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Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage

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  Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-13 16:30 +0200
    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-06-13 16:50 +0200
      Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-13 18:40 +0200
        Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-13 19:30 +0200
          Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-13 20:00 +0200
            Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith  useage Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2017-06-13 20:20 +0200
              Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-14 16:00 +0200
                Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-06-14 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-15 13:30 +0200
                    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 16:10 +0200
                      Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-06-15 16:20 +0200
                    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 17:40 +0200
            Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-13 20:30 +0200
              Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-06-13 20:40 +0200
                Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-13 20:50 +0200
                Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-13 21:10 +0200
                Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-06-14 01:00 +0200
    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-13 18:50 +0200
      Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-13 19:30 +0200
        Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-06-13 23:20 +0200
          Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-15 20:40 +0200
            Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-06-16 17:20 +0200
              Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-16 19:50 +0200
    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2017-06-13 23:40 +0200
    Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-06-15 19:10 +0200
      Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-15 19:40 +0200
    Status Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith  useage Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-20 16:20 +0200

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#182138 — Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage

I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than a week 
ago. I have the flash drive used to do the original install of Stretch. 
I have not _intentionally_ purged any files from cache.

I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near my 
internet data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage of available 
bandwidth.

The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself. That 
eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit will be 
learning more about how Debian does things.

Suggestions?
TIA

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#182141

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On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 09:20:43AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than a week 
>ago. I have the flash drive used to do the original install of 
>Stretch. I have not _intentionally_ purged any files from cache.
>
>I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near my 
>internet data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage of 
>available bandwidth.
>
>The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself. That 
>eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit will be 
>learning more about how Debian does things.
>
>Suggestions?

I have not tried any of this, but this would be my plan of attack for
your solution.

The installer pulls its packages from another server. Normally that
server is somewhere out on the internet, but to save on transfer costs,
what if that server was inside your LAN. We also need a way to tell that
server that you already have some *.deb files and you'd like to use
those, rather than a solution which involves mirroring a full Debian
archive.

Apt-Cacher-NG appears to solve this. Firstly, you intall it on the
"installed" computer (this may incur transfer costs). Secondly, you
start apt-cacher-ng running (it appears[1] to need minimal
configuration). Thirdly, you import your already downloaded files[2]
(you'll find apt's cache at /var/cache/apt/archive/*.deb). Finally,
during installation, tell the installer to use apt-cacher-ng as a proxy
(http://IP-OR-NAME.OF.INSTALLED.COMPUTER:3142/).

What should happen is that apt-cacher-ng receives a request "GET
blah_123.deb". If it finds a copy of the file in it's cache, it serves
that from disk. Otherwise it downloads the file from upstream (this will
incur transfer costs) AND stores it to disk. The next time any computer
requests "blah_123.deb", apt-cacher-ng will be able to serve it locally,
instead of having to download it again.

As I say, I've not used apt-cacher-ng myself, but from the
documentation, it looks like it'll work.


[1] https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~bloch/acng/html/config-servquick.html#config-servquick
[2] https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~bloch/acng/html/howtos.html#imp

>TIA
>
>

-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#182146

On 06/13/2017 09:41 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 09:20:43AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than a week
>> ago. I have the flash drive used to do the original install of
>> Stretch. I have not _intentionally_ purged any files from cache.
>>
>> I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near my
>> internet data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage of
>> available bandwidth.
>>
>> The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself.
>> That eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit
>> will be learning more about how Debian does things.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>
> I have not tried any of this, but this would be my plan of attack for
> your solution.

I had no real idea of where to start or a tentative path to follow.
I've skimmed the links you gave. I suspect that site is a guide to 
things I've been looking for.

>
> The installer pulls its packages from another server. Normally that
> server is somewhere out on the internet, but to save on transfer
> costs, what if that server was inside your LAN. We also need a way
> to tell that server that you already have some *.deb files and you'd
> like to use those, rather than a solution which involves mirroring
> a full Debian archive.
>
> Apt-Cacher-NG appears to solve this. Firstly, you intall it on the
> "installed" computer (this may incur transfer costs).

It was minimal. When I used Synaptic's search function it brought up 
other packages whose descriptions looked interesting. Downloading all 
was < 5MB.

> Secondly, you
> start apt-cacher-ng running (it appears[1] to need minimal
> configuration). Thirdly, you import your already downloaded files[2]
> (you'll find apt's cache at /var/cache/apt/archive/*.deb).

My hope had been to copy those somewhere to that would be available 
locally without a need for a LAN. That may not be feasible.

> Finally,
> during installation, tell the installer to use apt-cacher-ng as
> a proxy
> (http://IP-OR-NAME.OF.INSTALLED.COMPUTER:3142/).
>
> What should happen is that apt-cacher-ng receives a request "GET
> blah_123.deb". If it finds a copy of the file in it's cache, it serves
> that from disk. Otherwise it downloads the file from upstream (this
> will incur transfer costs) AND stores it to disk. The next time any
> computer requests "blah_123.deb", apt-cacher-ng will be able to
> serve it locally, instead of having to download it again.
>
> As I say, I've not used apt-cacher-ng myself, but from the
> documentation, it looks like it'll work.
>

My mantra recently is "If retirement isn't for learning, what use is it?"

>
> [1]
> https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~bloch/acng/html/config-servquick.html#config-servquick
>
> [2] https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~bloch/acng/html/howtos.html#imp

I see much reading in my future <grin>
Thanks.

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#182150

On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 11:32:03 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 06/13/2017 09:41 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> 
> >Secondly, you
> >start apt-cacher-ng running (it appears[1] to need minimal
> >configuration). Thirdly, you import your already downloaded files[2]
> >(you'll find apt's cache at /var/cache/apt/archive/*.deb).
> 
> My hope had been to copy those somewhere to that would be available locally
> without a need for a LAN. That may not be feasible.

It *is* feasible. You have done it in the past. Use a USB stick as an
archive.

-- 
Brian.

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#182152

On 06/13/2017 12:26 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 11:32:03 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> On 06/13/2017 09:41 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
>>
>>> Secondly, you
>>> start apt-cacher-ng running (it appears[1] to need minimal
>>> configuration). Thirdly, you import your already downloaded files[2]
>>> (you'll find apt's cache at /var/cache/apt/archive/*.deb).
>>
>> My hope had been to copy those somewhere to that would be available
>> locally without a need for a LAN. That may not be feasible.
>
> It *is* feasible. You have done it in the past. Use a USB stick as an
> archive.
>

That's always been a goal. I've always used a set of DVD's never a 
netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could be done 
with netinst without any internet connectivity.

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#182154 — Re: Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage

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On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:

Hello Richard,

>netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could be done 
>with netinst without any internet connectivity.

Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
connectivity is expected to exist.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Bet you thought you had it all worked out
Problem - Sex Pistols

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#182183

On 06/13/2017 01:10 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Richard,
>
>> netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could
>> be done with netinst without any internet connectivity.
>
> Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
> connectivity is expected to exist.
>

I'm wishing I had discovered the netinst iso years ago.
*NOTE BENE* Up until about a year ago I had only dial-up. The only 
practical installation path that met my needs was purchasing complete 
DVD sets. I spent many hours trying to coerce Debian into doing a 
minimalist install. If I had succeeded, I suspect the result would have 
been close to netinst WITHOUT internet connectivity. But I've learned a lot.

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#182184

On Wed 14 Jun 2017 at 08:50:18 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 06/13/2017 01:10 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
> >Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> >
> >Hello Richard,
> >
> >>netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could
> >>be done with netinst without any internet connectivity.
> >
> >Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
> >connectivity is expected to exist.

Well, it sort of depends where you draw the line between internet
and Internet connectivity. Fifteen years ago I played about with
a private partial mirror where the source of the debs was via
commuternet, ie Zip/Jaz disks transported from my Janet-connected
office. The "internet" was a cat5 cable.

> I'm wishing I had discovered the netinst iso years ago.
> *NOTE BENE* Up until about a year ago I had only dial-up. The only
> practical installation path that met my needs was purchasing
> complete DVD sets. I spent many hours trying to coerce Debian into
> doing a minimalist install.

What parameter are you actually minimising?

> If I had succeeded, I suspect the result
> would have been close to netinst WITHOUT internet connectivity. But
> I've learned a lot.

Does it make any difference to the resulting package list whether you
install using netinst or a stack of DVDs? I had assumed that you could
deselect all the options in the "Software selection" screen whichever
way you installed, and end up with the same thing, a system with
~248 packages installed.

Cheers,
David.

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#182193

On 06/14/2017 12:56 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 14 Jun 2017 at 08:50:18 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 06/13/2017 01:10 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
>>> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Richard,
>>>
>>>> netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could
>>>> be done with netinst without any internet connectivity.
>>>
>>> Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
>>> connectivity is expected to exist.
>
> Well, it sort of depends where you draw the line between internet
> and Internet connectivity. Fifteen years ago I played about with
> a private partial mirror where the source of the debs was via
> commuternet, ie Zip/Jaz disks transported from my Janet-connected
> office. The "internet" was a cat5 cable.
>
>> I'm wishing I had discovered the netinst iso years ago.
>> *NOTE BENE* Up until about a year ago I had only dial-up. The only
>> practical installation path that met my needs was purchasing
>> complete DVD sets. I spent many hours trying to coerce Debian into
>> doing a minimalist install.
>
> What parameter are you actually minimising?

For the purpose of this thread, the downloaded byte count. Period.

However understanding netinst will influence how I approach doing a 
"minimal" install. [I use quotation marks to emphasize that "minimal" 
can mean very different things to different people.]

>
>> If I had succeeded, I suspect the result
>> would have been close to netinst WITHOUT internet connectivity. But
>> I've learned a lot.
>
> Does it make any difference to the resulting package list whether you
> install using netinst or a stack of DVDs?

I doubt it. If there were significant differences it would indicate a 
problem.

> I had assumed that you could
> deselect all the options in the "Software selection" screen whichever
> way you installed, and end up with the same thing, a system with
> ~248 packages installed.

Are all 248 packages "necessary"? [Note usage of quotation marks ;]

A mechanics question, "How to count the number of installed packages?"
I'd like to be able to reproducibly count installed packages.

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#182194

On Thu 15 Jun 2017 at 06:26:55 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 06/14/2017 12:56 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >On Wed 14 Jun 2017 at 08:50:18 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>On 06/13/2017 01:10 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >>>On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
> >>>Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Hello Richard,
> >>>
> >>>>netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could
> >>>>be done with netinst without any internet connectivity.
> >>>
> >>>Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
> >>>connectivity is expected to exist.
> >
> >Well, it sort of depends where you draw the line between internet
> >and Internet connectivity. Fifteen years ago I played about with
> >a private partial mirror where the source of the debs was via
> >commuternet, ie Zip/Jaz disks transported from my Janet-connected
> >office. The "internet" was a cat5 cable.
> >
> >>I'm wishing I had discovered the netinst iso years ago.
> >>*NOTE BENE* Up until about a year ago I had only dial-up. The only
> >>practical installation path that met my needs was purchasing
> >>complete DVD sets. I spent many hours trying to coerce Debian into
> >>doing a minimalist install.
> >
> >What parameter are you actually minimising?
> 
> For the purpose of this thread, the downloaded byte count. Period.
> 
> However understanding netinst will influence how I approach doing a
> "minimal" install. [I use quotation marks to emphasize that "minimal" can
> mean very different things to different people.]
> 
> >>If I had succeeded, I suspect the result
> >>would have been close to netinst WITHOUT internet connectivity. But
> >>I've learned a lot.
> >
> >Does it make any difference to the resulting package list whether you
> >install using netinst or a stack of DVDs?
> 
> I doubt it. If there were significant differences it would indicate a
> problem.

I'd see the netinst ISO as Debian's flagship product. A stack of DVDs
puts icing on the cake with a multitude of packages and very much
reduced bandwidth usage. (Is it wise to have a mix of nautical and
baking terms in the same paragraph, one wonders?).

> >I had assumed that you could
> >deselect all the options in the "Software selection" screen whichever
> >way you installed, and end up with the same thing, a system with
> >~248 packages installed.
> 
> Are all 248 packages "necessary"? [Note usage of quotation marks ;]

As you imply, "necessary" means different things to different people.
I install without packages of priority Standard:. That gives me 207
packages on Stretch. I regard the less utility as necessary, so get
it afterwards.

The 207 can be further reduced to 179 with some ruthless culling.
(Is nano required when vim-tiny is already there? Does rsyslog add
anything to journalctl? emacsen-common? tasksel? gnupg?).

> A mechanics question, "How to count the number of installed packages?"
> I'd like to be able to reproducibly count installed packages.

dpkg -l | grep ^ii | wc -l

-- 
Brian.

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#182198

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 03:05:36PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 15 Jun 2017 at 06:26:55 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > A mechanics question, "How to count the number of installed packages?"
> > I'd like to be able to reproducibly count installed packages.
> 
> dpkg -l | grep ^ii | wc -l

That will miss packages that are held ("hi").

dpkg -l | grep -c ^.i

would be better.

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#182203

On Thu 15 Jun 2017 at 06:26:55 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 06/14/2017 12:56 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >On Wed 14 Jun 2017 at 08:50:18 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>On 06/13/2017 01:10 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >>>On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:10 -0500
> >>>Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Hello Richard,
> >>>
> >>>>netinst iso. I had never experimented with just how much could
> >>>>be done with netinst without any internet connectivity.
> >>>
> >>>Probably not a lot.  See; https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/  Internet
> >>>connectivity is expected to exist.
> >
> >Well, it sort of depends where you draw the line between internet
> >and Internet connectivity. Fifteen years ago I played about with
> >a private partial mirror where the source of the debs was via
> >commuternet, ie Zip/Jaz disks transported from my Janet-connected
> >office. The "internet" was a cat5 cable.
> >
> >>I'm wishing I had discovered the netinst iso years ago.
> >>*NOTE BENE* Up until about a year ago I had only dial-up. The only
> >>practical installation path that met my needs was purchasing
> >>complete DVD sets. I spent many hours trying to coerce Debian into
> >>doing a minimalist install.
> >
> >What parameter are you actually minimising?
> 
> For the purpose of this thread, the downloaded byte count. Period.
> 
> However understanding netinst will influence how I approach doing a
> "minimal" install. [I use quotation marks to emphasize that
> "minimal" can mean very different things to different people.]

Then I'm guessing that DVD vs netinst is not really the factor,
but finding out how to change the package selection made by the
debian-installer itself; not something I've looked at beyond the
obvious user interface offered by expert install.

> >>If I had succeeded, I suspect the result
> >>would have been close to netinst WITHOUT internet connectivity. But
> >>I've learned a lot.
> >
> >Does it make any difference to the resulting package list whether you
> >install using netinst or a stack of DVDs?
> 
> I doubt it. If there were significant differences it would indicate
> a problem.
> 
> >I had assumed that you could
> >deselect all the options in the "Software selection" screen whichever
> >way you installed, and end up with the same thing, a system with
> >~248 packages installed.
> 
> Are all 248 packages "necessary"? [Note usage of quotation marks ;]

Probably not. Take a look at the priorities of those packages.
Here there are 14 extras, 96 optional and 53 important.
Of course, you have to study what those terms mean. os-prober and
wireless-tools are extra. Amongst the optionals are initramfs-tools,
grub, various firmware, more wireless stuff. Don't forget the kernel
image too.

> A mechanics question, "How to count the number of installed packages?"
> I'd like to be able to reproducibly count installed packages.

Various ways, but I only know how to use dpkg itself (as others here
suggest) introspectively, so I don't use that; the system you're
studying might be sitting on another partition.

To see the packages on the system, the number of entries in
/var/lib/dpkg/*.list is useful; /target/var/lib/dpkg/*.list
gives you that *during* installation, of course, as /target
is where the new system is constructed.

grep '^Status: install ok installed' /var/lib/dpkg/status | wc -l
or, for Greg,
grep '^Status: .* ok installed' /var/lib/dpkg/status | wc -l
excludes what's not yet installed if that's important.

grep -B3 -A2 '^Priority: extra' /var/lib/dpkg/status | less
gives you the names and approximate sizes of the extra packages.

I'm sure you can come up with better patterns.

And you'll probably use aptitude's why/why not feature a lot to
see how a package's gross size is influenced by the dependencies
it pulls in.

Cheers,
David.

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#182155

On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 12:51:10 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 06/13/2017 12:26 PM, Brian wrote:
> >On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 11:32:03 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >
> >>On 06/13/2017 09:41 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> >>
> >>>Secondly, you
> >>>start apt-cacher-ng running (it appears[1] to need minimal
> >>>configuration). Thirdly, you import your already downloaded files[2]
> >>>(you'll find apt's cache at /var/cache/apt/archive/*.deb).
> >>
> >>My hope had been to copy those somewhere to that would be available
> >>locally without a need for a LAN. That may not be feasible.
> >
> >It *is* feasible. You have done it in the past. Use a USB stick as an
> >archive.
> >
> 
> That's always been a goal. I've always used a set of DVD's never a netinst
> iso. I had never experimented with just how much could be done with netinst
> without any internet connectivity.

In terms of installing Debian, the netinst ISO gives you very little
more that you would get from using a set of DVDs. The difference lies in
point releases for security and perceived major changes. A network
connected machine would pick these up; you would need a new set of DVDs
to get them.

Being bandwidth constrained is a consideration, but updates to a stable
installation rarely involve more than a few 10s of MB. And it doesn't
have to be done anyway; it is your choice. I'd suggest that for your
situation (no connectivity to the internet for the Debian machine and no
malign users), you could just let point releases pass you by.

-- 
Brian.

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#182156

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:28:09PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> Being bandwidth constrained is a consideration, but updates to a stable
> installation rarely involve more than a few 10s of MB.

But only because a machine with no Internet connectivity won't have a
(graphical) web browser installed.  Those browser updates will happily
chew through hundreds of MB per month.

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#182157

On 06/13/2017 01:37 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:28:09PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>> Being bandwidth constrained is a consideration, but updates to a stable
>> installation rarely involve more than a few 10s of MB.
>
> But only because a machine with no Internet connectivity won't have a
> (graphical) web browser installed.  Those browser updates will happily
> chew through hundreds of MB per month.
>
>

Due to historical (hysterical? ;) choices I use SeaMonkey's generic 
Linux package I escape that.

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#182159

On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 14:37:08 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 07:28:09PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > Being bandwidth constrained is a consideration, but updates to a stable
> > installation rarely involve more than a few 10s of MB.
> 
> But only because a machine with no Internet connectivity won't have a
> (graphical) web browser installed.  Those browser updates will happily
> chew through hundreds of MB per month.

The invitation to update a browser can always be ignored if the download
exceeds or is close to the limit for the month. Most of the time a point
upgrade is modest. 

The essential point when bandwidth is a factor:

This machine doesn't access the internet: point upgrades are of marginal
relevance.

This machine does access the internet: judgement on whether the point
upgrade gives a cost-benefit advantage.

-- 
Brian.

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#182176

Greg Wooledge composed on 2017-06-13 14:37 (UTC-0400):

> Brian wrote:
.
>> Being bandwidth constrained is a consideration, but updates to a stable
>> installation rarely involve more than a few 10s of MB.
.
> But only because a machine with no Internet connectivity won't have a
> (graphical) web browser installed.  Those browser updates will happily
> chew through hundreds of MB per month.
.# apt-mark hold <default-web-browser-name>
# apt update; apt upgrade
...
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#182147

On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 09:20:43 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than a week ago. I
> have the flash drive used to do the original install of Stretch. I have not
> _intentionally_ purged any files from cache.

The cache will contain those files the installer got for you when you
selected and installed software, plus anything else you obtained after
the first reboot. For the sake of example let us suppose you installed
the mate desktop and the standard utilities.

The cache will not contain files from the base system, but that doesn't
matter because they are in the installer image, as is GRUB. The standard
system utilities are also in the image; no bandwidth penalty there.
 
> I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near my internet
> data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage of available bandwidth.

I've not completely thought this through but you definitely would not
want to use the select and install software option, apart from leaving
standard utiliites ticked. You also would not want a network mirror but,
unless you are going to use sneakernet, you will want networking in
order to be able to connect to your primary machine.
 
> The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself. That
> eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit will be learning
> more about how Debian does things.

After rebooting, create $HOME/debian and copy all the debs in the cache
on the primary machine to it. I think dpkg-scanpackages (in the dpkg-dev
package) might also have to be run. Your sources.list will have the
single line "deb file......" ; see the sources.list manual for details.
After that it's the usual apt-get update etc, etc.

-- 
Brian.

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#182149

On 06/13/2017 11:48 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 09:20:43 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than
>> a week ago. I have the flash drive used to do the original
>> install of Stretch. I have not _intentionally_ purged any files
>> from cache.
>
> The cache will contain those files the installer got for you when
> you selected and installed software, plus anything else you obtained
> after the first reboot. For the sake of example let us suppose you
> installed the mate desktop and the standard utilities.

That is my intention. I don't recall all of what I chose during the 
original install, but what I intend is guaranteed to be no more than the 
original.

>
> The cache will not contain files from the base system, but that
> doesn't matter because they are in the installer image, as is GRUB.
> The standard system utilities are also in the image; no bandwidth
> penalty there.
>
>> I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near
>> my internet data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage
>> of available bandwidth.
>
> I've not completely thought this through but you definitely would not
> want to use the select and install software option, apart from leaving
> standard utiliites ticked. You also would not want a network mirror
> but, unless you are going to use sneakernet, you will want networking
> in order to be able to connect to your primary machine.

I generally favor sneakernet whenever possible. I neglected to mention 
that I do not currently have a LAN. The time may have come.

>
>> The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself.
>> That eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit
>>will be learning more about how Debian does things.
>
> After rebooting, create $HOME/debian and copy all the debs in
> the cache on the primary machine to it. I think dpkg-scanpackages
> (in the dpkg-dev package) might also have to be run. Your
> sources.list will have the single line "deb file......" ; see the
> sources.list manual for details.
> After that it's the usual apt-get update etc, etc.
>

I wasn't sure of details, but I think my mental image has been a 
reasonable approximation of reality. We'll see.
Thanks.

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#182170

On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 12:28:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 06/13/2017 11:48 AM, Brian wrote:
> >On Tue 13 Jun 2017 at 09:20:43 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >
> >>I am running Stretch that was fully updated/upgraded less than
> >>a week ago. I have the flash drive used to do the original
> >>install of Stretch. I have not _intentionally_ purged any files
> >>from cache.
> >
> >The cache will contain those files the installer got for you when
> >you selected and installed software, plus anything else you obtained
> >after the first reboot. For the sake of example let us suppose you
> >installed the mate desktop and the standard utilities.
> 
> That is my intention. I don't recall all of what I chose during the
> original install, but what I intend is guaranteed to be no more than
> the original.
> 
> >
> >The cache will not contain files from the base system, but that
> >doesn't matter because they are in the installer image, as is GRUB.
> >The standard system utilities are also in the image; no bandwidth
> >penalty there.
> >
> >>I wish to install Stretch on two additional machines. I am near
> >>my internet data cap and wish to make *ABSOLUTE MINIMAL* usage
> >>of available bandwidth.

Then take one of those large USB sticks that you have, and copy
the contents of /var/cache/apt/archives/ (omit partial/ and lock)
onto it before you lose them.

In future, when you install from scratch, you can make this copy
before you finish the installation with the following:

When the "Select and install software" step finishes, switch to VC2
for a shell. Insert the USB stick and mount it somewhere (like /mnt
or /instmnt).
# cp /target/var/cache/apt/archives/*deb /<your USB stick>/
Unmount the stick and remove after copying has finished.
Switch back to VC1 and continue.

> >I've not completely thought this through but you definitely would not
> >want to use the select and install software option, apart from leaving
> >standard utiliites ticked. You also would not want a network mirror
> >but, unless you are going to use sneakernet, you will want networking
> >in order to be able to connect to your primary machine.
> 
> I generally favor sneakernet whenever possible. I neglected to
> mention that I do not currently have a LAN. The time may have come.

Regardless, on the next installation, during the "Configure the
package manager" step where you are asked whether you want to use
a network mirror, switch to VC2 for a shell. Insert the USB stick and
mount it somewhere (like /mnt or /instmnt).
# cp /<your USB stick>/*deb /target/var/cache/apt/archives/
Unmount the stick and remove after copying has finished.
Switch back to VC1 and continue.

> >>The purpose of this is to test the _installation process_ itself.
> >>That eliminates anything resembling cloning. A secondary benefit
> >>will be learning more about how Debian does things.

These two steps will get you started, and help preserve your precious
bandwidth while you get to learn about LANs, apt-cacher-ng and so on.

Cheers,
David.

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