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Debian installation issues

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  Debian installation issues David DLC <drvrddc@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 07:00 +0200
    Re: Debian installation issues <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-06-08 09:40 +0200
    Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 09:50 +0200
      Re: Debian installation issues <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-06-08 10:30 +0200
        Re: Debian installation issues David DLC <drvrddc@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 18:10 +0200
          Re: Debian installation issues Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-06-08 18:20 +0200
            Re: Debian installation issues David DLC <drvrddc@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 19:00 +0200
              Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 19:20 +0200
                Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 19:30 +0200
            Re: Debian installation issues Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-08 19:50 +0200
              Re: Debian installation issues Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2017-06-08 20:50 +0200
                Re: Debian installation issues Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-06-08 21:40 +0200
            Re: Debian installation issues Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-06-08 20:50 +0200
            Re: Debian installation issues Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-06-09 09:10 +0200
              Re: Debian installation issues "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-06-09 10:50 +0200
                Re: Debian installation issues Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-06-09 13:40 +0200
                  Re: Debian installation issues "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-06-09 16:30 +0200
                    Re: Debian installation issues Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2017-06-09 19:40 +0200
                      Re: Debian installation issues "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-06-09 20:50 +0200
                        Re: Debian installation issues "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-06-10 09:20 +0200
                          Re: Debian installation issues Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:10 +0200
                            Re: Debian installation issues Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2017-06-10 10:20 +0200
                              Re: Debian installation issues Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:50 +0200
                            Re: Debian installation issues "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-06-10 11:20 +0200
                    Re: Debian installation issues Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-06-09 19:40 +0200
                      Re: Debian installation issues Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-06-09 22:10 +0200
                        Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 23:00 +0200
                          Re: Debian installation issues Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-10 15:10 +0200
                            Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-11 16:00 +0200
                              Re: Debian installation issues Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-06-11 16:50 +0200
                Re: Debian installation issues Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 21:10 +0200
              Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 16:00 +0200
                Re: Debian installation issues Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2017-06-09 18:50 +0200
          Re: Debian installation issues Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 18:40 +0200
          Re: Debian installation issues David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2017-06-09 04:20 +0200
    Re: Debian installation issues didier gaumet <didier.gaumet@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 10:30 +0200

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#182000

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Debian installation issues
UTC Time: June 10, 2017 7:16 AM
From: scdbackup@gmx.net

Hi,

by mistake Fungi4All and i exchanged a few mails in private.
I put this back to the list (although it could deserve a new topic).

He showed me a xorriso report of a MS-Windows "ISO" (which we now
know is actually an UDF filesystem), and i stated the same as with
my reply here to Dan Ritter:

All by mistake of hitting reply instead of reply-all. It seems as Thomas
includes a header reply-to: Thom... which is passed on by the list
while others don't and the reply goes to list.

I would have to act against the specs.
To boot from hard disk or USB stick, there must be a Master Boot Record.

In linux alone the MBR is unnecessary and boot info can be stored in
each partition and be handled by grub or lilo. Correct?
If an MBR exists grub can have an entry within it including the MS
instructions as an option.

BIOS loads the 512 bytes of this first block of the disk and executes them
as 16 bit x86 program. This program then has to do what is necessary to
start the boot loader and later the operating system.

So this is always found in 0-512b and can not be relocated otherwise it will
not be and can not be found. Playing around with gparted one finds that
the order of logical and extended partitions in terms of labels as sda1...sdan
is not related to the sequence of the drive's sector. 3 can be in front of
1 and 6 be before 4 .. etc.

EFI only looks at the partition table. There are two kinds of table in
use: MBR based or GPT. In case of a MBR partition table, EFI looks for
a partition with type 0xef. If the MBR partition table only contains only
one partition starting at block 1, there might be a GUID Partition Table
where EFI looks for a partition with type GUID

Ok, GPT is a hole in knowledge base. Thanks for the heads up.

C12A7328-F81F-11D2-BA4B-00A0C93EC93B.
In the EFI partition there must be a FAT filesystem which contains
EFI boot programs like
/EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.EFI for amd64
/EFI/BOOT/BOOTIA32.EFI for i386
/EFI/BOOT/BOOTAA64.EFI for arm64

The EFI System Partition is in the MS-Windows image. But it is not
advertised by a partition table. Only by El Torito, which is to be
interpreted only if presented on CD, DVD, or BD media.

> Are you saying that the boot part of what I send you is pretty much the
> same as that of win10ent you downloaded? [...] that image is for a
> version of the system 3 generations back, [...]

The boot equipment is the same. El Torito for BIOS and EFI. No MBR.

This is on their installation disks, when you install MSw it utilizes the MBR
So making images or transferring the image of the installation disk is
different than cloning a win installation, correct? Still this does not explain
to me what specifically does Rufus do that I couldn't replicate in linux.
Same iso, same medium, will not boot up, you do it with rufus (which
asks what type of image are you burning in the cd/usb) and it boots up
first try.

> > The size 1 of the EFI System Partition says that it might extend
> > up to the end of the image or storage device.

> So whether it is on a 4gb medium or 256gb medium it wouldn't matter as
> it can not read that far.

El Torito can store only block counts up to 65535 which means 32 MiB minus
1 block. If the EFI partition is larger, then UEFI specs prescribe to set
the size field to 0 or 1, which both mean that it might reach up to the
end of the medium.
The FAT filesystem inside the EFI partition has its own size fields.
So a reader of the FAT filesystem will not be lured into reading blocks
which do not belong to the FAT filesystem.

In the case of Win10_1607_English_x64.iso there is really no need to
announce 0 or 1. The FAT filesystem is far smaller than 32 MB.

> > There seems to be not more than a single file in the ISO.
> > So possibly all the show happens inside the FAT filesystem of the
> > EFI System Partition.

> I suppose the installer and data is all compressed in one file

At least in case of Win10_1607_English_x64.iso my suspicion was wrong.
The show happens in the UDF filesystem. The EFI partition is too small
to contain much brain.

You would think that it would even make financial/economic sense, if they
all got together and agreed on one basic system for all, a simpler universal
bios chip and chipware, and all it would look for a pt and boot info in each
partition independently instead of each installation trying to conquer control
for the disk entirely and manage the rest. That would be a non-hierarchical
system allowed by the hardware. Here we have one system striving to be
alone, and the rest of the systems accepting cohabitation but wanting to be
in charge of when and how others will boot. Either linux starting msW or
msW preventing others from starting.

Have a nice day :)
Thomas

You too, more and more to study

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#182001

Le 10/06/2017 à 10:07, Fungi4All a écrit :
> From: scdbackup@gmx.net
>
> To boot from hard disk or USB stick, there must be a Master Boot Record.
>
> In linux alone the MBR is unnecessary and boot info can be stored in
> each partition and be handled by grub or lilo. Correct?

Not correct. A MBR is necessary for either BIOS or UEFI boot from this 
kind of device.

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#182002

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UTC Time: June 10, 2017 8:19 AM
From: pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org

Le 10/06/2017 à 10:07, Fungi4All a écrit :
> From: scdbackup@gmx.net
>
> To boot from hard disk or USB stick, there must be a Master Boot Record.
>
> In linux alone the MBR is unnecessary and boot info can be stored in
> each partition and be handled by grub or lilo. Correct?

Not correct. A MBR is necessary for either BIOS or UEFI boot from this
kind of device.

I just read the following on the necessity of some kind of an MBR
https://www.howtogeek.com/193669/whats-the-difference-between-gpt-and-mbr-when-partitioning-a-drive/

GPT drives tend to include a “protective MBR.” This type of MBR says that the GPT drive has a single partition that extends across the entire drive. If you try to manage a GPT disk with an old tool that can only read MBRs, it will see a single partition that extends across the entire drive. This protective MBR ensures the old tools won’t mistake the GPT drive for an unpartitioned drive and overwrite its GPT data with a new MBR. In other words, the protective MBR protects the GPT data from being overwritten.

Windows can only boot from GPT on UEFI-based computers running 64-bit versions of Windows 10, 8, 7, Vista, and corresponding server versions. All versions of Windows 10, 8, 7, and Vista can read GPT drives and use them for data—they just can’t boot from them without UEFI.

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#182003

Hi,

> In linux alone the MBR is unnecessary and boot info can be stored in
> each partition and be handled by grub or lilo.  Correct?

Not really. A hard-disk-like device that is bootable via BIOS or EFI
must have an MBR. For BIOS because of the x86 prgram. For EFI because
of the need for a partition table. Either MBR partitions or GPT.

Bootloaders like GRUB install their own MBR programs and/or prepare an
EFI System Partition. This happens when you install the boot loader.

As mentioned previously, there is also the boot flag convention, which
is _not_ followed by GRUB and SYSLINUX. This convention expects a program
in the MBR which looks for the boot flag in the MBR partition table.
Then it loads the first block of the partition which has the boot flag
and executes the loaded bytes as x86 program. Aka "chainloading".


> So this is always found in 0-512b and can not be relocated otherwise it
> will  not be and can not be found.

Yes. The starting points for BIOS and EFI are in the first 512 bytes.
The minimum requirement for an MBR is that byte 510 must have value 0x55
and byte 511 must have value 0xaa.
But BIOS expects some mindful program bytes for the CPU. EFI expects
at least one partition in the MBR partition table. So there must be some
more beef which depends on the programmer's discretion and skills.


> the order of logical and extended partitions in terms of labels as
> sda1...sdan is not related to the sequence of the drive's sector.

I guess Linux attributes the partition numbers according to the item
numbers in the partition table. "sda1" is not a property of the partition,
but rather a name handed out by the kernel.
The partition table formats do not enforce that partition items are
sorted by start address and do not overlap.


> Ok, GPT is a hole in knowledge base.  Thanks for the heads up.

To be clear: Most Linux installation ISOs let EFI boot from an MBR
partition of type 0xef when presented on USB stick. Even if they
contain a GPT, it is invalid and the partition with the EFI FAT filesystem
is not marked by the proper type GUID. (Yada yada ...)

If you want to see an ISO with effective GPT then install packages
grub-pc, grub-efi-ia32-bin, grub-efi-amd64-bin, and run
  grub-mkrescue -o test.iso /usr/bin/grub-mkrescue
(It wants a file as payload. So it gets the job to pack up itself.)

The resulting file test.iso is equipped with MBR, a single MBR partition
of type 0xee, and a valid GUID Partition Table.
Partition editor gdisk should be happy with it if it does not take
offense of the Apple Partition Map that is present, too.


> > El Torito for BIOS and EFI. No MBR.
> This is on their installation disks, when you install MSw it utilizes the
> MBR

Somewhere in the UDF filesystem must be the bytes which it installs as
MBR boot program and/or the bytes which it installs as EFI System
Partition.


> So making images or transferring the image of the installation disk is
> different than cloning a win installation, correct?

I have problems with the MS-Windows specific terms.
So i cannot answer this.
The image is not prepared to be put plainly on an USB stick and to then boot
like a contemporary Debian ISO is. 


> Still this does not explain
> to me what specifically does Rufus do that I couldn't replicate in linux.

I guess it unpacks the UDF filesystem to a partition on the USB stick
and installs the necessary MBR plus boot loader software.

You could completely erase a stick by doing
  dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX
until it reports i/o error. sdX would be the address of your USB stick.

Then let Rufus bring the MS-Windows ISO onto the stick. Afterwards unplug,
replug, and examine the freshly emerged partitioning of the stick.
Mount the partitions and inspect the content of their filesystems.
Compare with the content of the UDF filesystem in the "ISO".


> You would think that it would even make financial/economic sense, if they
> all got together and agreed on one basic system for all, a simpler universal
> bios chip and chipware,

Intel rather went the virtual way and defined the EFI operating system,
which is to be implemented by mainboard producers. The chips are supposed
to not matter, as long as the EFI implementation obeys the specs.

Obedience is limited. Some EFIs are too forgiving, others impose extra
demands like the need for some other partition with boot flag if EFI shall
boot from a MBR partition of type 0xef.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#181983

On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:24:20 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> i wrote:
> > > Are there any [MS-Windows] images available for free and legally
> > > safe  
> 
> Joe wrote:
> > Oddly enough, there are:
> > https://www.microsoft.com/en-GB/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-10-enterprise  
> 
> The registration gives me creeps. I came up to the question whether
> i want to use a Microsoft or LinkedIn account. The Microsoft account
> creation asks me ifor info which i'd rather not want to give.
> 

I have a very old (@hotmail.com) emergency Hotmail account, which is
still acceptable as a Microsoft ID, though MS truncated the password
to 16 characters some years ago. I bought MS Access for a client using
it about a year ago. I've no idea what information I gave to create it,
but that must have been around 20 years ago.

> The description speaks of "Windows 10 Enterprise, version 1703 |
> 64-bit ISO" which lets me expect that one really would get a ISO 9660
> filesystem image.

I think so, my only concern was how big it is, it may only fit on a
Blu-Ray disc, or not even that.
> 
> I cannot find a legal statement whether it is permissible to give the
> ISO image to others. So i have to assume that there is no such
> permission. All in all i am not yet curious enough to start a legal
> relation with Microsoft Inc.

Me neither, but it *is* a free and legally installable MS OS, fulfilling
the conditions... there are also Win 8 versions. I may possibly still
have NT4 180-day evaluation CDs somewhere in my loft, but probably the
installation is date-limited and won't work. Though they would still
work as a test of iso-burning and booting.

-- 
Joe

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#181987

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Here is some relevant reading of installing linux system besides Win8 and in some cases the same problem exists on Win 10.
https://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-alongside-a-pre-installed-windows-with-uefi

Ok, MS did what they did, but manufacturers accepted this and incorporated it into their product which you pay.
It is like paying for an MS only system without knowing it.

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#181988

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On 9 June 2017 at 20:59, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Here is some relevant reading of installing linux system besides Win8 and
> in some cases the same problem exists on Win 10.
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-alongside-a-pre-
> installed-windows-with-uefi
>


​I read through some of this.  If I understood it correctly, if you buy a
machine that comes with e.g. Windows 10 installed for you then this secure
boot feature would make it difficult to boot and install certain Linux
distributions - but some versions of Ubuntu might be OK apparently.

But if you would buy such a machine, do you not also get the Windows key
codes for the OS.......?????

If you do, then could you not just back up the work files on the
installation and then uninstall Windows and reinstall it with the secure
boot feature turned off and then install the Linux distro of your choice?

When I get a new PC I specifically request that it has no operating system
on it and then install everything from scratch.

I have not encountered this problem as yet.

Cheers

MF









>
> Ok, MS did what they did, but manufacturers accepted this and incorporated
> it into their product which you pay.
> It is like paying for an MS only system without knowing it.
>

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#182013

On 06/09/2017 03:37 PM, Michael Fothergill wrote:
> On 9 June 2017 at 20:59, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is some relevant reading of installing linux system besides Win8 and
>> in some cases the same problem exists on Win 10.
>> https://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-alongside-a-pre-
>> installed-windows-with-uefi
>>
>
>
> ​I read through some of this.  If I understood it correctly, if you buy a
> machine that comes with e.g. Windows 10 installed for you then this secure
> boot feature would make it difficult to boot and install certain Linux
> distributions - but some versions of Ubuntu might be OK apparently.
>
> But if you would buy such a machine, do you not also get the Windows key
> codes for the OS.......?????
>
> If you do, then could you not just back up the work files on the
> installation and then uninstall Windows and reinstall it with the
> secure boot feature turned off and then install the Linux distro
> of your choice?
>
> When I get a new PC I specifically request that it has no operating
> system on it and then install everything from scratch.

I follow a variation on that that suits my personal/idiosyncratic 
preferences for buying used/reconditioned hardware (no need for cutting 
edge) and buying locally rather than online (fewer communication snafus).

I go into the store with a live DVD or flash drive. I began doing this 
to see if a standard install of Debian had appropriate drivers. I found 
a secondary advantage in discovering how straight forward it was to boot 
from something other than the default hard disk. A couple months ago I 
had occasion to go one step further and while and do a full install 
while in the store (odd permutation of hardware and software).
YMMV


>
> I have not encountered this problem as yet.

I'm not clear to what "this problem" refers.

>
> Cheers
>
> MF

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#182075

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On 10 June 2017 at 14:05, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:

> On 06/09/2017 03:37 PM, Michael Fothergill wrote:
>
>> On 9 June 2017 at 20:59, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here is some relevant reading of installing linux system besides Win8 and
>>> in some cases the same problem exists on Win 10.
>>> https://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-
>>> alongside-a-pre-
>>> installed-windows-with-uefi
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ​I read through some of this.  If I understood it correctly, if you buy a
>> machine that comes with e.g. Windows 10 installed for you then this secure
>> boot feature would make it difficult to boot and install certain Linux
>> distributions - but some versions of Ubuntu might be OK apparently.
>>
>> But if you would buy such a machine, do you not also get the Windows key
>> codes for the OS.......?????
>>
>> If you do, then could you not just back up the work files on the
>> installation and then uninstall Windows and reinstall it with the
>> secure boot feature turned off and then install the Linux distro
>> of your choice?
>>
>> When I get a new PC I specifically request that it has no operating
>> system on it and then install everything from scratch.
>>
>
> I follow a variation on that that suits my personal/idiosyncratic
> preferences for buying used/reconditioned hardware (no need for cutting
> edge) and buying locally rather than online (fewer communication snafus).
>
> I go into the store with a live DVD or flash drive. I began doing this to
> see if a standard install of Debian had appropriate drivers. I found a
> secondary advantage in discovering how straight forward it was to boot from
> something other than the default hard disk. A couple months ago I had
> occasion to go one step further and while and do a full install while in
> the store (odd permutation of hardware and software).
> YMMV
>
>
>
>> I have not encountered this problem as yet.
>>
>
> I'm not clear to what "this problem" refers.
>

​As I understand it, it is possible to purchase a PC or laptop which has
Windows 10 preinstalled on the hard drive.

Apparently the default installation in a UEFI capable machine includes
something called the "secure boot" facility.  This new feature makes
installing Linux distros difficult in some cases.
We have been trying to help the OP with this problem.

Regards

MF

​


>
>
>> Cheers
>>
>> MF
>>
>
>
>
>

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#182076

On 06/11/2017 08:34 AM, Michael Fothergill wrote:
> On 10 June 2017 at 14:05, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>
>> On 06/09/2017 03:37 PM, Michael Fothergill wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 June 2017 at 20:59, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is some relevant reading of installing linux system besides Win8 and
>>>> in some cases the same problem exists on Win 10.
>>>> https://askubuntu.com/questions/221835/installing-ubuntu-
>>>> alongside-a-pre-
>>>> installed-windows-with-uefi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ​I read through some of this.  If I understood it correctly, if you buy a
>>> machine that comes with e.g. Windows 10 installed for you then this secure
>>> boot feature would make it difficult to boot and install certain Linux
>>> distributions - but some versions of Ubuntu might be OK apparently.
>>>
>>> But if you would buy such a machine, do you not also get the Windows key
>>> codes for the OS.......?????
>>>
>>> If you do, then could you not just back up the work files on the
>>> installation and then uninstall Windows and reinstall it with the
>>> secure boot feature turned off and then install the Linux distro
>>> of your choice?
>>>
>>> When I get a new PC I specifically request that it has no operating
>>> system on it and then install everything from scratch.
>>>
>>
>> I follow a variation on that that suits my personal/idiosyncratic
>> preferences for buying used/reconditioned hardware (no need for cutting
>> edge) and buying locally rather than online (fewer communication snafus).
>>
>> I go into the store with a live DVD or flash drive. I began doing this to
>> see if a standard install of Debian had appropriate drivers. I found a
>> secondary advantage in discovering how straight forward it was to boot from
>> something other than the default hard disk. A couple months ago I had
>> occasion to go one step further and while and do a full install while in
>> the store (odd permutation of hardware and software).
>> YMMV
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have not encountered this problem as yet.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not clear to what "this problem" refers.
>>
>
> ​As I understand it, it is possible to purchase a PC or laptop which has
> Windows 10 preinstalled on the hard drive.
>
> Apparently the default installation in a UEFI capable machine includes
> something called the "secure boot" facility.  This new feature makes
> installing Linux distros difficult in some cases.
> We have been trying to help the OP with this problem.
>

Thank you. I hadn't been sure if you were referring to his overall 
problem or a specific aspect.

 From a Ubuntu related reference someone gave, "secure boot" is a known 
problem for his hardware.

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#181985

On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 10:47:25 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Fungi4All wrote:
> > try from linux to burn an
> > ms-win-installation image, chances are that you will fail despite of what
> > way you may try to do so.
> 
> Are there any such images available for free and legally safe to have
> and to talk about ?

Well, Microsoft will let you download ISOs to do a Windows install,
although you'll need a product key to activate it:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows8ISO

I went through this procedure a while back when I bought a ThinkPad
with Windows installed. I installed Debian on the bare metal, and then
used the ISO (burned onto a USB, with a simple dd, IIRC) to reinstall
Windows in a qemu-kvm VM.

Celejar

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#181969

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On 9 June 2017 at 08:01, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:

>
> UTC Time: June 8, 2017 4:17 PM
> From: wooledg@eeg.ccf.org
>
> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 11:08:32AM -0500, David DLC wrote:
> > Thank you for all the replies! I haven't really used a mailing list
> before,
> > so I'm not 100% sure I'm responding to the correct location. Do I hit
> > "reply all" or just reply to the debian-user@lists.debian.org address?
>
> For this mailing list, you are expected to ..........
>
>
> whaaat ever ....
>
> > Anyway, I have disabled secure boot, but that didn't seem to solve the
> > problem. My computer does not have a DVD drive, so I put the ISO (
> > debian-8.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso) on a USB stick. When booting my
> computer, I
> > specifically click "use a device", then "USB Drive (UEFI)". The computer
> > runs for a minute, then pops up the error message. I don't think boot
> order
> > would change this, as I am booting specifically from the USB. I forgot to
> > mention that I am attempting to dual boot my computer, so I don't wish to
> > remove Windows completely.
>
> If you used Windows to put the ISO image onto the USB stick, it's
> quite possible it wasn't done correctly.
>
>
> Get used to Greg on this list making vague assumptions on things and
> blaming the victim for anything the victim is having problems with, never
> the system.  The system must not be challenged.
> In trying to convince others to switch from windows to a better and higher
> performing system, despite of hardware, one must learn to work with windows
> to begin with, because nobody is willing to wipe everything they have off
> and start with a clean disk.
> Rufus in my experience has been 100% reliable in burning images of all
> sorts.  It is small and fast.  If in reverse try from linux to burn an
> ms-win-installation image, chances are that you will fail despite of what
> way you may try to do so.  Propbably Thomas from xorisso fame can explain
> better the whys and why nots.  I give up trying to understand the reasons.
> Let's hope you do not live in isolation, there are others with a pc around
> you and not all run win10.  Try and boot your stick in their system, no
> harm can be done if you don't install anythin.  If by any chance you make a
> debian-live-installation image you may even get to see debian come a-live
> without an installation.
> Since the debian world is really poor in applied technical information
> location, try the ubuntu (askubuntu) for help/faq.  It is a friendlier
> environment and easier to find solutions.  99% of what you will find there
> works for debian too.  Especially on this specific issue there is a ton of
> instructions.
>
> The #debian bot currently recommends <http://sf.net/projects/
> win32diskimager/>
> if you need to write the Debian install image to a USB device from
> Windows.
>
>
> I am willing to bet the image written through rufus is fine, your problem
> is booting up from usb as people have mentioned before.  I like to assume
> that you did not install win10 in an older pc but bought a recent pc with
> win10 in it. The following will not help you "fix your problem" but it is
> more like talking about THE problem so your frustration is not misdirected
> to the wrong direction.
> MS with win10, using the excuse of a protection of your system, managed to
> effectively block other systems of getting installed next to win10.
>

​Is this really the case?  I use windows 10 and it does not stop me running
a triple boot system on a single disk.

Try using grub2win: https://sourceforge.net/projects/grub2win/  - install
it in windows 10 and play around with it and see if you can get it to see
your usb stick.

Regards

MF




> So ms to promote themselves and diminish competition (what's new?) did
> what they did.  Then they manhandled manufacturers to incorporate their
> evil into what they sell to you.  And you paid for this problem to your
> ventor.  Did you know when you purchased your product and license you
> became part of the problem people are addressing to solve?
> Why not a worldwide class action suit against manufacturers, vendors, and
> retailers of all sorts for not warning you the product is nearly useless
> without win10?  Thanks to some who resist and make and sell linux based
> products off the shelf.  Let's not talk about fruit vendors here.
> If not, you deserve what you got, and I am sorry to have to tell you.  I
> think you should go back to whoever sold you a lemon for an apple and make
> them either pay you back what you paid of install Debian for you on your
> partition.  It should only take 20' not several days.
> Ohhh... you accepted some license that told you so in the fine print?  I
> am sorry!  Really ....  keep paying for problems you distribute around.
>
> If you're doing it from a Unix/Linux system, then follow the
> instructions at <http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03>
>
>
> I have given up reading any documentation from debian, it is all written
> by developers for engineers and vice-versa.  If you are not one of them it
> is a waste of time.  If you read the instructions on how to write a
> document from your pc to a usb disk, chances are that you will need to
> learn 5 more things to do so, and each one of them will require learning 5
> other new things, and so on and forth and back.  It is easier to copy the
> document in marble with a cheasel than learn all this.  Depending on your
> psychological profile you may actually like all this. Welcome to our world
> of whips and chains.
>
> It is nowhere as boring as windows world but you never have to worry of
> buying the wrong license.
>
> Now if you would rather install a more humaine and civil system try
> Manjaro.  The choice is like a Pegasus with broken wings, constantly, and a
> horse incapable of flying.
> Greg will convince you the horse is capable of flying, you just need to
> understand how or accept that it was you that broke its wings.
>
> Cheers, mate
> Keep the shiny side up (an old bold bikerz for jessaash saying)
>

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#181981

Hi,

On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:34:47 +0100
Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> wrote:

(...)
> > I am willing to bet the image written through rufus is fine, your
> > problem is booting up from usb as people have mentioned before.  I
> > like to assume that you did not install win10 in an older pc but
> > bought a recent pc with win10 in it. The following will not help you
> > "fix your problem" but it is more like talking about THE problem so
> > your frustration is not misdirected to the wrong direction.
> > MS with win10, using the excuse of a protection of your system,
> > managed to effectively block other systems of getting installed next
> > to win10.
> >
> 
> ​Is this really the case?  I use windows 10 and it does not stop me
> running a triple boot system on a single disk.
> 
> Try using grub2win: https://sourceforge.net/projects/grub2win/  -
> install it in windows 10 and play around with it and see if you can get
> it to see your usb stick.

A while ago I installed linux (not debian, but I don't think that matters
here) onto a laptop with a pre-installed win10, there was not any problem
with the EFI/BIOS finding the usb thumb drive with the installer iso and
booting into it. Hence I doubt that the OP's problem is that windows
prevents him from booting the install media. I did not follow this thread
closely from the beginning, but I believe it is more likely that either
the installer drive was not set up correctly or that some Efi/Bios
setting is not correct. Or maybe it is one of these odd devices that have
been discussed here a couple of days ago in a different thread, which are
64bit machines with a 32bit EFI.

Regards

Michael



.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

No one can guarantee the actions of another.
		-- Spock, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown

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#181942

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 8 June 2017 at 17:08, David DLC <drvrddc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for all the replies! I haven't really used a mailing list
> before, so I'm not 100% sure I'm responding to the correct location. Do I
> hit "reply all" or just reply to the debian-user@lists.debian.org address?
>
> Anyway, I have disabled secure boot, but that didn't seem to solve the
> problem. My computer does not have a DVD drive, so I put the ISO (
> debian-8.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso) on a USB stick. When booting my computer,
> I specifically click "use a device", then "USB Drive (UEFI)". The computer
> runs for a minute, then pops up the error message. I don't think boot order
> would change this, as I am booting specifically from the USB. I forgot to
> mention that I am attempting to dual boot my computer, so I don't wish to
> remove Windows completely.
>
> I have also tried rewriting the ISO multiple times, with both the complete
> and smaller installation sets. I can try another USB stick, but I don't
> have any lying around and would likely need to purchase a new one.
>
>
​You are posting correctly as far as I can see.  I have used Rufus and it
worked easily.  I assume that your usb stick works OK to store files in the
conventional way.

I have found that I needed to repeat usb stick iso file burning or whatever
term you use for it; sometimes it didn't work ie wouldn't boot from it the
first time - try wiping the stick and using Rufus again to burn the iso
onto it and have another go.

Cheers

MF
​


> I have attached the system info if anyone would like to take a look:
>
> OS Name Microsoft Windows 10 Home
> Version 10.0.14393 Build 14393
> Other OS Description  Not Available
> OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
> System Name DAVIDDLC
> System Manufacturer Hewlett-Packard
> System Model HP Spectre XT TouchSmart PC
> System Type x64-based PC
> System SKU C2M71UA#ABA
> Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3517U CPU @ 1.90GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s),
> 4 Logical Processor(s)
> BIOS Version/Date Insyde F.04, 11/10/2012
> SMBIOS Version 2.7
> Embedded Controller Version 68.57
> BIOS Mode UEFI
> BaseBoard Manufacturer Hewlett-Packard
> BaseBoard Model Not Available
> BaseBoard Name Base Board
> Platform Role Mobile
> Secure Boot State Off
> PCR7 Configuration Binding Not Possible
> Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
> System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
> Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume2
> Locale United States
> Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "10.0.14393.206"
> User Name DAVIDDLC\Other_2
> Time Zone Central Daylight Time
> Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 8.00 GB
> Total Physical Memory 7.90 GB
> Available Physical Memory 5.79 GB
> Total Virtual Memory 9.15 GB
> Available Virtual Memory 7.08 GB
> Page File Space 1.25 GB
> Page File C:\pagefile.sys
> Hyper-V - VM Monitor Mode Extensions Yes
> Hyper-V - Second Level Address Translation Extensions Yes
> Hyper-V - Virtualization Enabled in Firmware No
> Hyper-V - Data Execution Protection Yes
>

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#181959

On 06/08/2017 09:08 AM, David DLC wrote:
>  HP Spectre XT TouchSmart PC

The first task is to get a known good USB flash drive with the Debian 
installer in it.  Is there a local Linux Users Group, or do you have a 
knowledgeable friend, who can help you with this?


The next task is booting the Debian installer USB flash drive.  This is 
a matter of adjusting BIOS/EFI/UEFI firmware settings until you find a 
combination that works.  Be sure to write down the factory settings 
before you start, as you will likely break the ability of the computer 
to boot Windows.  Finding one configuration that boots either, selected 
via a POST hot key, would be ideal.


The next task is installing Debian on the computer.  Dual-boot sounds 
appealing, but I found it to be a PITA to implement and maintain.  It is 
far easier to give each operating system its own system drive.  For my 
desktop and server machines, I put the HDD/SSD in mobile racks.  I am 
fortunate it that my older Dell Latitude E1505 laptop puts the HDD in an 
externally-accessible bay.


Looking at the Maintenance and Service Guide for your computer:

http://www.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c03572829.pdf

   Hard drive
     Support for 6.35-cm (2.5-in) hard drives in 7.0-mm (.28-in) thickness
     Serial ATA
     Support for hard drive configuration as cache 32-GB mSATA 
(installed with hard drive only)
     Support for Accelerometer hard drive protection
     Support for the following hard drives:
     ● 500-GB, 7200-rpm, 7.0-mm
     ● 500-GB, 5400-rpm, 7.0-mm

   Solid-state drive
     Support for mSATA solid-state drives
     Serial ATA III
     Support for the following single solid-state drive configurations:
     ● 256-GB mSATA
     ● 128-GB mSATA
     Support for Intel Smart Response Technology 32-GB solid-state drive


I would suggest using a 2.5" HDD/SSD for Windows and using an mSATA SSD 
for Debian.  If your computer has both and the mSATA device is 
configured as a cache, you will want to reconfigure the firmware and/or 
Windows to stop using the cache before you install Debian.


David

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#181915

As Tomas and Michael have suggested, you might have a look at your
BIOS/UEFI setup in order to verify the boot order and to disable Secure
Boot: disabling Fast Boot has nothing to do witrh Secure Boot and Debian
cannot manage Secure Boot without special procedures

It is worth noting that the Debian Installer can be launched from inside
Microsoft Windows: try to plug your stick in a USD port from your
running Windows and then execute setup.exe (it is in the root folder of
the stick). You could also directltly go to
https://people.debian.org/~rmh/goodbye-microsoft/ to load the installer
from internet.
As simple as you can get...
(cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win32-loader)

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