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Measuring aggregate internet useage?

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  Measuring aggregate internet useage? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-23 12:30 +0200
    Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2017-04-24 11:40 +0200
      Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-24 13:00 +0200
        Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-24 13:20 +0200
        Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-04-24 13:20 +0200
        Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz> - 2017-04-24 23:20 +0200
          Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-25 15:20 +0200
            BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-26 14:20 +0200
              Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-04-26 14:30 +0200
                Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-04-26 14:40 +0200
                  Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-04-26 15:00 +0200
                    Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-26 15:40 +0200
                    Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-26 16:40 +0200
                      Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2017-04-26 17:10 +0200
                        Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Jörg-Volker Peetz <jvpeetz@web.de> - 2017-04-26 17:40 +0200
                      Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 17:10 +0200
                        Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-26 22:30 +0200
                          Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-27 08:50 +0200
                          Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-04-27 20:30 +0200
                          Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-05-01 21:00 +0200
                      Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-05-01 20:40 +0200
                    Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-05-01 20:20 +0200
                      Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-05-01 20:50 +0200
                        Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-05-01 21:40 +0200
              Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-04-26 14:40 +0200
                Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 16:10 +0200
                  Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-04-26 16:20 +0200
                    Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 16:30 +0200
                      Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-04-26 16:40 +0200
                        Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-04-26 18:00 +0200
                  Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-26 16:40 +0200
              Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet  useage?] Jochen Spieker <ml@well-adjusted.de> - 2017-04-26 14:40 +0200

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#180415 — Measuring aggregate internet useage?

I have always installed Debian from purchased DVD sets as up until about 
a year ago I was on dialup. I wish to experiment with using netinst. I 
have a minimal data cap but have accumulated enough unused capacity that 
I should be able a normal install.

I'm not sure of my search terms as the hits I get are for grossly more 
fine detail than needed. I wish to measure total usage over the time 
period of the install process.

I connect over the cell network using a T-Mobile 4G Hotspot Z915 using 
its USB connection.

Can I do what I want?
What background reading should I do?
A major motivation is self education.
TIA

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#180441

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Can I do what I want?
> What background reading should I do?
> A major motivation is self education.
> TIA

Best check would be t-mobile's site showing how much data you've used.
Sure, the card's local info may be close ... but when the boll comes,
it's not your numbers that t-mobile will use.

Though, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're after?

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

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#180443

On 04/24/2017 04:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Can I do what I want?
>> What background reading should I do?
>> A major motivation is self education.
>> TIA
>
> Best check would be t-mobile's site showing how much data you've used.

Their records are focused on monthly totals.
I'm focused on a 4 or 5 hour time block encompassing activities with 
doing a netinst. It would include not only the data from repository but 
my web searches when finding out that what I "knew" just wasn't true.

> Sure, the card's local info may be close

"... card's local info ..."???
That suggests that exactly the desired data may be available

I see two general problems with the usage apps I found:
  1. They are too focused on groups of packets to/from specific IP
     addresses.
  2. I don't see how they could be active during an install without
     a significant rewrite of the installer.

If there were user accessible registers with a running total of 
uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal 
granularity.

I haven't looked at T-Mobile's pages about the Z915 in months.
Will report back if I find something.
Are there other Z915 users here?
Thank you.





> ... but when the boll comes,
> it's not your numbers that t-mobile will use.
>
> Though, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're after?
>

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#180444

On 04/24/2017 05:58 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/24/2017 04:22 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> Can I do what I want?
>>> What background reading should I do?
>>> A major motivation is self education.
>>> TIA
>>
>> Best check would be t-mobile's site showing how much data you've used.
>
> Their records are focused on monthly totals.
> I'm focused on a 4 or 5 hour time block encompassing activities with
> doing a netinst. It would include not only the data from repository but
> my web searches when finding out that what I "knew" just wasn't true.
>
>> Sure, the card's local info may be close
>
> "... card's local info ..."???
> That suggests that exactly the desired data may be available
>
> I see two general problems with the usage apps I found:
>  1. They are too focused on groups of packets to/from specific IP
>     addresses.
>  2. I don't see how they could be active during an install without
>     a significant rewrite of the installer.
>
> If there were user accessible registers with a running total of
> uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal
> granularity.
>
> I haven't looked at T-Mobile's pages about the Z915 in months.
> Will report back if I find something.
> Are there other Z915 users here?
> Thank you.
>

I feel sheepish rather than as wise as an owl ;{
Documentation is at
  https://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-29076 .
Exact data desired at
  http://mobile.hotspot/index.html#traffic_statistics .

Had I not just said "...  when finding out that what I "knew" just 
wasn't true."

The documentation page was even in my bookmarks.

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#180445

On Monday, April 24, 2017 06:58:42 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> I haven't looked at T-Mobile's pages about the Z915 in months.
> Will report back if I find something.
> Are there other Z915 users here?

I don't use the Z915, but I assumed that, like many / most devices that are 
involved in distributing an Internet from an ISP, there would be usage 
counters built into the device accessible to the user (by some sort of login 
procedure).  Sure enough, see this page--it at least confirms the data is 
there--you may have to refer to other pages to find the login procedure / 
default passwords and such:

Data usage: T-Mobile 4G LTE HotSpot Z915

https://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-29076

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#180455

On 24/04/17 22:58, Richard Owlett wrote:
> If there were user accessible registers with a running total of
> uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal
> granularity.

Is ifconfig available on a console during installation? The full version 
reports TX and RX data.

Kind regards,

-- 
Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz>
Director
Transient Software Limited <http://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

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#180461

On 04/24/2017 04:12 PM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:
> On 24/04/17 22:58, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> If there were user accessible registers with a running total of
>> uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal
>> granularity.
>
> Is ifconfig available on a console during installation?

I can not check at the moment.

> The full version reports TX and RX data.

The last line when using the -a option is just what I want.
Thank you.

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#180476 — BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On 04/25/2017 08:17 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/24/2017 04:12 PM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:
>> On 24/04/17 22:58, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> If there were user accessible registers with a running total of
>>> uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal
>>> granularity.
>>
>> Is ifconfig available on a console during installation?
>
> I can not check at the moment.

I attempted to check this morning using
   debian-stretch-DI-rc3-i386-netinst.iso

I did an install using expert mode, not selecting any GUI.
At several points during the install I did Alt-F2 to bring up a terminal 
to attempt running ifconfig.

"Command not found" was the uniform response.
I booted the new install and attempted as root to run ifconfig.
I again got "Command not found".
That seemed odd.

Having previously done an install using the same ISO and having selected 
the MATE desktop, I repeated the above with the same error.

I have no problem running ifconfig under Squeeze (8.6.0).

Is it "bug" or "operator error"?

>
>> The full version reports TX and RX data.
>
> The last line when using the -a option is just what I want.
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>

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#180477 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 07:17:11AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>On 04/25/2017 08:17 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>On 04/24/2017 04:12 PM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:
>>>On 24/04/17 22:58, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>>If there were user accessible registers with a running total of
>>>>uploaded/downloaded data since device power on would be almost ideal
>>>>granularity.
>>>
>>>Is ifconfig available on a console during installation?
>>
>>I can not check at the moment.
>
>I attempted to check this morning using
>  debian-stretch-DI-rc3-i386-netinst.iso
>
>I did an install using expert mode, not selecting any GUI.
>At several points during the install I did Alt-F2 to bring up a 
>terminal to attempt running ifconfig.
>
>"Command not found" was the uniform response.
>I booted the new install and attempted as root to run ifconfig.
>I again got "Command not found".
>That seemed odd.
>
>Having previously done an install using the same ISO and having 
>selected the MATE desktop, I repeated the above with the same error.
>
>I have no problem running ifconfig under Squeeze (8.6.0).
>
>Is it "bug" or "operator error"?

"ifconfig" was part of the "net-tools" package. Recently, though, this
has been deprecated in favour of the "iproute2" package. The main
difference is that "ifconfig", "route" and a few other tools are now
replaced by a single "ip" command. The interface to "ip", however, is
completely different.

For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".


-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#180480 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".

On stretch:

wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".

wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".

wooledg:~$ ip link help
[... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
     to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]

wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
    RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast   
    380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731    
    TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns 
    57971257   614586   0       0       0       0       

Aha!

(Sadly, this is my *typical* experience with the ip command -- trying
random things until one of them works, because the documentation
is impenetrable, and the syntax barely guessable, and certainly not
predictable.)

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#180481 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 08:35:44AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
>> For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".
>
>On stretch:
>
>wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
>Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>
>wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
>Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>
>wooledg:~$ ip link help
>[... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
>     to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]
>
>wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
>2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
>    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
>    RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast
>    380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731
>    TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns
>    57971257   614586   0       0       0       0
>
>Aha!

My bad. I actually only got as far as discovering "ip -s link" on my own
system. As I was typing up the email I remembered that Richard was after
statistics for a specific interface. I should have been more diligent in
working out the correct format.

>
>(Sadly, this is my *typical* experience with the ip command -- trying
>random things until one of them works, because the documentation
>is impenetrable, and the syntax barely guessable, and certainly not
>predictable.)

ip *could* do a lot better, it's true. As a monolithic tool, there's not
really much excuse for the different sub-tools to parse the commands
differently. As you say, "ip address" expects the device to be expressed
as "dev eth0", so why doesn't "ip link" handle it the same way? I don't
know.

-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#180482 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:50:15PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 08:35:44AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> >>For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".
> >
> >On stretch:
> >
> >wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
> >Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".
> >
> >wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
> >Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".
> >
> >wooledg:~$ ip link help
> >[... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
> >    to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]
> >
> >wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
> >2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
> >   link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
> >   RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast
> >   380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731
> >   TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns
> >   57971257   614586   0       0       0       0
> >
> >Aha!
> 
> My bad [...]

I'd say "ip's bad"

> ip *could* do a lot better [...]

That's why I end up (after re-trying ip for a short while) installing
net-tools. Every single time.

regards
- -- tomás
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#180488 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On 04/26/2017 07:50 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 08:35:44AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
>>> For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".
>>
>> On stretch:
>>
>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
>> Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>>
>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
>> Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>>
>> wooledg:~$ ip link help
>> [... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
>>     to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]
>>
>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
>> 2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast
>> state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
>>    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
>>    RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast
>>    380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731
>>    TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns
>>    57971257   614586   0       0       0       0
>>
>> Aha!
>
> My bad. I actually only got as far as discovering "ip -s link" on my own
> system. As I was typing up the email I remembered that Richard was after
> statistics for a specific interface. I should have been more diligent in
> working out the correct format.
>
>>
>> (Sadly, this is my *typical* experience with the ip command -- trying
>> random things until one of them works, because the documentation
>> is impenetrable, and the syntax barely guessable, and certainly not
>> predictable.)
>
> ip *could* do a lot better, it's true. As a monolithic tool, there's not
> really much excuse for the different sub-tools to parse the commands
> differently. As you say, "ip address" expects the device to be expressed
> as "dev eth0", so why doesn't "ip link" handle it the same way? I don't
> know.


I would go further saying iproute2 is non-functional due to being 
functionally un-documented.

https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip.8.en.html is useless.

Functional commands, for this thread's topic would be
   ip -s link
or
   ip -s link ls usb0

No hint of either in so-called man page.

I accidentally discovered it by following up links when doing DuckDuckGo 
search for "documentation iproute2" (w/o quotes).

I then did another netinst of testing. There is some subset of the "ip" 
command available after the network has been configured. The help is too 
abbreviated to be useful.

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#180490 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On Qua, 26 Abr 2017, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I would go further saying iproute2 is non-functional due to being  
> functionally un-documented.
>
> https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip.8.en.html is useless.
>
> Functional commands, for this thread's topic would be
>   ip -s link
> or
>   ip -s link ls usb0
>
> No hint of either in so-called man page.

There are man pages for each command, such as  
https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip-link.8.en.html .  
They're listed in the SEE ALSO section, but there could be a mention  
higher up in the text advising the user to consult the specific pages.

Also, typing 'man ip link' should work on the command line.


-- 
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br

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#180493 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote on 04/26/17 16:46:
> On Qua, 26 Abr 2017, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I would go further saying iproute2 is non-functional due to being functionally
>> un-documented.
>>
>> https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip.8.en.html is useless.
>>
>> Functional commands, for this thread's topic would be
>>   ip -s link
>> or
>>   ip -s link ls usb0
>>
>> No hint of either in so-called man page.
> 
> There are man pages for each command, such as
> https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip-link.8.en.html . They're listed
> in the SEE ALSO section, but there could be a mention higher up in the text
> advising the user to consult the specific pages.
> 
> Also, typing 'man ip link' should work on the command line.
> 

I'll second this. The ip command is nearly as complex as git. The CLI help
is also usefull, like

$ ip help

and then

$ ip addr help

In the end, may be, you're satisfied with the output of

$ ip -s -h addr s eth0

-- 
Regards,
jvp.

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#180491 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On Wednesday 26 April 2017 15:36:36 Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/26/2017 07:50 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 08:35:44AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> >>> For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".
> >>
> >> On stretch:
> >>
> >> wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
> >> Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".
> >>
> >> wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
> >> Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".
> >>
> >> wooledg:~$ ip link help
> >> [... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
> >>     to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]
> >>
> >> wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
> >> 2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast
> >> state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
> >>    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
> >>    RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast
> >>    380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731
> >>    TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns
> >>    57971257   614586   0       0       0       0
> >>
> >> Aha!
> >
> > My bad. I actually only got as far as discovering "ip -s link" on my own
> > system. As I was typing up the email I remembered that Richard was after
> > statistics for a specific interface. I should have been more diligent in
> > working out the correct format.
> >
> >> (Sadly, this is my *typical* experience with the ip command -- trying
> >> random things until one of them works, because the documentation
> >> is impenetrable, and the syntax barely guessable, and certainly not
> >> predictable.)
> >
> > ip *could* do a lot better, it's true. As a monolithic tool, there's not
> > really much excuse for the different sub-tools to parse the commands
> > differently. As you say, "ip address" expects the device to be expressed
> > as "dev eth0", so why doesn't "ip link" handle it the same way? I don't
> > know.
>
> I would go further saying iproute2 is non-functional due to being
> functionally un-documented.
>
> https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip.8.en.html is useless.
>
> Functional commands, for this thread's topic would be
>    ip -s link
> or
>    ip -s link ls usb0
>
> No hint of either in so-called man page.
>
> I accidentally discovered it by following up links when doing DuckDuckGo
> search for "documentation iproute2" (w/o quotes).
>
> I then did another netinst of testing. There is some subset of the "ip"
> command available after the network has been configured. The help is too
> abbreviated to be useful.

But did /sbin/ifconfig work?

Lisi

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#180500 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On 04/26/2017 10:02 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 April 2017 15:36:36 Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 04/26/2017 07:50 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 08:35:44AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 01:25:18PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
>>>>> For interface statistics from ip, try "ip -s link [interface]".
>>>>
>>>> On stretch:
>>>>
>>>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link eth0
>>>> Command "eth0" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>>>>
>>>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link dev eth0
>>>> Command "dev" is unknown, try "ip link help".
>>>>
>>>> wooledg:~$ ip link help
>>>> [... enormous BNF dump, entirely missing -s, or any reference whatsoever
>>>>     to the fact that you can stick options between "ip" and "link" ...]
>>>>
>>>> wooledg:~$ ip -s link show eth0
>>>> 2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast
>>>> state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
>>>>    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
>>>>    RX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped overrun mcast
>>>>    380719013  1442490  0       0       0       4731
>>>>    TX: bytes  packets  errors  dropped carrier collsns
>>>>    57971257   614586   0       0       0       0
>>>>
>>>> Aha!
>>>
>>> My bad. I actually only got as far as discovering "ip -s link" on my own
>>> system. As I was typing up the email I remembered that Richard was after
>>> statistics for a specific interface. I should have been more diligent in
>>> working out the correct format.
>>>
>>>> (Sadly, this is my *typical* experience with the ip command -- trying
>>>> random things until one of them works, because the documentation
>>>> is impenetrable, and the syntax barely guessable, and certainly not
>>>> predictable.)
>>>
>>> ip *could* do a lot better, it's true. As a monolithic tool, there's not
>>> really much excuse for the different sub-tools to parse the commands
>>> differently. As you say, "ip address" expects the device to be expressed
>>> as "dev eth0", so why doesn't "ip link" handle it the same way? I don't
>>> know.
>>
>> I would go further saying iproute2 is non-functional due to being
>> functionally un-documented.
>>
>> https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/iproute2/ip.8.en.html is useless.
>>
>> Functional commands, for this thread's topic would be
>>    ip -s link
>> or
>>    ip -s link ls usb0
>>
>> No hint of either in so-called man page.
>>
>> I accidentally discovered it by following up links when doing DuckDuckGo
>> search for "documentation iproute2" (w/o quotes).
>>
>> I then did another netinst of testing. There is some subset of the "ip"
>> command available after the network has been configured. The help is too
>> abbreviated to be useful.
>
> But did /sbin/ifconfig work?
>

<chuckle> Had no reason to try.
Whenever I come across a command that *SHOULD* work, but does not, the 
first diagnostic step is attempt to run the *IDENTICAL* command as root.
In the *MAJORITY* of cases that it runs demonstrates that someone at 
sometime decided to restrict some computer owners from using their own 
computer in a reasonable manner.

Remember Linux borrows heavily from an OS designed in another era for a 
another audience. I have yet to run across a case where any distinction 
should be made between "user richard" and "user root". I do not take 
that as necessary and sufficient conditions to abolish questionable 
conventions. They might be occasionally valuable.

In the age of laptops, tablets, and so-called "smart phones" I think the 
more relevant basic distinction would be between "physically local user" 
and "physically external user".

Haven't yet figured out what to propose that wouldn't "throw baby out 
with the bath water".

<previous was a free opinion piece ;>

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#180503 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 03:26:36PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> Whenever I come across a command that *SHOULD* work, but does not,
> the first diagnostic step is attempt to run the *IDENTICAL* command
> as root.

Now you know better: you were holding it wrong.

cheers
- -- t
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#180514 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]
UTC Time: April 26, 2017 8:26 PM
From: rowlett@cloud85.net

In the *MAJORITY* of cases that it runs demonstrates that someone at
sometime decided to restrict some computer owners from using their own
computer in a reasonable manner.

Are you saying debian is not designed for users but for sys-admins as owners?
I assume if you are a confident sys-adm and single user then you can run it as root and have no users or create a user with identical rights to root. But for debian and most linux/unix derivatives to have it plastered all over the place to rarely if ever use root, I assume and can think of reasons. If your significant other uses it and you get into a fight he/she might destroy your system, or your kid, or your neighbor who uses it as a server for his connection to the world.

Remember Linux borrows heavily from an OS designed in another era for a
another audience.

Can you explain what era and audience was this and how has it changed?

I have yet to run across a case where any distinction
should be made between "user richard" and "user root".

That is because those who run 6 servers and 300,000 users based on the same installation you had would have a stroke hearing something like this. Can you run a webmail server and administer it off of your system?
What it sounds like you are asking for is a Debian-workstation and a Debian-enterprise as separate systems in a way the 1st would never be able to be transformed into the 2nd.

I do not take
that as necessary and sufficient conditions to abolish questionable
conventions. They might be occasionally valuable.

In the age of laptops, tablets, and so-called "smart phones" I think the
more relevant basic distinction would be between "physically local user"
and "physically external user".

How about a coffee shop with dummy terminals all connected to a pc-server?
You would be the coffee-shop owner and use the pc as your workstation as well. The rest would be ?external? users?

Haven't yet figured out what to propose that wouldn't "throw baby out
with the bath water".

So you are wasting bandwidth without a proposal.
You want something to change but don't know what yet.

-freak

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#180588 — Re: BUG or OPERATOR error? - was [Re: Measuring aggregate internet useage?]

On Wed 26 Apr 2017 at 15:26:36 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/26/2017 10:02 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> >But did /sbin/ifconfig work?
> >
> 
> <chuckle> Had no reason to try.
> Whenever I come across a command that *SHOULD* work, but does not,
> the first diagnostic step is attempt to run the *IDENTICAL* command
> as root.
> In the *MAJORITY* of cases that it runs demonstrates that someone at
> sometime decided to restrict some computer owners from using their
> own computer in a reasonable manner.

Which merely begs the question. The meaning of "*should* work
as non-root" is defined by your workaround.

> Remember Linux borrows heavily from an OS designed in another era
> for a another audience. I have yet to run across a case where any
> distinction should be made between "user richard" and "user root". I
> do not take that as necessary and sufficient conditions to abolish
> questionable conventions. They might be occasionally valuable.

That's a nice explanation of why I wrote last year a sentence that
you didn't understand:

  The usefulness of many suggestions is limited, of course, by the OPs
  insistence that a horse and cart is driven through the unix security
  model merely because the OP never connects anything to the internet
  (which is insane).

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00903.html

I guess you were happier with DOS.

> In the age of laptops, tablets, and so-called "smart phones" I think
> the more relevant basic distinction would be between "physically
> local user" and "physically external user".

So how is anyone able to configure a computer for their naive family,
say, to use.

> Haven't yet figured out what to propose that wouldn't "throw baby
> out with the bath water".

The same answer, then, as I gave you for your proposed vague changes
to the man pages.

Cheers,
David.

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