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removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then startx to start kde5

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  removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 14:00 +0200
    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 14:20 +0200
    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 14:20 +0200
      Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 14:30 +0200
        Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 14:50 +0200
          Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 16:00 +0200
            Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 16:10 +0200
              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-10-17 16:20 +0200
                Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 16:40 +0200
                  Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-10-17 16:40 +0200
                    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 18:40 +0200
                    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 21:10 +0200
                      Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 22:30 +0200
                  Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 18:40 +0200
                    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 19:50 +0200
                      Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-10-17 20:00 +0200
                        Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 20:40 +0200
                          Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-17 21:40 +0200
                            Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 22:00 +0200
                              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-17 23:50 +0200
                                Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-22 09:30 +0200
                        Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 20:50 +0200
                          Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-10-19 01:00 +0200
                        Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2017-10-18 11:20 +0200
                          Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă <I.M.Ciobica@gmail.com> - 2017-10-18 20:50 +0200
                            Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-10-18 21:20 +0200
                              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă <I.M.Ciobica@gmail.com> - 2017-10-18 21:50 +0200
                            Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-19 01:30 +0200
                              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-10-19 08:30 +0200
                              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-10-20 00:10 +0200
                                Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-20 10:50 +0200
                                  Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-10-21 18:40 +0200
                                    Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-10-21 21:50 +0200
              Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then  startx to start kde5 Stephane L <stephanel35@yahoo.fr> - 2017-10-17 16:20 +0200

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#188182

Felix Miata composed on 2017-10-17 17:40 (UTC-0400):

> Brian composed on 2017-10-17 20:54 (UTC+0100):

>> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 15:30:36 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

>>> Startx continues to work more or less as always in Mageia, just as in Debian,
>>> though not necessarily perfectly:
>>> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15662

>> Not "more or less" in Debian". Just rock solid,

> You might be right, but you might not be. I don't suppose you looked at that
> bug, because the bug is actually upstream, about gfxchips installed in PCs on
> which I have no version of Debian installed to confirm or deny broader impact
> than on just Mageia and Fedora. Without any stronger reason to add Debian, both
> the machines and the gfxchips are too old for me to bother trying.

Upstream bug just updated to include 9.2:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90572
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#187995

On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 13:56:37 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 06:42:04PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 11:38:40 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 19:32:11 (+0500), Alexan:der V. Makartsev wrote:
> > > > Deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work anymore at all, it
> > > > means it isn't supported anymore and should not be used.
> > > > Look it up, it was deprecated for quite some time.
> 
> >  https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8737 
> 
> So it's deprecated in Mageia GNU/Linux?  OK.  If I were a Mageia user (or
> had ever heard of it before today) that might carry some weight with me.
> 
> Just curious, what are Mageia users expected to use instead of startx if
> they want to start a traditional X session from a console?  Or is that
> no longer a supported configuration at all?  (By traditional, I mean
> a ~/.xsession or ~/.xinitrc file that contains "exec twm" or whatever
> window manager you prefer.)
> 
> Did they simply throw every window manager under the bus and say "Nope,
> sorry, you gotta run a desktop environment now"?

That is possible, but I'm not going to invest the time in finding out.
The purpose of my post was to point out Alexan:der V. Makartsev's use
of a post from elsewhere without acknowledgement and indicate Debian's
attitude towards startx (without going into detail).

I use startx. My users get xdm because they have poor memories for the
names of commands and like pretty pictures.

-- 
Brian.

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#188042

On 10/17/2017 11:42 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 13:56:37 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 06:42:04PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>>> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 11:38:40 -0500, David Wright wrote:
>>>> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 19:32:11 (+0500), Alexan:der V. Makartsev wrote:
>>>>> Deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work anymore at all, it
>>>>> means it isn't supported anymore and should not be used.
>>>>> Look it up, it was deprecated for quite some time.
>>
>>>   https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8737
>>
>> So it's deprecated in Mageia GNU/Linux?  OK.  If I were a Mageia user (or
>> had ever heard of it before today) that might carry some weight with me.
>>
>> Just curious, what are Mageia users expected to use instead of startx if
>> they want to start a traditional X session from a console?  Or is that
>> no longer a supported configuration at all?  (By traditional, I mean
>> a ~/.xsession or ~/.xinitrc file that contains "exec twm" or whatever
>> window manager you prefer.)
>>
>> Did they simply throw every window manager under the bus and say "Nope,
>> sorry, you gotta run a desktop environment now"?
> 
> That is possible, but I'm not going to invest the time in finding out.
> The purpose of my post was to point out Alexan:der V. Makartsev's use
> of a post from elsewhere without acknowledgement and indicate Debian's
> attitude towards startx (without going into detail).
> 
> I use startx. My users get xdm because they have poor memories for the
> names of commands and like pretty pictures.

I use startx a lot because I install a lot of systems from a base 
install and after installing drivers, firmware and desktop I can startx 
and do my desktop setup before rebooting or logging out.  I'm sure there 
are other ways like starting sddm or start plasma or? But I know and use 
startx.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.10.5 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda7
Registered Linux User #380263

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#188007

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 18/10/17 06:56, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 06:42:04PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 11:38:40 -0500, David Wright wrote:
>>> On Tue 17 Oct 2017 at 19:32:11 (+0500), Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
>>>> Deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work anymore at all, it
>>>> means it isn't supported anymore and should not be used.
>>>> Look it up, it was deprecated for quite some time.
> 
>>  https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8737 
> 
> So it's deprecated in Mageia GNU/Linux?  OK.  If I were a Mageia user (or
> had ever heard of it before today) that might carry some weight with me.
> 
> Just curious, what are Mageia users expected to use instead of startx if
> they want to start a traditional X session from a console?  Or is that
> no longer a supported configuration at all?  (By traditional, I mean
> a ~/.xsession or ~/.xinitrc file that contains "exec twm" or whatever
> window manager you prefer.)
> 
> Did they simply throw every window manager under the bus and say "Nope,
> sorry, you gotta run a desktop environment now"?

Now I'm curious - assuming Mageia has deprecated startx, how does that
impact using a plain window manager? It's perfectly possible to run twm
or whatever when logging in to a display manager, no? I'm sure I used to
do that with xdm and icewm.

Richard

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#188028

On 18-10-2017, at 22h 17'14", Richard Hector wrote about "Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then startx to start kde5"
> > 
> > Did they simply throw every window manager under the bus and say "Nope,
> > sorry, you gotta run a desktop environment now"?
> 
> Now I'm curious - assuming Mageia has deprecated startx, how does that
> impact using a plain window manager? It's perfectly possible to run twm
> or whatever when logging in to a display manager, no? I'm sure I used to
> do that with xdm and icewm.
> 

I never ran an desktop manager, nor I used startx. I always used a
dm (xdm, kdm, etc.) and fvwm. In my ~/.xsession file the last line
is "fvwm2" (no quotes). Before that I set the background, set the
keyboard (with xmodmap), start the ssh agent, start rclock, etc.

I think kdm has an option to overlook ~/.xsession and start another
wm. Set it to default, which means "read the config files".

I never understood the need for desktop managers. I use Debian since
hamm and Linux/Unix since 1995. My take is that desktop managers are
for people more used to microsoft OS'. Why do I need to click on
something when the xterm I type in can call any program I need?...

Ionel

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#188032

On Wed 18 Oct 2017 at 20:47:08 (+0200), Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă wrote:
> On 18-10-2017, at 22h 17'14", Richard Hector wrote about "Re: removing of sddm (debian 9 -kde5) to start in console mode then startx to start kde5"
> > > 
> > > Did they simply throw every window manager under the bus and say "Nope,
> > > sorry, you gotta run a desktop environment now"?
> > 
> > Now I'm curious - assuming Mageia has deprecated startx, how does that
> > impact using a plain window manager? It's perfectly possible to run twm
> > or whatever when logging in to a display manager, no? I'm sure I used to
> > do that with xdm and icewm.
> > 
> 
> I never ran an desktop manager, nor I used startx. I always used a
> dm (xdm, kdm, etc.) and fvwm. In my ~/.xsession file the last line
> is "fvwm2" (no quotes). Before that I set the background, set the
> keyboard (with xmodmap), start the ssh agent, start rclock, etc.
> 
> I think kdm has an option to overlook ~/.xsession and start another
> wm. Set it to default, which means "read the config files".
> 
> I never understood the need for desktop managers. I use Debian since
> hamm and Linux/Unix since 1995. My take is that desktop managers are
> for people more used to microsoft OS'. Why do I need to click on
> something when the xterm I type in can call any program I need?...

[ It might be clearer to write "Desktop Environment" (or DE) instead
of "desktop manager" because of the latter's having the same initials
as Display Manager (or DM). ]

That said, what are the advantages of running a DM in your case,
compared with using startx? One big disadvantage has already been
mentioned (that Linux Consoles rely on particular drivers far less
than X does).

Cheers,
David.

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#188036

> 
> [ It might be clearer to write "Desktop Environment" (or DE) instead
> of "desktop manager" because of the latter's having the same initials
> as Display Manager (or DM). ]

You are right.

> That said, what are the advantages of running a DM in your case,
> compared with using startx? One big disadvantage has already been
> mentioned (that Linux Consoles rely on particular drivers far less
> than X does).
> 

I use more than one X session. startx would work just as good but then
I will not know how to commute between sessions. The Ctrl-Alt-Fx or
Shift-Fx would not work since startx starts the X on a higher
terminal... If I press Ctrl-Alt-F1 I do not have a way to return to X.
I have to kill the X and type startx again. I never studied startx
carefully, I just rely on xdm that I fully configured. 

Ionel

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#188044

Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă composed on 2017-10-18 20:47 (UTC+0200):

> I never understood the need for desktop managers. I use Debian since
> hamm and Linux/Unix since 1995. My take is that desktop managers are
> for people more used to microsoft OS'. Why do I need to click on
> something when the xterm I type in can call any program I need?... 

Finding a wanted app to run from a classified tree list of 30 or 40 or 50 or
more applications is easier for most people than remembering the name and any
required startup options to type, both for those uncommonly used, and even for
the commonly used ones if there are more than a scant few such. 2 or 3 or 4
clicks to start one up is typically easier than typing 4, 5, 6, 7 or more
characters, or searching command history more than a few entries back. It's a
nice bonus in some DEs that automatically remember and reopen apps, their
content states, and their window sizes and positions.

For some, the microscopic default text size and fractional default proportion of
screen area (80x25, using as little as 1/16 or less of total screen space) of
xterm windows impedes their use for anything.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#188047

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Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 07:22:53PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă composed on 2017-10-18 20:47 (UTC+0200):
> 
> > I never understood the need for desktop managers. I use Debian since
> > hamm and Linux/Unix since 1995. My take is that desktop managers are
> > for people more used to microsoft OS'. Why do I need to click on
> > something when the xterm I type in can call any program I need?... 
> 
> Finding a wanted app to run from a classified tree list of 30 or 40 or 50 or
> more applications is easier for most people than remembering the name and any
> required startup options to type, both for those uncommonly used, and even for
> the commonly used ones if there are more than a scant few such.

All generalizations suck.

My experience is that there's some tension between "easy to learn for a
newcomer" and "ergonomic for an experienced user". And my hunch is that,
in the last decennium, the "newcomer" part has been overemphasized to
a paradoxical level, where even the newcomers aren't treated very well
(an over-padded desktop environment which behaves erratically because
their creators don't master its exploding complexity[1] *is*
user-unfriendly, after all).

I think we should strive for a continuum which welcomes newcomers but
offers them a path towards experienced users they may follow if they
wish. Baroque complexity and arbitrary barriers (here users, there
sysadmins, yonder app programmers and far out, system programmers)
don't help.

The worst part is that nowadays there are strong financial incentives
in keeping users dumb. Watch the silos of Apple, Microsoft, Google,
Facebook et al. to see what I mean.

Cheers

[1] And no, I don't think Gnome's or KDE's creators are idiots, on
   the contrary. But I definitely believe they've fallen to one of
   the programmers "virtues" (Larry Wall): hubris.

- -- tomás
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#188092

On Wed 18 Oct 2017 at 19:22:53 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă composed on 2017-10-18 20:47 (UTC+0200):
> 
> > I never understood the need for desktop managers. I use Debian since
> > hamm and Linux/Unix since 1995. My take is that desktop managers are
> > for people more used to microsoft OS'. Why do I need to click on
> > something when the xterm I type in can call any program I need?... 
> 
> Finding a wanted app to run from a classified tree list of 30 or 40 or 50 or
> more applications is easier for most people than remembering the name and any
> required startup options to type, both for those uncommonly used, and even for
> the commonly used ones if there are more than a scant few such. 2 or 3 or 4
> clicks to start one up is typically easier than typing 4, 5, 6, 7 or more
> characters, or searching command history more than a few entries back.

Do you need a DE to do that? What's the difference between that and
the Debian menus that I occasionally use?

> It's a
> nice bonus in some DEs that automatically remember and reopen apps, their
> content states, and their window sizes and positions.

That's more debatable. Some people like that, some like me prefer
a particular setup whenever I start X, some use Place with Mouseclick,
etc. But there appear to be separate packages to handle this, like
lxsession and devilspie.

> For some, the microscopic default text size and fractional default proportion of
> screen area (80x25, using as little as 1/16 or less of total screen space) of
> xterm windows impedes their use for anything.

I've seen reports of fonts getting tinier as resolutions increase,
and not just on linux. I don't know how hard or easy it is to provide
sensible defaults for every application on every system, and in any
case circumstances vary. People with poor sight want large characters,
others want more characters on the screen. In the specific case of
xterm, I want and have both, and different fonts too, just by setting
different commandline options and Xresources. I can change them on
the fly too, as I can also for VCs. I don't degrade the resolution
to make them bigger (as suggested earlier in the month). It's mainly
just a matter at looking at configurations.

Cheers,
David.

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#188118

David Wright composed on 2017-10-19 17:00 (UTC-0500):

> On Wed 18 Oct 2017 at 19:22:53 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:

>> Finding a wanted app to run from a classified tree list of 30 or 40 or 50 or
>> more applications is easier for most people than remembering the name and any
>> required startup options to type, both for those uncommonly used, and even for
>> the commonly used ones if there are more than a scant few such. 2 or 3 or 4
>> clicks to start one up is typically easier than typing 4, 5, 6, 7 or more
>> characters, or searching command history more than a few entries back.

> Do you need a DE to do that? What's the difference between that and
> the Debian menus that I occasionally use? 

Don't I? One of the few positive paradigms to come out of Redmond was the button
at the lower left corner of the screen to open a tree-structured list of
applications and utilities available to run. I've yet to see a materially better
one that that derived from it for KDE2 or 3 that added a search box.

>> It's a
>> nice bonus in some DEs that automatically remember and reopen apps, their
>> content states, and their window sizes and positions.

> That's more debatable. Some people like that, some like me prefer
> a particular setup whenever I start X, some use Place with Mouseclick,
> etc. But there appear to be separate packages to handle this, like
> lxsession and devilspie. 

I need all the help I can get to pickup where I left off when interrupted and
forced to end the session before the WIP can be completed.

>> For some, the microscopic default text size and fractional default proportion of
>> screen area (80x25, using as little as 1/16 or less of total screen space) of
>> xterm windows impedes their use for anything.

> I've seen reports of fonts getting tinier as resolutions increase,
> and not just on linux. I don't know how hard or easy it is to provide
> sensible defaults for every application on every system, and in any
> case circumstances vary. People with poor sight want large characters,
> others want more characters on the screen. In the specific case of
> xterm, I want and have both, and different fonts too, just by setting
> different commandline options and Xresources. 

It's not resolutions per se, but resolution increases have considerable tendency
to carry higher pixel density, notwithstanding the considerable average density
differences between laptop displays and desktop displays. The problem comes from
several sources:

1-Inconsistency from developers, some who size in pixels, and some who size in
points. Points are resolution dependent, so are in principle unaffected by
density. Pixels are entirely independent, so the higher the density, the smaller
the container into which a fixed number of pixels fit.

2-As you imply, some want a bigger screen to provide for more stuff to fit,
while others want the same stuff to simply be bigger, and yet others want a
mixture of both.

3-Overall, computer developers are a youthful bunch, so their eyesight is better
than average, while their collective wisdom has a lot of growing yet to do. Try
to imagine anyone getting into computer development whose eyesight is materially
poorer than average. That can be lot of pain to suffer day-in, day-out working
on screens designed for use by people with better vision. There simply isn't
much of it happening.

4-Hardware manufacturers are caught in the middle. They don't stay in business
without making a profit. They know how to make higher quality product, but
they're stifled by returns from those who after getting the product home
determine their bigger screen makes things tinier and harder to use. So they
limit the selection of high quality product, producing mostly native resolutions
in physical sizes that produce densities near the arbitrary software standard of
96 DPI. 1366x768 in this day and age is hard to imagine, given that 1024x768
dates back over three decades, and 1080p dates back more than two decades. Yet,
this is the resolution of both a typical 32" TV screen and a laptop of 15".
Large PC screens ought to have an *average* density of at least 200 DPI by now,
and have the software automatically doing the computations necessary to allow
people to enjoy better quality and overall experience.

5-Much of development incorporates overwhelming perfectionism, a need to have
results look "just right", not necessarily with any wisdom of the perspective of
those with different eyes. Over-control is typical, limiting or even eliminating
the ability to accommodate differing capabilities and/or environments. Computers
are good at calculating, but developers routinely limit that utility. One of the
most blatant of such constraints can be seen in Xorg:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115
Please add option to avoid forcing of 96dpi

an offshoot from:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705
xserver forces 96 DPI on randr-1.2-capable drivers, overriding correct autodetection

Xorg, as did XFree86, when broken hardware or firmware don't interfere,
automatically calculates a display's size and resolution, resulting in a density
capable of use by applications to display objects sized to accurate physical
dimensions. That calculation is rarely used, as can be seen by examination of
Xorg's logs. Accurate display density is reported, but in most cases it is
"corrected" to a value fixed at 96 DPI, even when actual density is several
times that. Too many different methods have been concocted for those who need
and/or want it to workaround that disparity, instead of letting the computer do
the computing.

It's already been something like 5 years since web developers monkeywrenched CSS
in similar manner. Standards expunged the physical lengths (cm, in, mm, pt,
etc.) from conforming web browsers, keeping the nominal length names, but
morphing them into logical units rather than physical. The only way to guarantee
a physical size is to have total actual physical control of the hardware and of
the software settings, and a display that does in fact have the same physical
density as that applied by the server, usually 96 DPI.

Relatively recently we got an additional impediment to functional workarounds
courtesy of RedHat management through Gnome:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142
Recent change breaks HiDPI setup based on calculated or forced DPI

Those who find it desirable or necessary to manually configure the server
instead of accepting random circumstance must provide a corresponding additional
manual parameter otherwise unnecessary if they want their GTK applications
obeying those configurations.

This is nuts, and more seriously and circularly affects those already limited in
ability. If you can't see tiny stuff in trying to accommodate (or personalize),
how do you make the adjustments required to enable the accommodation?
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#188172

On Fri 20 Oct 2017 at 04:42:53 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2017-10-19 17:00 (UTC-0500):
> 
> > On Wed 18 Oct 2017 at 19:22:53 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> Finding a wanted app to run from a classified tree list of 30 or 40 or 50 or
> >> more applications is easier for most people than remembering the name and any
> >> required startup options to type, both for those uncommonly used, and even for
> >> the commonly used ones if there are more than a scant few such. 2 or 3 or 4
> >> clicks to start one up is typically easier than typing 4, 5, 6, 7 or more
> >> characters, or searching command history more than a few entries back.
> 
> > Do you need a DE to do that? What's the difference between that and
> > the Debian menus that I occasionally use? 
> 
> Don't I?

No.

> One of the few positive paradigms to come out of Redmond was the button
> at the lower left corner of the screen to open a tree-structured list of
> applications and utilities available to run. I've yet to see a materially better
> one that that derived from it for KDE2 or 3 that added a search box.

Which is what the Debian menu gives you. If you want the tree to look like
the windows® one, just initiate it (for me it's a left click in the root
window, ie outside any application's window) near the lower left corner.

> >> It's a
> >> nice bonus in some DEs that automatically remember and reopen apps, their
> >> content states, and their window sizes and positions.
> 
> > That's more debatable. Some people like that, some like me prefer
> > a particular setup whenever I start X, some use Place with Mouseclick,
> > etc. But there appear to be separate packages to handle this, like
> > lxsession and devilspie. 
> 
> I need all the help I can get to pickup where I left off when interrupted and
> forced to end the session before the WIP can be completed.
> 
> >> For some, the microscopic default text size and fractional default proportion of
> >> screen area (80x25, using as little as 1/16 or less of total screen space) of
> >> xterm windows impedes their use for anything.
> 
> > I've seen reports of fonts getting tinier as resolutions increase,
> > and not just on linux. I don't know how hard or easy it is to provide
> > sensible defaults for every application on every system, and in any
> > case circumstances vary. People with poor sight want large characters,
> > others want more characters on the screen. In the specific case of
> > xterm, I want and have both, and different fonts too, just by setting
> > different commandline options and Xresources. 
> 
> It's not resolutions per se, but resolution increases have considerable tendency
> to carry higher pixel density, notwithstanding the considerable average density
> differences between laptop displays and desktop displays. The problem comes from
> several sources:

… which have to do with how X is configured, not whether you use a DE.
Your point about the size of the "default" size of xterm (where "default"
depends where you're coming from) is easily changed in any WM, and the
ability to correct or circumvent it doesn't depend on running a DE.

In the earlier thread I alluded to, there was no need (with
installation of a couple of packages and a font change) for
the OP even to bother with running X to fix their original
problem.

Cheers,
David.

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#188175

David Wright composed on 2017-10-21 11:34 (UTC-0500):

> On Fri 20 Oct 2017 at 04:42:53 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:

>> It's not resolutions per se, but resolution increases have considerable tendency
>> to carry higher pixel density, notwithstanding the considerable average density
>> differences between laptop displays and desktop displays. The problem comes from
>> several sources:

> … which have to do with how X is configured, not whether you use a DE.
> Your point about the size of the "default" size of xterm (where "default"
> depends where you're coming from) is easily changed in any WM 

A point I was trying to make was that "easily" it is not, unless your eyes are
as good as, and your hardware matches that of, those who selected the defaults
provided by the applicable software. Shrinking the size can be many orders of
magnitude easier than bringing up to a legible size, because making a change
depends on discovering and utilizing the process of change being legible in the
first place.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#187973

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

OK thank you AlexanderI will try this...
bests regards
stephane
 

    Le Mardi 17 octobre 2017 16h05, Alexander V. Makartsev <avbetev@gmail.com> a écrit :
 

  I think "startx" command is deprecated now and you shouldn't use it anymore. Right way to start DE is by starting display manager service.
 This command should work in your case:
     $ sudo systemctl start sddm.service
 
 
 
 On 17.10.2017 18:55, Stephane L wrote:
  
  Hi, Alexander I Want to boot debian 9 in multi user mode (console),then do something then and then to startx kde5/xorg with startx as I do with debian8/kde4
   
 
      Le Mardi 17 octobre 2017 14h46, Alexander V. Makartsev <avbetev@gmail.com> a écrit :
  
 
    What are you trying to archieve? If you want to start DE you better launch it by starting your display manager (gdm in my case):
     $ sudo systemctl start gdm.service
 
 
  On 17.10.2017 17:24, Stephane L wrote:
  
 do I need too to make a .xinitrc with something like /usr/bin/startkde ? 
  
 
      Le Mardi 17 octobre 2017 14h11, Alexander V. Makartsev <avbetev@gmail.com> a écrit :
  
 
    Assuming you have systemd, you have to change final target from  graphical to multi-user.
 This shows possible targets:
     $ sudo systemctl list-units --type=target 
 
 This will show what target is default:
     $ sudo systemctl get-default
 
 This will set default target to "console mode" you want:
     $ sudo systemctl set-default multi-user.target
 
 This will redo the changes if you ever will want to start DE  by default:
     $ sudo systemctl set-default graphical.target
 
 You have to reboot to apply changes.
 
 
 
  On 17.10.2017 16:59, Stephane L wrote:
  
  Hi I have tried to remove sddm from /etc/init.d but  it starts always with sddm.I want to boot my debian 9 in console mode  and do startx to launch kde5 as I do with debian 8  and kde4.does anyone know exactly how to do that ?  
  
 -- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

   
 
      
  
 -- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

   
 
      
 
 -- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

 

   

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