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Debian, FF & NavyFed

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  Debian, FF & NavyFed Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2017-12-19 03:50 +0100
    Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-12-19 14:10 +0100
      Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-12-19 14:20 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:00 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:30 +0100
          Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-12-19 18:40 +0100
            Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-12-19 18:50 +0100
            Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 19:00 +0100
          Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:40 +0100
      Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-12-19 22:00 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Jack Dangler <tdldev@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 12:20 +0100
    Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2017-12-19 20:10 +0100
      Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Jack Dangler <tdldev@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:20 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2017-12-19 21:10 +0100
          Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2017-12-20 01:10 +0100
            Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2017-12-20 03:00 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-12-19 21:30 +0100
        Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-12-19 22:20 +0100
    Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 01:40 +0100
    Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Selim T. Erdoğan <selim@alumni.cs.utexas.edu> - 2017-12-20 14:10 +0100
      Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2017-12-21 18:50 +0100

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#190001 — Debian, FF & NavyFed

I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
    NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
what just we don't support Linux.
    Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
welcome.

What I've done:
    Having added Dan Pollock's hosts to my /etc/hosts recently I went
back to the bare bones version that only mentions my local hardware.
    My /etc/hosts.deny says:
ALL: PARANOID
ALL: ALL: rfc931: spawn(netstat -tup | mail -s "%d DENIED\: %c" root) &
as it has for years.
    I've a small homegrown firewall that's worked for years and allows
me to login to other credit unions and several stock brokers.
    I've saved and studied the page source and nothing sticks out
except that it's written for IE and has several *.css at the top I
can't see and lots of *.js scripts called.
    Over the years I've programmed in Fortran, Basic, Forth, Awk, 'C',
Dos, Unix and Linux scripting and Perl. My html doesn't extend much
further than anchors, lists and list items and <pre> </pre> and I've
never picked up Java or js.

As said above all pointers welcome.

Oh, Yeah,
Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686 GNU/Linux
I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M memory, my
video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I want most times.
FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)

Thanks, Mike
--
Where man is there will be trouble to the end of time,
if not of one sort, then of another."
    - Louis L'Amour

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#190009

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 06:10:28PM -0800, Mike McClain wrote:
> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.

Which browser?


...


...


Oh, you're one of those people who hides details in the Subject.  "FF"
meaning Firefox?  Upstream Firefox Quantum?  One of the firefox-esr
packages in Debian?  Iceweasel?  Which release of Debian?  Which Firefox
family package version?  What does it say in "About Firefox"?

> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
> what just we don't support Linux.

Sounds like either an advertisement or some kind of applet.

>     Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
> welcome.

1) Try Google Chrome.
1a) Try Chromium.
1b) Try upstream Firefox Quantum if you're using a package; try the
    packaged firefox-esr if you're using upstream.

2) Try installing Java (with Firefox applet support).
2a) Try installing Flash (with Firefox plugin support).

3) Try disabling any ad blocker type things you're using.
3b) Try adding an ad blocker type thing.

4) Try borrowing a Microsoft Windows machine.

5) Try a different bank.

The general rule of thumb in Internet life: the more important a web site
is, the more atrociously, horribly, indefensibly BAD it is.  Governments,
banks, hospitals -- all use the WORST possible web technology you've
never even heard of.  Always.  Every fucking time.

Count on it to work only in one specific (deprecated) version of MSIE
on one specific (past end of life) release of Windows.  When the stars
align correctly.

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#190010

I have a good friend who has been part of Navy Federal Credit Union for 
a while and he has had his credit card hacked and replaced three times 
this year.  Forewarned is forearmed and his email address if you want to 
check is kingtut41@gmail.com.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:06:47
> From: Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed
> Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:07:10 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 06:10:28PM -0800, Mike McClain wrote:
>> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
>> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
>
> Which browser?
>
>
> ...
>
>
> ...
>
>
> Oh, you're one of those people who hides details in the Subject.  "FF"
> meaning Firefox?  Upstream Firefox Quantum?  One of the firefox-esr
> packages in Debian?  Iceweasel?  Which release of Debian?  Which Firefox
> family package version?  What does it say in "About Firefox"?
>
>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
>> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>> what just we don't support Linux.
>
> Sounds like either an advertisement or some kind of applet.
>
>>     Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
>> welcome.
>
> 1) Try Google Chrome.
> 1a) Try Chromium.
> 1b) Try upstream Firefox Quantum if you're using a package; try the
>    packaged firefox-esr if you're using upstream.
>
> 2) Try installing Java (with Firefox applet support).
> 2a) Try installing Flash (with Firefox plugin support).
>
> 3) Try disabling any ad blocker type things you're using.
> 3b) Try adding an ad blocker type thing.
>
> 4) Try borrowing a Microsoft Windows machine.
>
> 5) Try a different bank.
>
> The general rule of thumb in Internet life: the more important a web site
> is, the more atrociously, horribly, indefensibly BAD it is.  Governments,
> banks, hospitals -- all use the WORST possible web technology you've
> never even heard of.  Always.  Every fucking time.
>
> Count on it to work only in one specific (deprecated) version of MSIE
> on one specific (past end of life) release of Windows.  When the stars
> align correctly.
>
>

-- 

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#190017

On 12/19/17, Richard Zimmerman <rzimmerman@riverbendhose.com> wrote:
>>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text
>>> turnes to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>>>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>>> what just we don't support Linux.
>
> Speaking as a programmer. You write websites for a standard, not a browser,
> language, operating system. This is what is wrong with the web. Wasn't Java
> supposed to be a web language? What is so wrong with html 5. In full
> disclosure, I only tabble in TCL programming now days, never dealt a lot
> with websites but html 5 looks pretty darn good to me.
>
> Windows, Mac, Linux, Unix shouldn't have to have anything to do with how
> webpages are programmed.
>
> If your website can not pass W3C standards, you don't need to be publishing
> it to the web.


COINCIDENTALLY.. From yesterday's W3C newsletter:

+++++++
HTML 5.2 is now a W3C Recommendation

   14 December 2017
   <https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/6696>

   "The Web Platform Working Group has published a W3C Recommendation
of the "HTML 5.2" specification that would obsolete the "HTML 5.1
Recommendation."
+++++++

Just a little ammunition to go along with any possible (anticipated)
advocacy.. :)

Accessibility, usability, user experience are some of the keywords
that get bantered around..

If and when they take you up on this... and they potentially run into questions:

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/

Not near as active as it used to be, but there are still some LONG
time active, quality folks monitoring that list regularly.

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

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#190020

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On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 8:25 AM, Richard Zimmerman <
rzimmerman@riverbendhose.com> wrote:

>
> I apologize about the rant but we need to put the blame where it belongs.
> Today's web programmers that don't crap about programming and their
> employers who don't do due diligence in TESTING, Quality Control and
> reliability of the product (Website) they create.
> This is coming from a programmer who programmed on a lot of different
> platforms over the years (1979-present)
> All I'm saying is 'in the day' computers costed money and you learned how
> to get the most out of them and do it reliably.


And today they fundamentally cost nothing in comparative terms, so software
is "throw-away". Hence your rant (your term, not mine ;-)


> To me OOP (Object oriented programming) meant chain loading basic programs
> or patching in and deleting out basic lines of code on the fly for the
> options the user selected.
>

Your instincts are correct, but the actual cause is economic, there are no
aesthetic considerations here. As your examples show
(nothing personal... ;-), the OOP "advances" took place in a crippled
context, hence their ineffectiveness.


> Last note, WHY do we have to keep reinventing the wheel (i.e. the next big
> great language). There are a lot of GOOD languages out there already.
> Companies, programmers and end users waste too much time chasing the next
> big thing and the latest and greatest.
>

I think that stage is effectively over. The End of Programming Language
Invention. Except for certain purposes in which a currently-known
programming language is required (eg. kernel, heavy-duty UI), not many of
those issues matter today. There is today only One Human
Interface and One Hardware Interface: WWW; Intel. This condition will never
be repaired, only wholly replaced by means of total obsolescence. Like a
phaeton being replaced by a Model T. Something entirely new.


> Today's language: Excel 2010 for me. As a programmer I haven't been
> 'gettin it (spreadsheets)' for years until I decided to look at it as a
> language. Now, picking up on it fairly easily. :)
>

Just because Forth is no longer a going concern, doesn't imply you have to
debase yourself. Move to a truly
"higher-level language", say Erlang or something like that. Stay out of the
gutter. It's your soul, dude.....
:-)


> Regards and have a blessed day,
>
> Richard
>
>

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#190021

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 11:28:35AM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> There is today only One Human
> Interface and One Hardware Interface: WWW; Intel.

Completely wrong.  You've heard of mobile phones?  Tablets?  Those
are the big thing right now, and their architecture is ARM, not
Intel.

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#190023

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:34:05 -0500
Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 11:28:35AM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > There is today only One Human
> > Interface and One Hardware Interface: WWW; Intel.  
> 
> Completely wrong.  You've heard of mobile phones?  Tablets?  Those
> are the big thing right now, and their architecture is ARM, not
> Intel.
> 

What is entertaining is that about 25 years ago, I did some ARM
assembler work, and the instruction set reminded me very strongly of
that of the DG Nova, from 1969...

-- 
Joe 

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#190025

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On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 11:28:35AM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > There is today only One Human
> > Interface and One Hardware Interface: WWW; Intel.
>
> Completely wrong.  You've heard of mobile phones?  Tablets?  Those
> are the big thing right now, and their architecture is ARM, not
> Intel.
>

Except that other things evolved simultaneously. As a result, the specifics
of the hardware platform are less
important, and programming language activity has moved on. In the meantime,
in my data center and yours,
EVERYTHING became Intel. No competitors in that space any longer,
fundamentally.

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#190037

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On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Richard Zimmerman <
rzimmerman@riverbendhose.com> wrote:

> >Just because Forth is no longer a going concern, doesn't imply you have
> to
>
> > debase yourself. Move to a truly "higher-level language", say Erlang or
>
> >something like that. Stay out of the gutter. It's your soul, dude.....
>
> >:-)
>
>
>
> ....To be quite honest, 5 years ago I left the Linux/Unix world to take a
> dream job but under the Windows umbrella. I love the job but have come to
> completely hate Windows anything.
>

Roger that.


> I sold my soul moving into a Windows platform but that is a fixable
> mistake.
>
> I think I’m going to go back to my gutter. Life was a LOT simpler there.
>

Recovery is possible ;-) Breathe deeply


> So with that said, seems like I just committed myself to learning systemd.
>

Hmm. So it is possible that you will come to hate Linux now too ;-))
You don't need to start your vacation on the Moon with a trip to Pluto. The
Moon is closer ;-)
Actually it's not quite that bad anymore, just annoying. And the
alternatives are maintained, you know....

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#190042

On 12/19/2017 06:06 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 06:10:28PM -0800, Mike McClain wrote:
>> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
>> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
> 
> Which browser?
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Oh, you're one of those people who hides details in the Subject.  "FF"
> meaning Firefox?  Upstream Firefox Quantum?  One of the firefox-esr
> packages in Debian?  Iceweasel?  Which release of Debian?  Which Firefox
> family package version?  What does it say in "About Firefox"?
> 
>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
>> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>> what just we don't support Linux.

Well-known and frequent response type from customer support staff
operating based on a script. I've been a Navy Federal customer for
around 40 years and found their customer support for banking operations
to be quite good. I've used their online banking application since it
became available, along with their online bill paying when it became
available.
> 
> Sounds like either an advertisement or some kind of applet.

They have applets for iPhone and Android, but not for PCs.
> 
>>     Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
>> welcome.
> 
> 1) Try Google Chrome.
> 1a) Try Chromium.
> 1b) Try upstream Firefox Quantum if you're using a package; try the
>     packaged firefox-esr if you're using upstream.

Their web application has worked for numerous versions of Google Chrome,
Chromium, and Firefox, on Debian Linux, for years. I have used it,
today, with the following:

Chromium: Version 63.0.3239.84 (Developer Build) built on Debian 9.3,
running on Debian 9.3 (64-bit) [chromium 63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1]

Firefox: 52.5.2 (64 bit) [firefox-esr 52.5.2esr-1~deb9u1]
> 
> 2) Try installing Java (with Firefox applet support).\

This may be necessary.
> 2a) Try installing Flash (with Firefox plugin support).

As far as I know, I do not have flash available; neither browser has any
hints of it.
> 
> 3) Try disabling any ad blocker type things you're using.

Adblock Plus is not a problem nor, I suspect, is absence of an ad
blocker (3b).
> 3b) Try adding an ad blocker type thing.
> 
> 4) Try borrowing a Microsoft Windows machine.

This is unnecessary.
> 
> 5) Try a different bank.

NFCU, by the last report I saw, is the largest credit union. In the
world. It probably did not happen because of sloppiness in either
operations or customer support.
> 
> The general rule of thumb in Internet life: the more important a web site
> is, the more atrociously, horribly, indefensibly BAD it is.  Governments,
> banks, hospitals -- all use the WORST possible web technology you've
> never even heard of.  Always.  Every fucking time.
> 
> Count on it to work only in one specific (deprecated) version of MSIE
> on one specific (past end of life) release of Windows.  When the stars
> align correctly.

In my experience, this is not the case for navyfederal.org.
> 
A careful look at exactly what the firewall mentioned in the initial
post might reveal something, especially as the presenting symptom
appears to be a hang, maybe waiting for something blocked.

Regards,
Tom Dial

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#190058

On 12/19/2017 03:31 PM, Tom Dial wrote:
>
> On 12/19/2017 06:06 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 06:10:28PM -0800, Mike McClain wrote:
>>> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
>>> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
>> Which browser?
>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> Oh, you're one of those people who hides details in the Subject.  "FF"
>> meaning Firefox?  Upstream Firefox Quantum?  One of the firefox-esr
>> packages in Debian?  Iceweasel?  Which release of Debian?  Which Firefox
>> family package version?  What does it say in "About Firefox"?
>>
>>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
>>> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>>>      NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>>> what just we don't support Linux.
> Well-known and frequent response type from customer support staff
> operating based on a script. I've been a Navy Federal customer for
> around 40 years and found their customer support for banking operations
> to be quite good. I've used their online banking application since it
> became available, along with their online bill paying when it became
> available.
>> Sounds like either an advertisement or some kind of applet.
> They have applets for iPhone and Android, but not for PCs.
>>>      Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
>>> welcome.
>> 1) Try Google Chrome.
>> 1a) Try Chromium.
>> 1b) Try upstream Firefox Quantum if you're using a package; try the
>>      packaged firefox-esr if you're using upstream.
> Their web application has worked for numerous versions of Google Chrome,
> Chromium, and Firefox, on Debian Linux, for years. I have used it,
> today, with the following:
>
> Chromium: Version 63.0.3239.84 (Developer Build) built on Debian 9.3,
> running on Debian 9.3 (64-bit) [chromium 63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1]
>
> Firefox: 52.5.2 (64 bit) [firefox-esr 52.5.2esr-1~deb9u1]
>> 2) Try installing Java (with Firefox applet support).\
> This may be necessary.
>> 2a) Try installing Flash (with Firefox plugin support).
> As far as I know, I do not have flash available; neither browser has any
> hints of it.
>> 3) Try disabling any ad blocker type things you're using.
> Adblock Plus is not a problem nor, I suspect, is absence of an ad
> blocker (3b).
>> 3b) Try adding an ad blocker type thing.
>>
>> 4) Try borrowing a Microsoft Windows machine.
> This is unnecessary.
>> 5) Try a different bank.
> NFCU, by the last report I saw, is the largest credit union. In the
> world. It probably did not happen because of sloppiness in either
> operations or customer support.
>> The general rule of thumb in Internet life: the more important a web site
>> is, the more atrociously, horribly, indefensibly BAD it is.  Governments,
>> banks, hospitals -- all use the WORST possible web technology you've
>> never even heard of.  Always.  Every fucking time.
>>
>> Count on it to work only in one specific (deprecated) version of MSIE
>> on one specific (past end of life) release of Windows.  When the stars
>> align correctly.
> In my experience, this is not the case for navyfederal.org.
> A careful look at exactly what the firewall mentioned in the initial
> post might reveal something, especially as the presenting symptom
> appears to be a hang, maybe waiting for something blocked.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
>
>
Check's in the mail, Tom. :)

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#190033

>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Debian, FF & NavyFed
>Local Time: December 18, 2017 7:10 PM
>UTC Time: December 19, 2017 2:10 AM
>From: mike.junk.46@att.net
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
>I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
> NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
> what just we don't support Linux.
> Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
> welcome.

My first suggestion is to get a new bank. If they can't be bothered to help you, you shouldn't be bothered to be their customer. Make sure you tell them that poor customer service is the reason why.

> Oh, Yeah,
> Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686 GNU/Linux
> I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M memory, my
> video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I want most times.
> FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)

My second suggestion is upgrade your machine. 250M memory is NOT enough to browse the modern web, even with FF ESR 52.3. You need a minimum of 1GB ram to comfortably use the modern web, preferably 2GB or more.

My third suggestion is try different web browsers. Chromium (or Google Chrome) should just work out-of-the-box even if FF does not. As others have suggested, you could also try upstream FF 57. You may need to install some working version of Java or (shudder) Flash, even though Flash is EOL.

My 2cp.

-Matt

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#190035

On 12/19/2017 02:05 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Debian, FF & NavyFed
>> Local Time: December 18, 2017 7:10 PM
>> UTC Time: December 19, 2017 2:10 AM
>> From: mike.junk.46@att.net
>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>
>> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
>> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
>> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>> NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>> what just we don't support Linux.
>> Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
>> welcome.
> My first suggestion is to get a new bank. If they can't be bothered to help you, you shouldn't be bothered to be their customer. Make sure you tell them that poor customer service is the reason why.
>
>> Oh, Yeah,
>> Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686 GNU/Linux
>> I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M memory, my
>> video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I want most times.
>> FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)
> My second suggestion is upgrade your machine. 250M memory is NOT enough to browse the modern web, even with FF ESR 52.3. You need a minimum of 1GB ram to comfortably use the modern web, preferably 2GB or more.
>
> My third suggestion is try different web browsers. Chromium (or Google Chrome) should just work out-of-the-box even if FF does not. As others have suggested, you could also try upstream FF 57. You may need to install some working version of Java or (shudder) Flash, even though Flash is EOL.
>
> My 2cp.
>
> -Matt
>
>
FF version won't likely help. I also have accounts there and have the 
same complaint. I have 2 debian, 1 mint, and 1 Ubuntu box all running 
differing flavors of FF and Chrome. So far, they all do it. The only 
browser I've seen work with it is IE or Edge. Producing web sites for a 
particular OS/Browser is so archaic it isn't even professional. This 
"institution" has a number of quirks about it, and this is just one of 
them. If you really want to waste an afternoon, try calling them and 
explaining the technology gap to them...

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#190040

>FF version won't likely help. I also have accounts there and have the
> same complaint. I have 2 debian, 1 mint, and 1 Ubuntu box all running
> differing flavors of FF and Chrome. So far, they all do it. The only
> browser I've seen work with it is IE or Edge. Producing web sites for a
> particular OS/Browser is so archaic it isn't even professional. This
> "institution" has a number of quirks about it, and this is just one of
> them. If you really want to waste an afternoon, try calling them and
> explaining the technology gap to them...

Well there is the fourth option, though its not ideal and doesn't really fix the problem:

Use some version of Windows in a VM (ideally Windows 7, but Windows 10 will be easier to acquire), or access your bank on a modern mobile device. I pretty much keep a Windows VM on standby specifically for the rare app that I must use that I cannot use on Linux (even via Wine).

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#190048

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 03:06:10PM -0500, Matthew Crews wrote:
>
> Well there is the fourth option, though its not ideal and doesn't really fix the problem:
>
> Use some version of Windows in a VM (ideally Windows 7, but Windows 10 will be easier to acquire), or access your bank on a modern mobile device. I pretty much keep a Windows VM on standby specifically for the rare app that I must use that I cannot use on Linux (even via Wine).

This is a really interesting proposition. Do you really think I can
run Windows in a VM under Linux with only 250M ram? I've still got my
Win2K CDs if so.

Thanks and happy holidays,
Mike
--
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
    - Winston Churchill

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#190050

>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: Debian, FF & NavyFed
>Local Time: December 19, 2017 4:21 PM
>UTC Time: December 19, 2017 11:21 PM
>From: mike.junk.46@att.net
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
>
>On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 03:06:10PM -0500, Matthew Crews wrote:
>>Well there is the fourth option, though its not ideal and doesn't really fix the problem:
>>Use some version of Windows in a VM (ideally Windows 7, but Windows 10 will be easier to acquire), or access your bank on a modern mobile device. I pretty much keep a Windows VM on standby specifically for the rare app that I must use that I cannot use on Linux (even via Wine).
>>
>> This is a really interesting proposition. Do you really think I can
>> run Windows in a VM under Linux with only 250M ram? I've still got my
>> Win2K CDs if so.

Realistic answer?

No, you cannot. Not just the ram, but your CPU. Virtualbox is (was) supported under Wheezy but Oracle recommends a minimum 512M of RAM, with realistically 2G or more.

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#190041

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:15:57 -0500
Jack Dangler <tdldev@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/19/2017 02:05 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: Debian, FF & NavyFed
> >> Local Time: December 18, 2017 7:10 PM
> >> UTC Time: December 19, 2017 2:10 AM
> >> From: mike.junk.46@att.net
> >> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> >>
> >> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last
> >> week. I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting
> >> your info. As soon they come back with and display my balance all
> >> the text turnes to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like
> >> that forever. NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's
> >> waiting for what just we don't support Linux.
> >> Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
> >> welcome.  
> > My first suggestion is to get a new bank. If they can't be bothered
> > to help you, you shouldn't be bothered to be their customer. Make
> > sure you tell them that poor customer service is the reason why. 
> >> Oh, Yeah,
> >> Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686
> >> GNU/Linux I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M
> >> memory, my video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I
> >> want most times. FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)  
> > My second suggestion is upgrade your machine. 250M memory is NOT
> > enough to browse the modern web, even with FF ESR 52.3. You need a
> > minimum of 1GB ram to comfortably use the modern web, preferably
> > 2GB or more.
> >
> > My third suggestion is try different web browsers. Chromium (or
> > Google Chrome) should just work out-of-the-box even if FF does not.
> > As others have suggested, you could also try upstream FF 57. You
> > may need to install some working version of Java or (shudder)
> > Flash, even though Flash is EOL.
> >
> > My 2cp.
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> >  
> FF version won't likely help. 

Maybe, maybe not. My bank website suddenly stopped working with FF-ESR,
as in: opening the login page crashed the tab, and I got that stupid
Mozilla error message. Repeatedly, with or without advert and
JavaScript plugins enabled.

I tried Konqueror, which didn't crash but didn't work to login. I tried
Midori, which worked. For a while, I just used Midori for that site,
then one day, that didn't work either. Neither FF-ESR nor Konqueror
worked. 

I tried FF on Win8, that was fine, so I installed upstream FF56 on
Debian and used that for banking. Unfortunately, the 'back' button
didn't work, making it unusable for most browsing, so I continued to use
FF-ESR(52) generally. Then one day, I tried FF-ESR on my bank site and
it worked, and has done for at least a month.

I haven't the slightest idea what has gone on, but I'm fairly sure
JavaScript is involved. There's no way a web page validator is going to
be able to test twenty or thirty bits of JS for correctness, and nobody
knows how to make web pages without it. More accurately, the various
web page design applications all use heaps of JS.

-- 
Joe

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#190043

On 12/19/2017 12:15 PM, Jack Dangler wrote:
> On 12/19/2017 02:05 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Debian, FF & NavyFed
>>> Local Time: December 18, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> UTC Time: December 19, 2017 2:10 AM
>>> From: mike.junk.46@att.net
>>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>>
>>> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
>>> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
>>> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
>>> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>>> NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
>>> what just we don't support Linux.
>>> Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
>>> welcome.
>> My first suggestion is to get a new bank. If they can't be bothered to
>> help you, you shouldn't be bothered to be their customer. Make sure
>> you tell them that poor customer service is the reason why.
>>
>>> Oh, Yeah,
>>> Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686 GNU/Linux
>>> I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M memory, my
>>> video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I want most times.
>>> FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)
>> My second suggestion is upgrade your machine. 250M memory is NOT
>> enough to browse the modern web, even with FF ESR 52.3. You need a
>> minimum of 1GB ram to comfortably use the modern web, preferably 2GB
>> or more.
>>
>> My third suggestion is try different web browsers. Chromium (or Google
>> Chrome) should just work out-of-the-box even if FF does not. As others
>> have suggested, you could also try upstream FF 57. You may need to
>> install some working version of Java or (shudder) Flash, even though
>> Flash is EOL.
>>
>> My 2cp.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
> FF version won't likely help. I also have accounts there and have the
> same complaint. I have 2 debian, 1 mint, and 1 Ubuntu box all running
> differing flavors of FF and Chrome. So far, they all do it. The only
> browser I've seen work with it is IE or Edge. Producing web sites for a
> particular OS/Browser is so archaic it isn't even professional. This
> "institution" has a number of quirks about it, and this is just one of
> them. If you really want to waste an afternoon, try calling them and
> explaining the technology gap to them...

Navy Federal's web banking has worked well with Linux (vanilla Debian)
and a variety of Chrome or Firefox browsers for years. It probably works
well on Apple systems as well. The claim that it works only with MS
browsers is simply incorrect.

On the other hand, if I were developing or managing a web application I
would not go out of my way to develop for, or test on, anything but
reasonably current Microsoft and Apple operating systems, along with
similarly current versions of standards-compliant browsers. To do so
makes no economic sense. I've used Linux-based systems pretty much
exclusively for about 20 years, but do not expect to be catered for when
nearly everyone else uses either Windows or Mac (or Android or iOS, for
which Navy Federal has banking applications that, at least on Android,
work decently).

Tom Dial

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#190049

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 18:10:28 -0800 Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net>
wrote:

> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
> what just we don't support Linux.
>     Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
> welcome.
> 
> What I've done:
>     Having added Dan Pollock's hosts to my /etc/hosts recently I went
> back to the bare bones version that only mentions my local hardware.
>     My /etc/hosts.deny says:
> ALL: PARANOID
> ALL: ALL: rfc931: spawn(netstat -tup | mail -s "%d DENIED\: %c" root)
> & as it has for years.
>     I've a small homegrown firewall that's worked for years and allows
> me to login to other credit unions and several stock brokers.
>     I've saved and studied the page source and nothing sticks out
> except that it's written for IE and has several *.css at the top I
> can't see and lots of *.js scripts called.
>     Over the years I've programmed in Fortran, Basic, Forth, Awk, 'C',
> Dos, Unix and Linux scripting and Perl. My html doesn't extend much
> further than anchors, lists and list items and <pre> </pre> and I've
> never picked up Java or js.
> 
> As said above all pointers welcome.
> 
> Oh, Yeah,
> Linux playground 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.89-2 i686 GNU/Linux
> I know Wheezy is old but it's old hardware, PIII, 250M memory, my
> video card hasn't been supported in years. Does what I want most
> times. FF ESR 52.3.0 (32 bit)

Here's part or most of the problem: Not old hardware, but old
software.  I run Wheezy (64-bit) on a box I built 10 years ago, but
upgraded some over the years, and I encounter the same problems.  I've
discovered that the problem sites are just looking for something that's
not available under Wheezy resulting in a continuous busy pointer. It
could be a Windows file, dll, etc that's being looked for or a newer
version of a Linux file, library, etc.  In most cases, if I run Stretch
or Windows XP in VirtualBox, everything works fine. So, it's not the
hardware.

I fear the only solution is upgrading your OS, etc., etc., but that's
probably not a viable option with your hardware.

B

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#190062

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 06:10:28PM -0800, Mike McClain wrote:
> I signed up with Navy Federal Credit Union online banking last week.
> I can login, I get the banner in color , it says getting your info.
> As soon they come back with and display my balance all the text turnes
> to grey and a twiddler pops up and it stays like that forever.
>     NFCU's tech support will not admit to knowing who's waiting for
> what just we don't support Linux.
>     Suggestions on how to fix this or how to approach it are most
> welcome.

Try pressing ESC, or clicking on various points in the window.

I sometimes see such overlaid stuff on websites and, on some, I can get 
it to go away, and see the underlying "real stuff", by such a press/click.

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