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Debian Developers Have Been Listening!

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  Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 18:50 +0200
    Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Dominik George <nik@naturalnet.de> - 2017-05-18 19:10 +0200
      Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 15:40 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Dominik George <nik@naturalnet.de> - 2017-05-20 16:30 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Cat <cat@zip.com.au> - 2017-05-20 16:40 +0200
          Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 16:50 +0200
          Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 12:10 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2017-05-20 17:40 +0200
          Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 18:30 +0200
            Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-05-21 23:50 +0200
              Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-05-22 02:20 +0200
    Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 19:30 +0200
    Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-19 16:20 +0200
      Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 22:50 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 01:50 +0200
          Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 17:30 +0200
            Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 19:20 +0200
    Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 01:40 +0200
      Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 23:20 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 09:40 +0200
          Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-05-24 09:40 +0200
        Re: Debian Developers Have Been Listening! Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 11:50 +0200

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#181304

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 23 May 2017 at 22:19, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:30:15 +0900 Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A while ago, I initiated the "If Linux Is About Choice ..." thread
> > > about why there is no choice of inits during an initial install.
> > >
> > > Since that time, I've tested several systemd-less distros[1] as
> > > well as Stretch as replacements for my aging Wheezy system.  With
> > > Stretch my plan was to see if I could replace systemd as the init
> > > without removing it just leaving its components (some or all as
> > > necessary) to meet dependencies without it breaking the system
> >
> > ???
>
> Could you be a little more specific?  Or should I?
>
> > > That way there would be no
> > > need for third party repos or jumping through hoops to keep a
> > > systemd-less working. I figured it would be a somewhat difficult,
> > > time consuming process. However, I made a discovery during these
> > > tests: The Debian developers had already done it for me.  They made
> > > switching from systemd as the init to sysvinit or runit easy just
> > > by issuing a couple commands. Here's what you do.
> >
> > I thought that information came out several times in the thread you
> > mention having started -- that it was possible to install the base
> > system, then disable and remove the main systemd component, just
> > leaving some of the pieces that have been picked up as dependencies
> > by other packages.
>
> That scenerio was mentioned and was known by me, but usually used to
> prevent systemd from being installed all.  But since Debian is now
> systemd dependent and doing that will cause problems.  You either have
> to use third party repos or compile stuff yourself, have local repos,
> etc just to get things to work.  I ended up with a simplier solution:
> Just treat systemd like any other dependency, then no special repos,
> compiling, etc.  And it worked!  And the Stretch developers made it
> easy to do which wasn't available with Jessie. Thank you developers.
>

​I am moved to tears by this.....  It is a tribute to human ingenuity, to
conflict resolution, to WHO mental health goals
and at the same time it represents a subtle troll bamboozling and
befuddling spam filter for the list here.

My God Bless you all....!

MF​



>
> My original thread was on why there is no choice of init at install
> time. You have choices on almost everything else. Anyway, most of the
> answers were ambiguous, a few acrimonious.  No matter.
>
> > Maybe the discussion of using more advanced techniques to keep from
> > ever installing systemd in the first place hid the information about
> > the removal approach.
>
> Too many hoops to jump through to eliminate systemd if major
> components (GNOME, udev, udisks2, policykit-1, etc) have it (or parts of
> it) as dependencies.  Just look at all Devuan had to go through to do
> it.
>
> > If so, it would seem to be worthwhile to have this separate thread,
> > as well.
>
> I don't think it would do any good.  Debian has chosen systemd, for
> better or worse, and I don't see that changing.  Users and
> administrators will either adapt or adopt another distro.
>
> I just hope my little "fix" is useful to someone else.  FWIW, I found
> without systemd as the init and supervisor, I have about 7.5 MB more
> free RAM.
>
> B
>
>

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#181305

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 08:13:43AM +0100, Michael Fothergill wrote:

[...]

> I am moved to tears by this.....  It is a tribute to human ingenuity, to
> conflict resolution [...]

Please.

Either contribute something constructive or just shut up.
This kind of infantile behaviour just poisons the list for the
rest of us. On whichever side of The Big Rift we may live.

And *if* you feel the urge to vent off at other people's expense,
then at least have the courtesy of quoting properly, instead of
dumping all the original post in your reply.

- -- t
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlklN6gACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYAiACePO+BZuSIkkSYEF2uLqwE6E8E
LXgAn0r6MSsqH3NetBlVcY8XtfPKz0Xd
=Adf0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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#181307

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 6:19 AM, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:30:15 +0900 Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > A while ago, I initiated the "If Linux Is About Choice ..." thread
>> > about why there is no choice of inits during an initial install.
>> >
>> > Since that time, I've tested several systemd-less distros[1] as
>> > well as Stretch as replacements for my aging Wheezy system.  With
>> > Stretch my plan was to see if I could replace systemd as the init
>> > without removing it just leaving its components (some or all as
>> > necessary) to meet dependencies without it breaking the system
>>
>> ???
>
> Could you be a little more specific?  Or should I?

Thank you for being more specific.

>> > That way there would be no
>> > need for third party repos or jumping through hoops to keep a
>> > systemd-less working. I figured it would be a somewhat difficult,
>> > time consuming process. However, I made a discovery during these
>> > tests: The Debian developers had already done it for me.  They made
>> > switching from systemd as the init to sysvinit or runit easy just
>> > by issuing a couple commands. Here's what you do.
>>
>> I thought that information came out several times in the thread you
>> mention having started -- that it was possible to install the base
>> system, then disable and remove the main systemd component, just
>> leaving some of the pieces that have been picked up as dependencies
>> by other packages.
>
> That scenerio was mentioned and was known by me, but usually used to
> prevent systemd from being installed all.  But since Debian is now
> systemd dependent and doing that will cause problems.  You either have
> to use third party repos or compile stuff yourself, have local repos,
> etc just to get things to work.  I ended up with a simplier solution:
> Just treat systemd like any other dependency, then no special repos,
> compiling, etc.  And it worked!  And the Stretch developers made it
> easy to do which wasn't available with Jessie. Thank you developers.
>
> My original thread was on why there is no choice of init at install
> time. You have choices on almost everything else. Anyway, most of the
> answers were ambiguous, a few acrimonious.  No matter.
>
>> Maybe the discussion of using more advanced techniques to keep from
>> ever installing systemd in the first place hid the information about
>> the removal approach.
>
> Too many hoops to jump through to eliminate systemd if major
> components (GNOME, udev, udisks2, policykit-1, etc) have it (or parts of
> it) as dependencies.  Just look at all Devuan had to go through to do
> it.
>
>> If so, it would seem to be worthwhile to have this separate thread,
>> as well.
>
> I don't think it would do any good.  Debian has chosen systemd, for
> better or worse, and I don't see that changing.  Users and
> administrators will either adapt or adopt another distro.
>
> I just hope my little "fix" is useful to someone else.  FWIW, I found
> without systemd as the init and supervisor, I have about 7.5 MB more
> free RAM.
>
> B
>

When I have enough money to replace this half-broken laptop I'm using,
I'll probably post more questions on the above.

Thanks.


--
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with a bare cast.

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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