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No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

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  No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-03 15:00 +0100
    Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 20:40 +0100
      Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-04 14:10 +0100
        Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 21:00 +0100
          Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-05 12:20 +0100
            Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-05 13:40 +0100
              Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-05 21:20 +0100
                Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-03-05 21:30 +0100
                  Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-05 23:10 +0100
                    Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-03-05 23:20 +0100
                      Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-03-06 01:20 +0100
                        Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-03-06 02:00 +0100
                        Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-03-27 13:30 +0200
                          Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT kAt <giathnygeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-27 17:50 +0200
                    Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-03-06 01:10 +0100
    Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-03-03 21:00 +0100

#178367 — No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

I don't see how the previous got linked to a previous thread so I am
reposting with additional clarification.

OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio input/analog
and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
apparent the sound becomes.  Each knock on the box shows corresponding
amplification of that noise.

Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
not a malfunction.

What is there MORE to post so it can be reproduced?  Blank live debian
installations adding FMIT in 3 machines Jessie + Stretch (one on UPS,
one on mains-plug, on laptop) if you allow it to see a wide spectrum of
frequencies it records noise (mostly hi-freq) and only hardware inputs
are unplugged.  Where is the noise coming from?

It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
is actual sound



-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178377

GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> I don't see how the previous got linked to a previous thread so I am
> reposting with additional clarification.
> 
> OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
> downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio input/analog
> and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
> Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
> unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
> apparent the sound becomes.  Each knock on the box shows corresponding
> amplification of that noise.
> 
> Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
> then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
> results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
> if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
> it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
> not a malfunction.
> 
> What is there MORE to post so it can be reproduced?  Blank live debian
> installations adding FMIT in 3 machines Jessie + Stretch (one on UPS,
> one on mains-plug, on laptop) if you allow it to see a wide spectrum of
> frequencies it records noise (mostly hi-freq) and only hardware inputs
> are unplugged.  Where is the noise coming from?
> 
> It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
> dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
> is actual sound

I was interested in your mainboard - perhaps it has integrated mic.

Do you have pavucontrol installed? Go to input devices and mute the mic

regards

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#178389

https://packages.debian.org/jessie/fmit
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fmit

Here are the two current versions of it and I like it because it gives a
little more control in tuning out noise and concentrate in what I want
to measure.

It is most probably electrical noise and fluctuations of voltage and/or
frequency, which may get amplified to look like an unstable wave form.

This part may be understood enough to leave it to the sound experts.

What is interesting is that a mechanical vibration may actually cause
electrical contacts on the whole system to create an instability within
that electrical noise.  One does not need to be a sound physicist to
translate this into an effective microphone.  How many pc's don't have
panels that act as drums and amplify noise and transform noise into a
mechanical vibration?

No, there is no onboard mic, there are only two audio inputs front and
back, and as I said trying this in 2 other systems with different debian
builds had similar results (some noise registering and affected by
abrupt vibration).

Yes I have pavucontrol installed, pulseaudio and utils.

PS  Suddenly, the noises in one's head that nobody else hears are
recorded by one's only true friend, the PC   :)) :)))

deloptes:
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
>> I don't see how the previous got linked to a previous thread so I am
>> reposting with additional clarification.
>>
>> OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
>> downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio input/analog
>> and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
>> Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
>> unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
>> apparent the sound becomes.  Each knock on the box shows corresponding
>> amplification of that noise.
>>
>> Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
>> then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
>> results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
>> if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
>> it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
>> not a malfunction.
>>
>> What is there MORE to post so it can be reproduced?  Blank live debian
>> installations adding FMIT in 3 machines Jessie + Stretch (one on UPS,
>> one on mains-plug, on laptop) if you allow it to see a wide spectrum of
>> frequencies it records noise (mostly hi-freq) and only hardware inputs
>> are unplugged.  Where is the noise coming from?
>>
>> It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
>> dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
>> is actual sound
> 
> I was interested in your mainboard - perhaps it has integrated mic.
> 
> Do you have pavucontrol installed? Go to input devices and mute the mic
> 
> regards
> 
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178411

GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> PS  Suddenly, the noises in one's head that nobody else hears are
> recorded by one's only true friend, the PC   :)) :)))

Paranormal activities :D

I think it could be some voltage induced by physical contact.

Think logically - if there is no mic or nothing plugged in to your inputs,
then nothing can be recorded.

regards

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#178438

On 2017-03-04, deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>
>> PS  Suddenly, the noises in one's head that nobody else hears are
>> recorded by one's only true friend, the PC   :)) :)))
>
> Paranormal activities :D
>
> I think it could be some voltage induced by physical contact.
>
> Think logically - if there is no mic or nothing plugged in to your inputs,
> then nothing can be recorded.

Georges Charpak hypothesized the possibility of restoring the voices of
ancient potters "recorded" in the microscopic grooves of earthenware
deformed by their voices as they worked. 

Interesting idea, anyway.

> regards
>
>


-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

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#178439

On 2017-03-05, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote:
> On 2017-03-04, deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
>> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>>
>>> PS  Suddenly, the noises in one's head that nobody else hears are
>>> recorded by one's only true friend, the PC   :)) :)))
>>
>> Paranormal activities :D
>>
>> I think it could be some voltage induced by physical contact.
>>
>> Think logically - if there is no mic or nothing plugged in to your inputs,
>> then nothing can be recorded.
>
> Georges Charpak hypothesized the possibility of restoring the voices of
> ancient potters "recorded" in the microscopic grooves of earthenware
> deformed by their voices as they worked. 
>
> Interesting idea, anyway.
>
>> regards
>>

In case this wasn't clear: we're imagining clay being fashioned upon a
potter's wheel, and the striations that occur in the clay as it is
molded (which might possibly produce, according to Charpak's conjecture,
a sort of analog audio recording of ambient sounds in the finished
product, e.g.--"Hey Mosche, got any more of that Egyptian beer we were
drinking the other day?" spoken in some obsolete language no one has
ever heard before).

-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

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#178453

Curt:
> 
> In case this wasn't clear: we're imagining clay being fashioned upon a
> potter's wheel, and the striations that occur in the clay as it is
> molded (which might possibly produce, according to Charpak's conjecture,
> a sort of analog audio recording of ambient sounds in the finished
> product, e.g.--"Hey Mosche, got any more of that Egyptian beer we were
> drinking the other day?" spoken in some obsolete language no one has
> ever heard before).

I don't know about clay, it sounds more probable that prehistoric voices
affected reflected light to the universe and its returning reflection
may incorporate data that when decoded may reveal those voices.  In
other words some prehistoric sounds may not be heard yet.

Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave that
can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form of
electrical current that produces sound through a speaker?  It is not
like particle acceleration science, it is stuff that many guitarists now
and most guitar repair-persons know.  The question that is relevant to
the list is why would a security minded system allow such noise to be
communicated?  Whatever that noise is, it shouldn't be there, as if it
is there it can be anywhere.

Your appeal for case dismissal is denied!

By the way, it takes about 3' to download FMIT or something similar,
lower the db cutoffs and increase the frequency range and if it is not
there we may have something to compare.  I don't readily have a laptop
with a battery strong enough to stay on without AC, I assume they have
less electrical noise.  My noise is around 21,5KHz-23KHz with an
emphasis around 22,2...  which can't be random, but abrupt vibrations on
the case register within that noise wave.  We are in the 220v/50hz
world, so it would be interesting what the noise freq. is on 110v/60Hz

... wait did you hear that?  It is the noise of your world crumbling ;)

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178456

On Sunday 05 March 2017 15:18:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> Curt:
> > In case this wasn't clear: we're imagining clay being fashioned upon
> > a potter's wheel, and the striations that occur in the clay as it is
> > molded (which might possibly produce, according to Charpak's
> > conjecture, a sort of analog audio recording of ambient sounds in
> > the finished product, e.g.--"Hey Mosche, got any more of that
> > Egyptian beer we were drinking the other day?" spoken in some
> > obsolete language no one has ever heard before).
>
> I don't know about clay, it sounds more probable that prehistoric
> voices affected reflected light to the universe and its returning
> reflection may incorporate data that when decoded may reveal those
> voices.  In other words some prehistoric sounds may not be heard yet.
>
> Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave that
> can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form of
> electrical current that produces sound through a speaker? 

Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction motor 
that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also be used as 
a motor, including the ultra cheap electret condenser microphones, ditto 
any speaker, including the peizo tweeters, is also a microphone.  Its 
part of the basic physics everything we use works by.

> It is not 
> like particle acceleration science, it is stuff that many guitarists
> now and most guitar repair-persons know.  The question that is
> relevant to the list is why would a security minded system allow such
> noise to be communicated?  Whatever that noise is, it shouldn't be
> there, as if it is there it can be anywhere.
>
> Your appeal for case dismissal is denied!
>
> By the way, it takes about 3' to download FMIT or something similar,
> lower the db cutoffs and increase the frequency range and if it is not
> there we may have something to compare.  I don't readily have a laptop
> with a battery strong enough to stay on without AC, I assume they have
> less electrical noise.  My noise is around 21,5KHz-23KHz with an
> emphasis around 22,2...  which can't be random, but abrupt vibrations
> on the case register within that noise wave.  We are in the 220v/50hz
> world, so it would be interesting what the noise freq. is on 110v/60Hz
>
> ... wait did you hear that?  It is the noise of your world crumbling
> ;)


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#178468

ΟΚ!

Gene Heskett:
> On Sunday 05 March 2017 15:18:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
>> Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave that
>> can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form of
>> electrical current that produces sound through a speaker? 
> 
> Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction motor 
> that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also be used as 
> a motor, including the ultra cheap electret condenser microphones, ditto 
> any speaker, including the peizo tweeters, is also a microphone.  Its 
> part of the basic physics everything we use works by.

So, are you saying the standard motherboard beeper/speaker (the one that
beeps when you hit too many keys at once or that bios is telling you I
am booting up ... any minute now beeeeepp) is a microphone that feeds
sound back into the system and mysteriously debian is allowing it to be
recognized as an input device.

I do not claim to have reinvented the wheel here, but how can this be
acceptable if it does hold any truth?

> Cheers, Gene Heskett

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

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#178469

Gene Heskett writes:
> Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction motor 
> that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also be used as 
> a motor...

Induction motors can function as generators.  You just need to connect
them to an appropriate AC source and drive them above synchronous speed.

GiaThnYgeia writes:
> So, are you saying the standard motherboard beeper/speaker (the one
> that beeps when you hit too many keys at once or that bios is telling
> you I am booting up ... any minute now beeeeepp) is a microphone that
> feeds sound back into the system and mysteriously debian is allowing
> it to be recognized as an input device.

No, due to the absence of all the other parts needed deliver any signals
generated by the speaker back to the computer (not to mention that it
would make a very poor microphone).
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#178476

On Sunday 05 March 2017 17:16:36 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene Heskett writes:
> > Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction
> > motor that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also
> > be used as a motor...
>
> Induction motors can function as generators.  You just need to connect
> them to an appropriate AC source and drive them above synchronous
> speed.
>
Yes, there is that exception, they need an excitation current, true, but 
in that case they make excellent brakes as they don't like spinning 
above synchronous any better than they like running below it.  And with 
enough dc current you can come pretty close to stopping them dead in 
their tracks. Certainly within one revolution.  But the armature is 
soft, and its not possible to maintain the magnetic field from its 
shorted turns armature long enough to extract any output power from it 
for more than a few milliseconds.

> GiaThnYgeia writes:
> > So, are you saying the standard motherboard beeper/speaker (the one
> > that beeps when you hit too many keys at once or that bios is
> > telling you I am booting up ... any minute now beeeeepp) is a
> > microphone that feeds sound back into the system and mysteriously
> > debian is allowing it to be recognized as an input device.
>
> No, due to the absence of all the other parts needed deliver any
> signals generated by the speaker back to the computer (not to mention
> that it would make a very poor microphone).


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#178477

I wrote:
> Induction motors can function as generators.  You just need to connect
> them to an appropriate AC source and drive them above synchronous
> speed.

Gene writes:
> Yes, there is that exception, they need an excitation current, true,
> but in that case they make excellent brakes as they don't like
> spinning above synchronous any better than they like running below it.
> And with enough dc current you can come pretty close to stopping them
> dead in their tracks. Certainly within one revolution.  But the
> armature is soft, and its not possible to maintain the magnetic field
> from its shorted turns armature long enough to extract any output
> power from it for more than a few milliseconds.

That's not what I mean.  Hook an induction motor to utility power and
drive it above synchonous speed.  It will power *to* the network.

When you put DC current through the field of an induction motor to brake
it you are also using it as a generator.  It's just that all the power
gets dissipated in the armature.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#179435

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 07:13:22PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 05 March 2017 17:16:36 John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > Gene Heskett writes:
> > > Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction
> > > motor that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also
> > > be used as a motor...
> >
> > Induction motors can function as generators.  You just need to connect
> > them to an appropriate AC source and drive them above synchronous
> > speed.
> >
> Yes, there is that exception, they need an excitation current, true, but 
> in that case they make excellent brakes as they don't like spinning 
> above synchronous any better than they like running below it.  And with 
> enough dc current you can come pretty close to stopping them dead in 
> their tracks. Certainly within one revolution.  But the armature is 
> soft, and its not possible to maintain the magnetic field from its 
> shorted turns armature long enough to extract any output power from it 
> for more than a few milliseconds.

In other words Back EMF?

I know a chap who found about that the hard way when he tried to get
something from nothing by charging a battery from a generator which he
turned by having a fan connected to it. :)

He didn't get electrocuted or anything, the fan abruptly stops turning.

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

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#179472

cbannister@slingshot.co.nz:
> On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 07:13:22PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> In other words Back EMF?
> 
> I know a chap who found about that the hard way when he tried to get
> something from nothing by charging a battery from a generator which he
> turned by having a fan connected to it. :)

What do you mean?  A generator or an alternator?  Given enough power
from mechanical source (wind) to overpower the resistance of the
generator it would produce current.  Most of them, except for brush
dynamos, will produce AC which needs to be rectified back to DC and
regulated at a current a little above that of the battery.  Whether it
is a bicycle or wind generator or your auto/moto charging circuit, isn't
it how it all works?
Now if you put a 3' fan in a truck alternator and a 100Amph battery I
suspect it would take a hurricane to get it moving.

> He didn't get electrocuted or anything, the fan abruptly stops turning.

This all started from the OP stating that FMIT (on all debian main
rep's) records sound without any audio inputs in the system.

Thread cannibals!  ;)

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#178475

On Sunday 05 March 2017 17:04:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> ΟΚ!
>
> Gene Heskett:
> > On Sunday 05 March 2017 15:18:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> >> Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave
> >> that can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form
> >> of electrical current that produces sound through a speaker?
> >
> > Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction
> > motor that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also
> > be used as a motor, including the ultra cheap electret condenser
> > microphones, ditto any speaker, including the peizo tweeters, is
> > also a microphone.  Its part of the basic physics everything we use
> > works by.
>
> So, are you saying the standard motherboard beeper/speaker (the one
> that beeps when you hit too many keys at once or that bios is telling
> you I am booting up ... any minute now beeeeepp) is a microphone that
> feeds sound back into the system and mysteriously debian is allowing
> it to be recognized as an input device.
>
> I do not claim to have reinvented the wheel here, but how can this be
> acceptable if it does hold any truth?
>
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> kAt
If debian identify's it as a microphone, take it up with debian. Udev has 
been know to goose the moose before.  File a bug if that is the actual 
case.  And yes, that "speaker" might be a piezo beeper, but with the 
right amps looking at it, it will make a halfway decent microphone. This 
is paranoid scary given some of the tricks the NSA has pulled off. But 
commercial intercoms have been using a small speaker as the talkback 
microphone for at least the 70 years that I have been chasing electrons 
for a living.  That dates back to well before the transistor was 
invented.

And yes, I am now an old fart of 82.  But I was an electronics geek well 
before the term became popular. I quit school in '48, and started fixing 
them newfangled things called tv's for a living. I finished off the last 
18 years I worked by having a nameplate on my office door that said I 
was the Chief Engineer, w/o ever going back to school unless it was as 
the teacher. Along the way I collected a 1st phone ticket from the FCC, 
and a CET from a small town college prof in Nebraska, turning in the 
test in about 45 minutes. He had been teaching students for that 
certification for several years. I was the first to walk in, hand him 
the 20 to take it, and passed it. Its normally allowed 4 hours. IMO? He 
had no business teaching it if in 5 years or so, none of his students 
had passed it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#178379

On 03/03/2017 08:53 AM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
  I plugged
> then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
> results.

Is it in the repos?? Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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