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why??why?why??

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  why??why?why?? Shahryar Afifi <shahryarafifi@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-10 03:20 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? darkestkhan <darkestkhan@gmail.com> - 2017-03-10 09:20 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-03-10 09:40 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 10:10 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-03-10 10:20 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? Henning <henning@itcfollmann.com> - 2017-03-10 15:50 +0100
      Re: why??why?why?? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-10 17:00 +0100
      Re: why??why?why?? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-03-10 21:50 +0100
        Re: why??why?why?? Jimmy Johnson <jimmyjhn@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 02:00 +0100
          Re: why??why?why?? GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-11 03:00 +0100
            Re: why??why?why?? Jimmy Johnson <jimmyjhn@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 04:10 +0100
              Re: why??why?why?? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 14:30 +0100
                Re: why??why?why?? Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 18:40 +0100
          Re: why??why?why?? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 03:10 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-03-10 21:40 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-11 03:30 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 14:20 +0100
    Re: why??why?why?? Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 10:00 +0100
      Re: why??why?why?? Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 12:20 +0100
        Re: why??why?why?? Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 12:50 +0100
          Re: why??why?why?? darkestkhan <darkestkhan@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 14:20 +0100
          Re: why??why?why?? Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 15:00 +0100
          Re: why??why?why?? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-12 17:00 +0100
            Re: why??why?why?? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-03-12 17:20 +0100
            [OT]Re: why??why?why?? Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2017-03-12 19:20 +0100
              Re: [OT]Re: why??why?why?? GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-12 23:00 +0100
                Re: [OT]Re: why??why?why?? Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2017-03-13 11:00 +0100
                Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??) GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-13 16:00 +0100
                  Re: Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??) Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-03-13 20:30 +0100
                    Re: Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-13 22:00 +0100
                      Re: radeon black screen (was: Apology to siduction...) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-13 23:00 +0100
                        Re: radeon black screen (was: Apology to siduction...) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 00:00 +0100
                          Re: radeon black screen Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-14 00:40 +0100
                            Re: radeon black screen Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 02:00 +0100
                              Re: radeon black screen Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-14 03:00 +0100
                            Re: radeon black screen David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 05:50 +0100
                              Re: radeon black screen Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-14 06:20 +0100
                              Re: radeon black screen Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-14 06:40 +0100
      Re: why??why?why?? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 05:20 +0100
      Re: why??why?why?? cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-03-31 13:00 +0200
        Re: why??why?why?? Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 17:00 +0200

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#178719

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> wrote:
>         Hi.
>
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 07:15:02 -0400
> Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2017 04:57 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 02:09:22AM +0000, Shahryar Afifi wrote:
>> >>
>> >> why o why...
>> >> why debian keeps getting fancier like other operating system.
>> >> debian is a linux machine, not some toy like apple.
>> >> we dont need gnome 3 taking too much ram, in fact we dont need any graphical runtime.
>> >> they dont wanna support  the poor wheezy for what ??? and why ??
>> >> its the most stable OS ever.. thats why they called it old stable.
>> >> why cant i add libpam-fprindt 1:0.5 to my wheezy so i can run my fingerprint ??
>> >> why nautilus in jessie is so fancy ??
>> >> when i work on my wheezy, everything is just right even when they say "its init and PID runs one by one" so what.. its a computer and should look like and act like a computer.
>> >> i dont wanna give up my reliability to some fancy mancy..
>> >> :(
>> >>
>> >> SH.A
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is yet another of those threads where the OP never returns after
>> > dropping their troll bomb... the only why oh why here is why oh why do
>> > we collectively never learn not to feed the trolls...
>> +1
>> Since when do we reply to stupid subject lines?? It just encourages
>> those who use the word "wanna" to express a malformed topic. Ric
>
> Please have a little decency, Ric. English is not everyone's mother
> tongue and small Friday trolling is a venerable custom on this list.
>
> OP is clearly upset with the direction Debian's development took,
> although I agree that such form of disappointment could use some
> improvement (on spelling for instance).
>
> Reco
>

All is nice and well, but... it is not up to debian to decide - this is all
about in what direction gnome and kde are being developed (among
others). If debian wanted to change that then we are talking about doing
development of not only debian but also of kde, gnome, systemd,
 and other various software included in given debian release. We are
talking about serious manpawer here - not something 1000 or so devs
can do in their spare time for free.


-- 

darkestkhan
------------------------------------------
Feel free to CC me.
jid: darkestkhan@gmail.com
May The Source be with You.

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#178721

On 03/12/2017 07:49 AM, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
>
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 07:15:02 -0400
> Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2017 04:57 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 02:09:22AM +0000, Shahryar Afifi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> why o why...
>>>> why debian keeps getting fancier like other operating system.
>>>> debian is a linux machine, not some toy like apple.
>>>> we dont need gnome 3 taking too much ram, in fact we dont need any graphical runtime.
>>>> they dont wanna support  the poor wheezy for what ??? and why ??
>>>> its the most stable OS ever.. thats why they called it old stable.
>>>> why cant i add libpam-fprindt 1:0.5 to my wheezy so i can run my fingerprint ??
>>>> why nautilus in jessie is so fancy ??
>>>> when i work on my wheezy, everything is just right even when they say "its init and PID runs one by one" so what.. its a computer and should look like and act like a computer.
>>>> i dont wanna give up my reliability to some fancy mancy..
>>>> :(
>>>>
>>>> SH.A
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is yet another of those threads where the OP never returns after
>>> dropping their troll bomb... the only why oh why here is why oh why do
>>> we collectively never learn not to feed the trolls...
>> +1
>> Since when do we reply to stupid subject lines?? It just encourages
>> those who use the word "wanna" to express a malformed topic. Ric
>
> Please have a little decency, Ric. English is not everyone's mother
> tongue and small Friday trolling is a venerable custom on this list.

Since when?? It certainly isn't "venerable". Ric
-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#178723

On Sunday 12 March 2017 11:49:29 Reco wrote:
> > Since when do we reply to stupid subject lines?? It just encourages
> > those who use the word "wanna" to express a malformed topic. Ric
>
> Please have a little decency, Ric. English is not everyone's mother
> tongue

It is only those whose mother tongue is English surely, who would even 
consider spelling "want to" as "wanna".  Those whose mother tongue is NOT 
English might well not know what "wanna" meant.  They have after all, mostly, 
learnt English at school.  Would that those whose mother tongue is English 
had done so!

Lisi

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#178724

Lisi writes:
> It is only those whose mother tongue is English surely, who would even
> consider spelling "want to" as "wanna".  Those whose mother tongue is
> NOT English might well not know what "wanna" meant.  They have after
> all, mostly, learnt English at school.  Would that those whose mother
> tongue is English had done so!

Indeed.  I make it a point to ignore those who write "wanna".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#178728 — [OT]Re: why??why?why??

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 15:58:58 +0000
Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

(...)
> It is only those whose mother tongue is English surely, who would even 
> consider spelling "want to" as "wanna".  Those whose mother tongue is
> NOT English might well not know what "wanna" meant.

That is definitely not true here in Germany ;-)
Every teenage garage band will most certainly make heavy use of
"wanna" (not to tell about other, far worse "slang" expressions they
caught up somewhere). Adult garage musicians around here are most likely
no different, btw ;-)) Non-musicians very probably use it, too.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

The face of war has never changed.  Surely it is more logical to heal
than to kill.
		-- Surak of Vulcan, "The Savage Curtain", stardate 5906.5

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#178734 — Re: [OT]Re: why??why?why??

The past few Fridays it has become my joy for the weekend to install in
small drives some debian based distro ...  I tried Q4os and siduction
... the experience has been a disastrous weekend over another ...  I'm
done playing with this stuff.  I'm sticking with debian and all I'll
play with from now on is different phases of it stable/testing/unstable

***  All the shortcuts some of those distros make around debian
procedures and all the funky stuff the employ seem much more trouble
than it is worth ***

Although I have to admit that Kali in a virtual machine on a 32bit
debian seemed pretty good ... but all of its tools are pretty useless
for me.  I just wanted to see what it is like...

I still want to figure out how to make backup images with xorriso as it
seems it may be very handy when risking to break the system.

my 2c
kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178748 — Re: [OT]Re: why??why?why??

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:51:00 +0000
GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> wrote:

> The past few Fridays it has become my joy for the weekend to install in
> small drives some debian based distro ...  I tried Q4os and siduction
> ... the experience has been a disastrous weekend over another ...  I'm
> done playing with this stuff.  I'm sticking with debian and all I'll
> play with from now on is different phases of it stable/testing/unstable
> 
> ***  All the shortcuts some of those distros make around debian
> procedures and all the funky stuff the employ seem much more trouble
> than it is worth ***

A while ago I installed Sparky Linux on a cheap laptop, because it was
the only debian based distro I could find that would boot into that
stupid 32-bit uefi thing. Although I cannot say that I really need them,
the few Sparky-specific "extras" seem sound to me and the default
configuration also seems sane, as far as I have tried everything seems
to work well.

> 
> Although I have to admit that Kali in a virtual machine on a 32bit
> debian seemed pretty good ... but all of its tools are pretty useless
> for me.  I just wanted to see what it is like...
> 
> I still want to figure out how to make backup images with xorriso as it
> seems it may be very handy when risking to break the system.

I have back-up'd my system with doing cp -a once from a live system to
copy my installation to an usb drive, then wrote a small script that
checks for the presence of that usb drive each time I shut down the
machine and, if it is connected, uses rsync to keep the backup up to
date. Probably this is not the "professional" way to handle backups, but
is has proven very handy a few times when I had thoroughly destroyed my
system. Just start a live system again, cp -a back the whole affair and
reboot. Always worked fine for me.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

You can't evaluate a man by logic alone.
		-- McCoy, "I, Mudd", stardate 4513.3

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#178762 — Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??)

Out of my frustration and lack of understanding, or the belief that all
systems should run as trouble-free as clean-debian, and possibly due to
just getting tired of fighting something too long, I bad-mouthed
siduction in public.

My source of frustration came from fighting an installation in a tired
old system (64bit) and a mediocre not so smart monitor.  Most installers
and systems I've seen use 800x600 as their boot/grub screen.
Siduction probably doesn't have access to an old monitor.  What this
meant was the screen would blank out and have an internal error showing
not-compatible meanwhile the grub time would expire and boot up
eventually to a graphical login screen.  So I thought some weird boot
system prevents me from seeing what's going on or giving me options, so
in effect I lost access to all other installed systems.

With a clean head and a different pc I went in as root and looked on the
usb what the grub config looked like and simply replaced the high
resolution to an 800x600 and delayed the default boot sequence just in case.

Siduction ... the best grub-configuration I have seen yet, once you can
get to it and edit it :)

Sorry Siduction!
kAt

PS  But you (siduction) should lower your graphics expectations down a
notch or two.  There are some 1024 monitors still around.

PS2  Maybe a way to scale back and confirm visibility of the grub menu
before it boots the default may help, if you MUST high a high definition
grub screen.

PS3  Being more confident I can back up and restore my experimentation
with siduction really did help as well ;)  dd/xorriso and all!

PS4  More than a week ago when I subscribed to their forum "I asked" on
why would their installer not run on very similar systems.  Never
thought the monitor was IT.  I got no response from them ... but I
assume small teams of developers can't address everyone's complaints.



GiaThnYgeia:
> The past few Fridays it has become my joy for the weekend to install in
> small drives some debian based distro ...  I tried Q4os and siduction
> ... the experience has been a disastrous weekend over another ...  I'm
> done playing with this stuff.  I'm sticking with debian and all I'll
> play with from now on is different phases of it stable/testing/unstable
> 
> ***  All the shortcuts some of those distros make around debian
> procedures and all the funky stuff the employ seem much more trouble
> than it is worth ***
> 
> Although I have to admit that Kali in a virtual machine on a 32bit
> debian seemed pretty good ... but all of its tools are pretty useless
> for me.  I just wanted to see what it is like...
> 
> I still want to figure out how to make backup images with xorriso as it
> seems it may be very handy when risking to break the system.
> 
> my 2c
> kAt
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178775 — Re: Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??)

Hi there


On 13/03/17 15:54, GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> Out of my frustration and lack of understanding, or the belief that all
> systems should run as trouble-free as clean-debian, and possibly due to
> just getting tired of fighting something too long, I bad-mouthed
> siduction in public.
>
> My source of frustration came from fighting an installation in a tired
> old system (64bit) and a mediocre not so smart monitor.  Most installers
> and systems I've seen use 800x600 as their boot/grub screen.
> Siduction probably doesn't have access to an old monitor.  What this
> meant was the screen would blank out and have an internal error showing
> not-compatible meanwhile the grub time would expire and boot up
> eventually to a graphical login screen.  So I thought some weird boot
> system prevents me from seeing what's going on or giving me options, so
> in effect I lost access to all other installed systems.
>
> With a clean head and a different pc I went in as root and looked on the
> usb what the grub config looked like and simply replaced the high
> resolution to an 800x600 and delayed the default boot sequence just in case.
>
> Siduction ... the best grub-configuration I have seen yet, once you can
> get to it and edit it :)
>
> Sorry Siduction!
> kAt
>
> PS  But you (siduction) should lower your graphics expectations down a
> notch or two.  There are some 1024 monitors still around.

My server has a 12 Inch 640x480 monitor (IBM 8513).
Installers shouldn't make assumptions about resolutions.

> PS2  Maybe a way to scale back and confirm visibility of the grub menu
> before it boots the default may help, if you MUST high a high definition
> grub screen.
>
> PS3  Being more confident I can back up and restore my experimentation
> with siduction really did help as well ;)  dd/xorriso and all!
>
> PS4  More than a week ago when I subscribed to their forum "I asked" on
> why would their installer not run on very similar systems.  Never
> thought the monitor was IT.  I got no response from them ... but I
> assume small teams of developers can't address everyone's complaints.


Regards,
Rob

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#178786 — Re: Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??)

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:23 PM, Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> 
>> On 13/03/17 15:54, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> 
>> Out of my frustration and lack of understanding, or the belief that all
>> systems should run as trouble-free as clean-debian, and possibly due to
>> just getting tired of fighting something too long, I bad-mouthed
>> siduction in public.
>> 
>> My source of frustration came from fighting an installation in a tired
>> old system (64bit) and a mediocre not so smart monitor.  Most installers
>> and systems I've seen use 800x600 as their boot/grub screen.
>> Siduction probably doesn't have access to an old monitor.  What this
>> meant was the screen would blank out and have an internal error showing
>> not-compatible meanwhile the grub time would expire and boot up
>> eventually to a graphical login screen.  So I thought some weird boot
>> system prevents me from seeing what's going on or giving me options, so
>> in effect I lost access to all other installed systems.
>> 
>> With a clean head and a different pc I went in as root and looked on the
>> usb what the grub config looked like and simply replaced the high
>> resolution to an 800x600 and delayed the default boot sequence just in case.
>> 
>> Siduction ... the best grub-configuration I have seen yet, once you can
>> get to it and edit it :)
>> 
>> Sorry Siduction!
>> kAt
>> 
>> PS  But you (siduction) should lower your graphics expectations down a
>> notch or two.  There are some 1024 monitors still around.
> 
> My server has a 12 Inch 640x480 monitor (IBM 8513).
> Installers shouldn't make assumptions about resolutions.
> 
>> PS2  Maybe a way to scale back and confirm visibility of the grub menu
>> before it boots the default may help, if you MUST high a high definition
>> grub screen.
>> 
>> PS3  Being more confident I can back up and restore my experimentation
>> with siduction really did help as well ;)  dd/xorriso and all!
>> 
>> PS4  More than a week ago when I subscribed to their forum "I asked" on
>> why would their installer not run on very similar systems.  Never
>> thought the monitor was IT.  I got no response from them ... but I
>> assume small teams of developers can't address everyone's complaints.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Rob

Meanwhile, my MSI Z87-43G motherboard boot screen doesn't display unless I use the built-in graphics card. When I use my Radeon R9 270X it just goes blank, but still boots through to the default first grub menu item. 4K monitor. Of course, the obvious issues with my graphics card means I don't use it. The newer driver for Radeon cards does not support my card, and the old Catalyst driver is incompatible with Jessie.

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#178793 — Re: radeon black screen (was: Apology to siduction...)

Catherine Gramze composed on 2017-03-13 15:35 (UTC-0400):

> Meanwhile, my MSI Z87-43G motherboard boot screen doesn't display unless I
> use the built-in graphics card. When I use my Radeon R9 270X it just goes
> blank, but still boots through to the default first grub menu item. 4K

Goes blank when exactly? Do kernel and initrd load first? Do you see any boot 
messages before a shell prompt or login greeter are supposed to appear? If 
Plymouth is installed, have you tried removing it?

> monitor. Of course, the obvious issues with my graphics card means I don't
> use it. The newer driver for Radeon cards does not support my card, and the
> old Catalyst driver is incompatible with Jessie.

Did you try the driver that supports both gfxchips? Devs are trying to get away 
from chip-specific drivers:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-Debian-Abandon-Intel-DDX

In Jessie the modesetting driver is still a separate package, but beginning in 
server 1.17 it's built into the server. With the modesetting X driver installed 
and ATI and Intel drivers purged, modesetting ought to be used automatically for 
both chips, unless that R9 270X, which according to Wikipedia doesn't seem to 
exist, is too new to be supported without enabling any optional repo, or at all.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#178795 — Re: radeon black screen (was: Apology to siduction...)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Meanwhile, my MSI Z87-43G motherboard boot screen doesn't display unless I
>
>> use the built-in graphics card. When I use my Radeon R9 270X it just goes
>> blank, but still boots through to the default first grub menu item. 4K
>>
>
> Goes blank when exactly? Do kernel and initrd load first? Do you see any
> boot messages before a shell prompt or login greeter are supposed to
> appear? If Plymouth is installed, have you tried removing it?
>
> monitor. Of course, the obvious issues with my graphics card means I don't
>> use it. The newer driver for Radeon cards does not support my card, and
>> the
>> old Catalyst driver is incompatible with Jessie.
>>
>
> Did you try the driver that supports both gfxchips? Devs are trying to get
> away from chip-specific drivers:
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-De
> bian-Abandon-Intel-DDX
>
> In Jessie the modesetting driver is still a separate package, but
> beginning in server 1.17 it's built into the server. With the modesetting X
> driver installed and ATI and Intel drivers purged, modesetting ought to be
> used automatically for both chips, unless that R9 270X, which according to
> Wikipedia doesn't seem to exist, is too new to be supported without
> enabling any optional repo, or at all.
>
> ​I have to go into way back memory mode, the Wheezy days, to remember when
it goes blank using the Catalyst driver. IIRC it simply never displays
anything at all until I get the graphical login screen at native 4K
resolution. I suspect my Dell doesn't like the low resolution.
http://www1.la.dell.com/vc/en/corp/peripherals/dell-p2415q-monitor/pd.aspx?refid=dell-p2415q-monitor&s=corp


My videocard does exist. It' not a new card, but a few years old.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2430258,00.asp

What do you mean by the driver that supports gfxchips? The ATI driver for
my card, fglrx, is not supported in Jessie. The Debian wiki says so very
clearly. And the Debian radeon driver seems to simply not work. Blank
screen that never displays anything, even after waiting 15 or 20 minutes.
There is a newer ATI proprietary driver, but my card is not supported by
it, as of last time I checked. Only newer cards than mine are supported.

I thank you for your advice on this - it is an annoying thing.

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#178801 — Re: radeon black screen

Catherine Gramze composed on 2017-03-13 18:49 (UTC-0400):

...
>> appear? If Plymouth is installed, have you tried removing it?

Is Plymouth installed?

>> monitor. Of course, the obvious issues with my graphics card means I don't
>> Did you try the driver that supports both gfxchips? Devs are trying to get
>> away from chip-specific drivers:
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-De
>> bian-Abandon-Intel-DDX

>> In Jessie the modesetting driver is still a separate package, but
>> beginning in server 1.17 it's built into the server. With the modesetting X
>> driver installed and ATI and Intel drivers purged, modesetting ought to be
>> used automatically for both chips, unless that R9 270X, which according to
>> Wikipedia doesn't seem to exist, is too new to be supported without
>> enabling any optional repo, or at all.

> ​I have to go into way back memory mode, the Wheezy days, to remember when
> it goes blank using the Catalyst driver. IIRC it simply never displays
> anything at all until I get the graphical login screen at native 4K
> resolution. I suspect my Dell doesn't like the low resolution.
> http://www1.la.dell.com/vc/en/corp/peripherals/dell-p2415q-monitor/pd.aspx?refid=dell-p2415q-monitor&s=corp

> My videocard does exist. It' not a new card, but a few years old.
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2430258,00.asp

According to that URI it is a refresh of Radeon HD 7870 that apparently nobody 
ever updated Wikipedia to include. The Radeon HD 7870 is a Pitcairn XT (Southern 
Islands), originally released 5 years ago.

> What do you mean by the driver that supports gfxchips? The ATI driver for

What I wrote was "driver that supports 'both' gfxchips". I meant these drivers:

http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/debian/pool/main/x/xserver-xorg-video-modesetting/

Simplest way to use is purge all traces of Intel, proprietary and AMD/ATI 
drivers, install xserver-xorg-video-modesetting, then restart. Ideally it would 
be used automatically by both the Pitcairn and the gfx built into whatever Intel 
CPU is onboard your MSI Z87-43G, assuming both are actually usable.....

> my card, fglrx, is not supported in Jessie. The Debian wiki says so very
> clearly. And the Debian radeon driver seems to simply not work. Blank
> screen that never displays anything, even after waiting 15 or 20 minutes.
> There is a newer ATI proprietary driver, but my card is not supported by
> it, as of last time I checked. Only newer cards than mine are supported.

> I thank you for your advice on this - it is an annoying thing
I've not tried to find and read the manual for your motherboard, but it's 
typical that installation of a gfxcard in a PCIe slot defeats the ability to use 
the onboard gfx. In some cases, it is supported, but requires special BIOS 
configuration. It may be lack of support for your several year old Pitcairn is 
actually blocked by a motherboard BIOS/Firmware/Setup setting that enables use 
of Intel onboard gfx, not by anything Jessie is doing.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#178804 — Re: radeon black screen

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Catherine Gramze composed on 2017-03-13 18:49 (UTC-0400):
>
> Is Plymouth installed?


​No, it is not. I checked.​

According to that URI it is a refresh of Radeon HD 7870 that apparently
> nobody ever updated Wikipedia to include. The Radeon HD 7870 is a Pitcairn
> XT (Southern Islands), originally released 5 years ago.
>
>
>> What I wrote was "driver that supports 'both' gfxchips". I meant these
> drivers:
>
> http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/debian/pool/main/x/xserver-xorg
> -video-modesetting/
>
> Simplest way to use is purge all traces of Intel, proprietary and AMD/ATI
> drivers, install xserver-xorg-video-modesetting, then restart. Ideally it
> would be used automatically by both the Pitcairn and the gfx built into
> whatever Intel CPU is onboard your MSI Z87-43G, assuming both are actually
> usable.....
>
>>

> I've not tried to find and read the manual for your motherboard, but it's
>> typical that installation of a gfxcard in a PCIe slot defeats the ability
>> to use the onboard gfx. In some cases, it is supported, but requires
>> special BIOS configuration. It may be lack of support for your several year
>> old Pitcairn is actually blocked by a motherboard BIOS/Firmware/Setup
>> setting that enables use of Intel onboard gfx, not by anything Jessie is
>> doing.
>>
>
> ​Both are not usable simultaneously. My BIOS requires me to disable the
on-board graphics to use the Radeon card. ​Getting into BIOS is impossible
with the Radeon in use. Please explain just what benefit I might derive
from installing the server video driver you mention rather than the Intel
desktop one I am using now. Will it provide me with a 4K display? Please
provide a reference that states my card is supported by it, as well.

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#178806 — Re: radeon black screen

Catherine Gramze composed on 2017-03-13 20:56 (UTC-0400):

> ​Both are not usable simultaneously. My BIOS requires me to disable the
> on-board graphics to use the Radeon card. ​Getting into BIOS is impossible
> with the Radeon in use.
Probably not impossible, but difficult I cannot doubt. It ought to go into setup 
automatically regardless of video connection if you do a BIOS reset via jumper 
or battery removal. If the difficulty is lack of keyboard response at boot, you 
can probably work around it by plugging in a PS/2 keyboard.

> Please explain just what benefit I might derive
> from installing the server video driver you mention rather than the Intel
> desktop one I am using now.
What I was doing was offering a possible way to utilize your Radeon, via a 
driver which happens also to support most non-ancient Intel gfxchips.

> Will it provide me with a 4K display?
I have no idea whether your 4K display is compatible with anything in Jessie. 
Pure Jessie might be too old.

You haven't provided model or known modes supported of either your display or 
your CPU, or your cable connection type you're using or have tried to use, or 
what mode you actually want to use. These limit what help you might be able to 
get from any mailing list.

> Please provide a reference that states my card is supported by it, as well.

Full specifications for the R9 270X seem to be a secret. I searched the web 
without finding out what specific modes it is supposed to support.

e.g. https://us.msi.com/Graphics-card/R9-270X-GAMING-2G.html#hero-specification 
suggests it ought not be the limitation, but lists no modes at all.

http://xfxforce.com/en-us/products/amd-radeon-r9-200-series/amd-radeon-r9-270x-double-dissipation-edition-r9-270x-cdfc
says maximum resolution via Dual-link DVI is 2560x1600. That's less than 4K, so 
you can't use that cable type to get 4K. With the right DisplayPort or HDMI 
cable, you should be able to get 4K, but cables don't always live up to claimed 
specifications.

I don't have your hardware, so can't guarantee anything.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#178814 — Re: radeon black screen

On Mon 13 Mar 2017 at 19:30:32 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:

> Simplest way to use is purge all traces of Intel, proprietary and
> AMD/ATI drivers, install xserver-xorg-video-modesetting, then
> restart.

When you say get rid of drivers, is that just things like
xserver-xorg-video-foo, or do you also mean things like
kernel modules?

This laptop uses AFAICT the xserver-xorg-video-radeon
package (xserver-xorg-video-all is installed) with lines like:
(II) LoadModule: "radeon"

But long before this, the kernel loads a module called radeon.
I think the latter sometimes gives me problems. For example,
during the previous kernel, exiting X would often lead to the
machine apparently sleeping. The only way of awakening it was
pressing the power button momentarily, whereupon it would wake
up only to shutdown. Well, at least that avoided fscking.

Another oddity is that dmesg always says (both then and now):
[drm] Loading R300 Microcode
radeon 0000:01:00.0: firmware: failed to load radeon/R300_cp.bin (-2)
radeon 0000:01:00.0: Direct firmware load failed with error -2
radeon 0000:01:00.0: Falling back to user helper
[drm:r100_cp_init] *ERROR* Failed to load firmware!
radeon 0000:01:00.0: failed initializing CP (-12).
radeon 0000:01:00.0: Disabling GPU acceleration

However, if I feed it radeon/R300_cp.bin (by installing
firmware-linux-nonfree), the display goes blank soon afterwards.

lspci -vv gives:

01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV350/M10 [Mobility Radeon 9600 PRO Turbo] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
        Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device 005d
        Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR+ FastB2B+ DisINTx-
        Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
        Latency: 66 (2000ns min), Cache Line Size: 32 bytes
        Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 11
        Region 0: Memory at d8000000 (32-bit, prefetchable) [size=128M]
        Region 1: I/O ports at 3000 [size=256]
        Region 2: Memory at d0100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]
        [virtual] Expansion ROM at d0120000 [disabled] [size=128K]
        Capabilities: [58] AGP version 2.0
                Status: RQ=80 Iso- ArqSz=0 Cal=0 SBA+ ITACoh- GART64- HTrans- 64bit- FW+ AGP3- Rate=x1,x2,x4
                Command: RQ=32 ArqSz=0 Cal=0 SBA+ AGP+ GART64- 64bit- FW- Rate=x4
        Capabilities: [50] Power Management version 2
                Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
                Status: D0 NoSoftRst- PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
        Kernel driver in use: radeon

Cheers,
David.

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#178815 — Re: radeon black screen

David Wright composed on 2017-03-13 23:43 (UTC-0500):

> When you say get rid of drivers, is that just things like
> xserver-xorg-video-foo, or do you also mean things like
> kernel modules?

1-In the context of only FOSS in use, I had only Xorg in mind.

2-In the context of proprietary drivers having been installed: everything, 
completely clean house. I never pay any attention to or use proprietary drivers, 
so can't presume what if anything they do to or with the kernel that could 
interfere with having FOSS work as expected. FOSS drivers unusually need users 
to tinker with kernel modules.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#178816 — Re: radeon black screen

David Wright composed on 2017-03-13 23:43 (UTC-0500):

> Another oddity is that dmesg always says (both then and now):
> [drm] Loading R300 Microcode
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: firmware: failed to load radeon/R300_cp.bin (-2)
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: Direct firmware load failed with error -2
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: Falling back to user helper
> [drm:r100_cp_init] *ERROR* Failed to load firmware!
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: failed initializing CP (-12).
> radeon 0000:01:00.0: Disabling GPU acceleration

> However, if I feed it radeon/R300_cp.bin (by installing
> firmware-linux-nonfree), the display goes blank soon afterwards.

Which kernel(s)?

> lspci -vv gives:

> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV350/M10 [Mobility Radeon 9600 PRO Turbo] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
>         Subsystem: Acer Incorporated [ALI] Device 005d
>         Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR+ FastB2B+ DisINTx-
>         Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
>         Latency: 66 (2000ns min), Cache Line Size: 32 bytes
>         Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 11
>         Region 0: Memory at d8000000 (32-bit, prefetchable) [size=128M]
>         Region 1: I/O ports at 3000 [size=256]
>         Region 2: Memory at d0100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]
>         [virtual] Expansion ROM at d0120000 [disabled] [size=128K]
>         Capabilities: [58] AGP version 2.0
>                 Status: RQ=80 Iso- ArqSz=0 Cal=0 SBA+ ITACoh- GART64- HTrans- 64bit- FW+ AGP3- Rate=x1,x2,x4
>                 Command: RQ=32 ArqSz=0 Cal=0 SBA+ AGP+ GART64- 64bit- FW- Rate=x4
>         Capabilities: [50] Power Management version 2
>                 Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
>                 Status: D0 NoSoftRst- PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
>         Kernel driver in use: radeon

Your comment bolsters my suspicion that Linux kernel support may have regressed 
lately for Radeon "AGP" gfxchips marketed in parallel to PCIe versions:

https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2017-03/msg00163.html

Similar wasted a bunch of my time very recently:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1004453#c30

One must wonder how much time and effort kernel devs devote to testing on 
ancient, mostly 32-bit, hardware.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#178812

On Sun 12 Mar 2017 at 17:57:19 (+0900), Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 02:09:22AM +0000, Shahryar Afifi wrote:
> > 
> > why o why...
> > why debian keeps getting fancier like other operating system.
> > debian is a linux machine, not some toy like apple.
> > we dont need gnome 3 taking too much ram, in fact we dont need any graphical runtime. 
> > they dont wanna support  the poor wheezy for what ??? and why ??
> > its the most stable OS ever.. thats why they called it old stable.
> > why cant i add libpam-fprindt 1:0.5 to my wheezy so i can run my fingerprint ??
> > why nautilus in jessie is so fancy ??
> > when i work on my wheezy, everything is just right even when they say "its init and PID runs one by one" so what.. its a computer and should look like and act like a computer.
> > i dont wanna give up my reliability to some fancy mancy..
> > :(
> >  
> > SH.A
> > 
> 
> This is yet another of those threads where the OP never returns after 
> dropping their troll bomb... the only why oh why here is why oh why do 
> we collectively never learn not to feed the trolls...

The OP is the guy still trying to get a fingerprint reader
working. Three posts so far.

Perhaps, like me, they were perfectly happy with running wheezy
but, unlike me, they have a piece of new hardware that requires
a more modern kernel or whatever.

Cheers,
David.

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#179631

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 05:57:19PM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 02:09:22AM +0000, Shahryar Afifi wrote:

[some stuff]

> 
> This is yet another of those threads where the OP never returns after 
> dropping their troll bomb... the only why oh why here is why oh why do 
> we collectively never learn not to feed the trolls...

Do you think it may possibly be that they are a first time poster and not
subscribed and that noone cc's them and they think their post is being 
ignored?

I have seen some genuine calls for help from a poster who seems like a first
time poster, and none of the replies are CC's and the OP doesn't reply
to any of them. They probably feel like their cry for help is being ignored.

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

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