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Replace systemd

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  Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:10 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:30 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jason Wittlin-Cohen <jwittlincohen@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 02:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-07-04 07:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 20:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 00:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 01:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-07-05 03:00 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 14:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:30 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2017-07-05 10:00 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 10:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 17:40 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Jim Ohlstein <jim@mailman-hosting.com> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 07:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com> - 2017-07-05 16:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 16:40 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 23:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd chris <tknchris@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 00:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 06:30 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-03 23:10 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 15:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 16:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                  Re: Re: Replace systemd Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-07-07 05:40 +0200
                    Re: Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 07:10 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-07-03 23:40 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-05 01:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:50 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 12:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 22:20 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 00:50 +0200
                      Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-07 16:10 +0200
                        Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 18:10 +0200
                          Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
                            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 23:40 +0200
                        Re: Replace systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 17:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-05 18:40 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-05 19:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 05:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:20 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:00 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-06 14:30 +0200
                      Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-06 16:20 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 15:40 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 11:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 05:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 07:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2017-07-06 08:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 10:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
            And the UNasked questions are? - was [Re: Replace systemd] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-07-06 11:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-07-09 13:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-07-09 15:30 +0200

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#183167

On 07/03/2017 01:41 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:

>> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
>
> Have a look at https://devuan.org/.

A couple of hours ago this was Debian Wheezy with the 
kde-plasma-desktop.  Now it's Devuan Jessie and kde-plasma-desktop and 
the only systemd is "libsystemd0" and it seems to be required for kde. 
This is a very smart system and an easy upgrade. I think some of Linux 
best developers are working on Devuan.

Cheers,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Devuan Jessie - KDE 4.14.2 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda16
Registered Linux User #380263

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#183194

On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 09:33:16PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>A couple of hours ago this was Debian Wheezy with the kde-plasma-desktop.  Now 
>it's Devuan Jessie and kde-plasma-desktop and the only systemd is 
>"libsystemd0" and it seems to be required for kde.  This is a very smart 
>system and an easy upgrade. I think some of Linux best developers are working 
>on Devuan.

This message is the very epitome of Poe's Law. You've switched to Devuan,
a distribution which has the sole purpose of excising systemd from itself
in its entirety, just to run a system with libsystemd0 installed anyway?
And you're a full Debian release behind at the same time!

Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
posting here anymore, as is right and proper.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#183195

On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:02PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
> this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
> posting here anymore, as is right and proper.

It's perfectly possible to use both Debian and Devuan. I personally have 4
PCs just in my apartment (not counting the company laptop), one of which
runs Debian, as does my VPS. Another runs Ubuntu (required to keep it under
warranty, I'm not a big fan) and a third Puppy Linux. 
-- 
Carl Fink                           nitpicking@nitpicking.com 

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

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#183197

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 09:48:07AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:02PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> > Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
> > this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
> > posting here anymore, as is right and proper.
> 
> It's perfectly possible to use both Debian and Devuan [...]

Thanks for reminding us of that :-)

Yeah, sadly the scars from The Big Flamewar still itch, and the back-and-
forths tend to transport some amount of snide and bitterness under a
polite cover[1]. I won't exclude myself from that, mind you!

This is the main thing I dislike about Devuan. IMHO their effort would
be better spent whithin Debian, making and keeping the other inits in a
viable condition, but hey, it's their choice, and it's free software
(meaning that Debian might profit from their work anyway, or that even
(gasp!) collaboration is possible, as has been between Ubuntu and Debian).

Cheers

[1] I think this polite cover still has a positive function!
- -- tomás
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#183230

On 07/05/2017 07:18 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 09:48:07AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:02PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
>>> this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
>>> posting here anymore, as is right and proper.
>>
>> It's perfectly possible to use both Debian and Devuan [...]
>
> Thanks for reminding us of that :-)
>
> Yeah, sadly the scars from The Big Flamewar still itch, and the back-and-
> forths tend to transport some amount of snide and bitterness under a
> polite cover[1]. I won't exclude myself from that, mind you!
>
> This is the main thing I dislike about Devuan. IMHO their effort would
> be better spent whithin Debian, making and keeping the other inits in a
> viable condition, but hey, it's their choice, and it's free software
> (meaning that Debian might profit from their work anyway, or that even
> (gasp!) collaboration is possible, as has been between Ubuntu and Debian).

Is it possible that Devuan is becoming more Debian and Debian is 
becoming less Debian? What do you say to that? Hypothetically speaking 
of course. :)

Just maybe, all the GOOD Debian developers are being ran off by 
Red/Black Hat Hypocrites who disguise themselves as Penguins. Is that 
posable? Hypothetically speaking of course. :)

> Cheers

Yes, cheers!

> [1] I think this polite cover still has a positive function!

You bet ya!
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.8.7 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda14
Registered Linux User #380263

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#183236

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:44PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

[...]

> Is it possible that Devuan is becoming more Debian and Debian is
> becoming less Debian? What do you say to that? Hypothetically
> speaking of course. :)

Don't think so, no.

> Just maybe, all the GOOD Debian developers are being ran off by
> Red/Black Hat Hypocrites who disguise themselves as Penguins. Is
> that posable? Hypothetically speaking of course. :)

Not helpful, I think. Perhaps it was meant tongue-in-cheek, but
not the kind of humor I enjoy.

regards
- -- t
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=FK54
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#183248

On 07/05/2017 02:23 PM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:44PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Is it possible that Devuan is becoming more Debian and Debian is
>> becoming less Debian? What do you say to that? Hypothetically
>> speaking of course. :)
>
> Don't think so, no.
>
>> Just maybe, all the GOOD Debian developers are being ran off by
>> Red/Black Hat Hypocrites who disguise themselves as Penguins. Is
>> that posable? Hypothetically speaking of course. :)
>
> Not helpful, I think. Perhaps it was meant tongue-in-cheek, but
> not the kind of humor I enjoy.

You're damned right it's not funny.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.8.7 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda14
Registered Linux User #380263

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#183237

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

systemd: Make Linux Great Again! (c)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 07/05/2017 07:18 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 09:48:07AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 01:56:02PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
>>>> this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
>>>> posting here anymore, as is right and proper.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's perfectly possible to use both Debian and Devuan [...]
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for reminding us of that :-)
>>
>> Yeah, sadly the scars from The Big Flamewar still itch, and the back-and-
>> forths tend to transport some amount of snide and bitterness under a
>> polite cover[1]. I won't exclude myself from that, mind you!
>>
>> This is the main thing I dislike about Devuan. IMHO their effort would
>> be better spent whithin Debian, making and keeping the other inits in a
>> viable condition, but hey, it's their choice, and it's free software
>> (meaning that Debian might profit from their work anyway, or that even
>> (gasp!) collaboration is possible, as has been between Ubuntu and Debian).
>>
>
> Is it possible that Devuan is becoming more Debian and Debian is becoming
> less Debian? What do you say to that? Hypothetically speaking of course. :)
>
> Just maybe, all the GOOD Debian developers are being ran off by Red/Black
> Hat Hypocrites who disguise themselves as Penguins. Is that posable?
> Hypothetically speaking of course. :)
>
> Cheers
>>
>
> Yes, cheers!
>
> [1] I think this polite cover still has a positive function!
>>
>
> You bet ya!
> --
> Jimmy Johnson
>
> Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.8.7 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda14
> Registered Linux User #380263
>
>

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#183249

On 07/05/2017 12:38 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 07/05/2017 05:56 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 09:33:16PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>> A couple of hours ago this was Debian Wheezy with the
>>> kde-plasma-desktop.  Now it's Devuan Jessie and kde-plasma-desktop and
>>> the only systemd is "libsystemd0" and it seems to be required for
>>> kde.  This is a very smart system and an easy upgrade. I think some of
>>> Linux best developers are working on Devuan.
>>
>> This message is the very epitome of Poe's Law. You've switched to Devuan,
>> a distribution which has the sole purpose of excising systemd from itself
>> in its entirety, just to run a system with libsystemd0 installed anyway?
>> And you're a full Debian release behind at the same time!

Was the word you where looking for "exorcise"?

And each year Debian only gets better, until it can't handle your new 
hardware any longer and then you have to upgrade.

..and it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle..

>> Anyway, since you are no longer a Debian user, you are unlikely to see
>> this message, as surely you have dutifully unsubscribed and will not be
>> posting here anymore, as is right and proper.

Dear Mr Red Hat Developer, Would you like to be my friend on Facebook 
and Twitter?

I'm The Linux Tester with currently more that 50 Linux installs and I'll 
run what ever Linux I want and respond to a thread as I see fit.

Have a good day! :P
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Buster - KDE Plasma 5.8.7 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda14
Registered Linux User #380263

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#183267

On 07/04/2017 09:33 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 07/03/2017 01:41 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
> 
>>> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
>>
>> Have a look at https://devuan.org/.
> 
> A couple of hours ago this was Debian Wheezy with the 
> kde-plasma-desktop.  Now it's Devuan Jessie and kde-plasma-desktop and 
> the only systemd is "libsystemd0" and it seems to be required for kde. 
> This is a very smart system and an easy upgrade. I think some of Linux 
> best developers are working on Devuan.

To be fair I found a problem with that system that I do not have with 
Debian Jessie and have not yet fixed it, I wanted to kick back and watch 
a dvd movie and the Devuan Jessie system would not acknowledge that 
there was a dvd movie in the drive, even with the drive in fstab, but 
will see a iso image on a dvd when I put that into the drive, anyways 
it's something to tinker with.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Sid/Testing - KDE Plasma 5.8.7 - Linux 4.9 - EXT4 at sda15
Registered Linux User #380263

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#183056

On 03-07-17, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote:
> I run Debian on my laptops and several servers.
> 
> On my laptop I've had several recent occasions when it has been irksome
> to try and find the cause of a service not starting or shutting down,
> and I've concluded that I'd like to move away from systemd as I don't
> like the binary log.
> 
> This isn't a conceptual/design issue as I don't know enough of init
> fundamentals to make an informed judgement. It also isn't related to the
> recent Slashdot article about DNS crashes and root privs escalation.
> https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-allowed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years
> or the (possibly incorrectly reported) statements by Lennart Poettering
> noted at "What are the pros/cons of Upstart and systemd?"
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/5877/what-are-the-pros-cons-of-upstart-and-systemd
> 
> I additionally find the configuration and documentation off-putting.
> These are trivial points, but the classic /etc config files seem to be
> being replaced with ini style files with non-explicit defaults. The
> documentation is wordy and also sometimes obtuse. e.g. "To disable a
> configuration file supplied by the vendor, the recommended way is to
> place a symlink to /dev/null in the configuration directory" and
> repeated references to "vendors" (which is almost certainly the wrong
> word).
> 
> Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use
> an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My
> laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore.
> 
> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
> 
> Thanks
> Rory
> 

You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained here:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html

If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian without
systemd, I do not have personal experience with those, but I'm sure that
you will get few hints.

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#183284

Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
> 
> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained here:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
> 
> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian without
> systemd, I do not have personal experience with those, but I'm sure that
> you will get few hints.
> 
init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and how
they are treated, I do not trust any part of it.
Neither resolved, logind, etc...
Too many critical bugs found in them and treated by the upstream
developpers with only contempt for the people reporting them
(see https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237#issuecomment-312458445)

This behaviour on a critical component is mere madness.
And it is NOT possible to use debian without any part of systemd.

For me debian stretch is inherently unsecure because of this and I am in
the process of replacing it on any machine I own (mostly by FreeBSD), I
may try a gentoo or a devuan.

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#183296

	Hi.

On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
> > 
> > You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained here:
> > 
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
> > 
> > If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian without
> > systemd, I do not have personal experience with those, but I'm sure that
> > you will get few hints.
> > 
> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and how
> they are treated, I do not trust any part of it.
> Neither resolved, logind, etc...

So you do not trust udev as well?


> Too many critical bugs found in them and treated by the upstream
> developpers with only contempt for the people reporting them
> (see https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237#issuecomment-312458445)

By that logic (in)famous libc bug 4980 shoud've stopped by from using
any sane Linux distribution 10 years ago. Did it?


> This behaviour on a critical component is mere madness.

OpenBSD folks beg to differ.

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=149902196520920&w=2


> And it is NOT possible to use debian without any part of systemd.

Indeed it is. It is not possible to use Debian without udev. Everything
else is optional though.

Reco

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#183301

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2017-07-06 at 07:48, Reco wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> 
>> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
>> 
>>> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained
>>> here:
>>> 
>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
>>> 
>>> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian
>>> without systemd, I do not have personal experience with those,
>>> but I'm sure that you will get few hints.
>> 
>> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and
>> how they are treated, I do not trust any part of it. Neither
>> resolved, logind, etc...
> 
> So you do not trust udev as well?

I consider it unfortunate that udev is maintained as part of the systemd
suite, rather than being maintained independently (even if by the same
people), purely from a separation-of-distinct-things perspective.

I haven't seen any relevant problems with it to date, however; the worst
aspect of that maintenance situation is that it means upgrading udev
shows the systemd changelog (which rarely has any relevant changes
listed), rather than only a changelog for udev itself.

>> And it is NOT possible to use debian without any part of systemd.
> 
> Indeed it is. It is not possible to use Debian without udev.
> Everything else is optional though.

You do at least also need libsystemd0 - or at any rate, trying to remove
that on my (otherwise systemd-free) system results in removing 735
packages, and leaving at least a few hundred others in "automatically
installed, would be removed by autoremove" state.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#183303

On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 08:45:30AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2017-07-06 at 07:48, Reco wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> > 
> >> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
> >> 
> >>> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained
> >>> here:
> >>> 
> >>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
> >>> 
> >>> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian
> >>> without systemd, I do not have personal experience with those,
> >>> but I'm sure that you will get few hints.
> >> 
> >> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and
> >> how they are treated, I do not trust any part of it. Neither
> >> resolved, logind, etc...
> > 
> > So you do not trust udev as well?
> 
> I consider it unfortunate that udev is maintained as part of the systemd
> suite, rather than being maintained independently (even if by the same
> people), purely from a separation-of-distinct-things perspective.
> 
> I haven't seen any relevant problems with it to date, however; the worst
> aspect of that maintenance situation is that it means upgrading udev
> shows the systemd changelog (which rarely has any relevant changes
> listed), rather than only a changelog for udev itself.

Um. So called Predictable Network Interface Names, for starters.
Does *very funny* things to Debian (anything that have net.ifnames=1
really) running in ESXi.

Somewhat old, but truly golden story about udev and firmware loading -
https://lwn.net/Articles/518942/

And, of course #762018 deserves a honorable mention.


> >> And it is NOT possible to use debian without any part of systemd.
> > 
> > Indeed it is. It is not possible to use Debian without udev.
> > Everything else is optional though.
> 
> You do at least also need libsystemd0 - or at any rate, trying to remove
> that on my (otherwise systemd-free) system results in removing 735
> packages, and leaving at least a few hundred others in "automatically
> installed, would be removed by autoremove" state.

True. But does libsystemd0 count? It's a library, not an executable.

Reco

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#183306

Le 07/06/17 à 15:27, Reco a écrit :
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 08:45:30AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
>> On 2017-07-06 at 07:48, Reco wrote:
>>
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
>>>
>>>> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained
>>>>> here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
>>>>>
>>>>> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian
>>>>> without systemd, I do not have personal experience with those,
>>>>> but I'm sure that you will get few hints.
>>>>
>>>> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and
>>>> how they are treated, I do not trust any part of it. Neither
>>>> resolved, logind, etc...
>>>
>>> So you do not trust udev as well?
>>
>> I consider it unfortunate that udev is maintained as part of the systemd
>> suite, rather than being maintained independently (even if by the same
>> people), purely from a separation-of-distinct-things perspective.
>>
>> I haven't seen any relevant problems with it to date, however; the worst
>> aspect of that maintenance situation is that it means upgrading udev
>> shows the systemd changelog (which rarely has any relevant changes
>> listed), rather than only a changelog for udev itself.
> 
> Um. So called Predictable Network Interface Names, for starters.
> Does *very funny* things to Debian (anything that have net.ifnames=1
> really) running in ESXi.
> 
> Somewhat old, but truly golden story about udev and firmware loading -
> https://lwn.net/Articles/518942/
> 
> And, of course #762018 deserves a honorable mention.
> 
> 
>>>> And it is NOT possible to use debian without any part of systemd.
>>>
>>> Indeed it is. It is not possible to use Debian without udev.
>>> Everything else is optional though.
>>
>> You do at least also need libsystemd0 - or at any rate, trying to remove
>> that on my (otherwise systemd-free) system results in removing 735
>> packages, and leaving at least a few hundred others in "automatically
>> installed, would be removed by autoremove" state.
> 
> True. But does libsystemd0 count? It's a library, not an executable.
> 
> Reco
> 
There are also packages which add a dependency on systemd whereas the
same software works perfectly on FreeBSD, thus without anything
ressembling it (eg hplip).
This leads to upgrade from a jessie without systemd will install it.

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#183314

	Hi.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:49:41 +0200
Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> wrote:

> > True. But does libsystemd0 count? It's a library, not an executable.
> > 
> There are also packages which add a dependency on systemd whereas the
> same software works perfectly on FreeBSD, thus without anything
> ressembling it (eg hplip).
> This leads to upgrade from a jessie without systemd will install it.

I did obligatory 'apt-get upgrade; apt-get dist-upgrade' at least 5
times so far (jessie→stretch). Different architectures, different
purposes. There was no systemd on those before the upgrade, and there
is no systemd after it.

But, I don't use GNOME and do not force it on users. Using GNOME may be
considered a cruel and unusual punishment in some countries, I don't
need that.

And I prefer to keep hplip on a printserver, 'cause I see no reason to
install the thing on a desktops multiple times. Same thing with cups.

If apt insists on installing unwanted packages into your system - I can
only suggest you to consider learning the way apt works.


Besides, there's no point in complaining about it here.
To actually change something they suggest users to invoke an excellent
reportbug utility and transfer their wishes directly to bugs.debian.org.

Reco

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#183322

On 07/06/2017 10:00 AM, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:49:41 +0200
> Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> wrote:
> 
>>> True. But does libsystemd0 count? It's a library, not an executable.
>>>
>> There are also packages which add a dependency on systemd whereas the
>> same software works perfectly on FreeBSD, thus without anything
>> ressembling it (eg hplip).
>> This leads to upgrade from a jessie without systemd will install it.

I am not a particular fan of systemd, but have learned to live with it,
on the basis that deviations from the default install are likely to lead
to more work, possibly exponentially, down the line.

That said, the hplip in Devuan 2.0 seems to be identical to that in
Stretch, and neither, therefore would depend on (or recommend) systemd.

The output of "dpkg --status hplip" is identical on the two systems.


> 
> I did obligatory 'apt-get upgrade; apt-get dist-upgrade' at least 5
> times so far (jessie→stretch). Different architectures, different
> purposes. There was no systemd on those before the upgrade, and there
> is no systemd after it.
> 
> But, I don't use GNOME and do not force it on users. Using GNOME may be
> considered a cruel and unusual punishment in some countries, I don't
> need that.
> 
> And I prefer to keep hplip on a printserver, 'cause I see no reason to
> install the thing on a desktops multiple times. Same thing with cups.
> 
> If apt insists on installing unwanted packages into your system - I can
> only suggest you to consider learning the way apt works.
> 
> 
> Besides, there's no point in complaining about it here.
> To actually change something they suggest users to invoke an excellent
> reportbug utility and transfer their wishes directly to bugs.debian.org.
> 
> Reco
> 

Tom Dial

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#183351

On Thu 06 Jul 2017 at 21:07:44 -0600, Tom Dial wrote:

> I am not a particular fan of systemd, but have learned to live with it,
> on the basis that deviations from the default install are likely to lead
> to more work, possibly exponentially, down the line.
> 
> That said, the hplip in Devuan 2.0 seems to be identical to that in
> Stretch, and neither, therefore would depend on (or recommend) systemd.
> 
> The output of "dpkg --status hplip" is identical on the two systems.

Technical point. One word: consolekit. Clearer now?

-- 
Brian.

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#183348

On Thu 06 Jul 2017 at 15:49:41 +0200, Erwan David wrote:

> There are also packages which add a dependency on systemd whereas the
> same software works perfectly on FreeBSD, thus without anything
> ressembling it (eg hplip).

hplip does not have systemd as a Depends:,

In about 2009 hplip introduced support for policykit. Utilities such as
hp-setup could be run as an ordinary user rather than as the superuser.
Therefore, Debian's hplip depends on policykit. Sensible, you would have
to agree.

But, nearly 10 years later, policykit-1 depends on libpam-systemd, which,
in turn, depends on systemd. No real problem there; an installation of
policykit-1 by hplip does not change PID 1.

For an hplip installation not to lead to the installation of systemd the
target to aim at is libpam-systemd. Good luck with that, but don't blame
hplip; it is only providing a secure environment for users to operate in.

> This leads to upgrade from a jessie without systemd will install it.

A Jessie hplip pulls in systemd so your point is obscure. Perhaps you
could analyse in detail what FreeBSD does with hplip to clarify how it
differs.

-- 
Brian.

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