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Groups > linux.debian.user > #172068 > unrolled thread

Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

Started byAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
First post2016-09-12 01:00 +0200
Last post2016-09-13 21:20 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 59 — 13 participants

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Contents

  Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-12 01:00 +0200
    Re: Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Dutch Ingraham <stoa@gmx.us> - 2016-09-12 01:20 +0200
    Re: Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-12 04:50 +0200
      Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-12 05:20 +0200
        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-12 12:50 +0200
        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-12 20:20 +0200
          Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-12 21:20 +0200
          Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 00:40 +0200
            Re: icedove: failed to connect server XXX@gmail.com "Neal P. Murphy" <neal.p.murphy@alum.wpi.edu> - 2016-09-13 01:10 +0200
            Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-13 15:00 +0200
              Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-13 16:50 +0200
                Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-13 19:10 +0200
                  Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-13 21:40 +0200
                    Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 22:10 +0200
                      Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-13 23:20 +0200
              Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-09-13 19:30 +0200
                Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 23:00 +0200
                  Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-14 03:00 +0200
                    Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-14 08:50 +0200
                      Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-14 11:10 +0200
                      Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-14 17:40 +0200
                        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 19:00 +0200
                        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-14 21:00 +0200
                          Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 21:10 +0200
                            Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-14 22:50 +0200
                          Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-14 23:20 +0200
                            Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 00:10 +0200
                              Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 01:40 +0200
                                Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 02:00 +0200
                                  Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 12:10 +0200
                                    Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 14:40 +0200
                                      Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 20:10 +0200
                                        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 23:50 +0200
                              Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-15 02:20 +0200
                            Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-15 02:10 +0200
                              Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-09-15 12:10 +0200
                                Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-15 12:50 +0200
                                  Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-09-15 13:00 +0200
                              Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 18:20 +0200
                                Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Tony Baldwin <tonybaldwin@gmx.com> - 2016-09-15 18:50 +0200
                              Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-15 19:50 +0200
                                Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to run...) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 20:00 +0200
                                  Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 20:30 +0200
                                    Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to run...) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 22:50 +0200
                                Re: internet connectivity from Comcast (was: How to get Jessie to  run...) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-09-15 20:10 +0200
                                Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-15 21:30 +0200
                                  Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Alan McConnell <alan@his.com> - 2016-09-16 03:10 +0200
                                    Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 03:40 +0200
                                    Re: internet connectivity from Comcast David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-16 04:40 +0200
                                      Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-09-16 11:10 +0200
                                    Re: internet connectivity from Comcast Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-16 05:00 +0200
                                    Re: Windows Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2016-09-16 10:40 +0200
                                      Re: Windows Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 13:10 +0200
                                      Re: Windows Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 13:40 +0200
                                        Re: Windows (really about cut&paste) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-16 16:20 +0200
                    Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 09:30 +0200
                    Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 09:30 +0200
          Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-13 22:00 +0200
        Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-09-13 21:20 +0200

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#172068 — Fwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

FromAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
Date2016-09-12 01:00 +0200
SubjectFwd: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
Message-ID<sglTb-3Dd-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
I tried to send this only to Brian, but he has set his system to
not accept messages to him.  So I have to send this to the whole
List.  Sorry.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "Alan McConnell" <alan@his.com>
To: "Brian" <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 3:38:06 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

This only to you, Brian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 2:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> 
> > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one point:
> > "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> > maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the
> 
> What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
>        <LOL>  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know it.

Deconstruction of this statement follows:
        Brian, you are in a bad temper.  Did you read the amended title of this
        and previous messages? "Problem solved".
 
        Suggestion: simply don't reply to any of my (perhaps) forthcoming questions
        and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both
        annoyance.

Best wishes,

Alan McConnell

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#172070

FromDutch Ingraham <stoa@gmx.us>
Date2016-09-12 01:20 +0200
Message-ID<sgmcx-3Yy-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172068
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 06:49:47PM -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>         Brian, you are in a bad temper.  Did you read the amended title of this
>         and previous messages? "Problem solved".
>  
>         Suggestion: simply don't reply to any of my (perhaps) forthcoming questions
>         and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both
>         annoyance.

Given your responses to someone who was, in any event, trying to help, cross me
off your list as well.  *PLONK*

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#172073

FromDavid Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date2016-09-12 04:50 +0200
Message-ID<sgptL-5TD-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172068
On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 18:49:47 (-0400), Alan McConnell wrote:
> From: "Brian" <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 2:51:50 PM
> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> 
> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> 
> > On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> > 
> > > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at one point:
> > > "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system".  Jeez!!  I hope some
> > > maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works hard to make sure that the
> > 
> > What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
> >        <LOL>  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know it.
> 
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>         Brian, you are in a bad temper.  Did you read the amended title of this
>         and previous messages? "Problem solved".
>  
>         Suggestion: simply don't reply to any of my (perhaps) forthcoming questions
>         and/or comments.  That will save both you and me time and spare us both
>         annoyance.

This is a summary of what I've gleaned from your posts:

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00296.html
 How do I boot the new jessie installation?

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00337.html
 I don't need [rescue mode].
 I played with the BIOS.
 I am busy installing stuff.
 How do I do it? [sic]

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00364.html
 Do I want to install a different grub?
 I'd like a response from one of them(if they exist here) letting me
 know how [a dual boot system] works.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html
 What works for me now is the following: [and your solution]
 I shudder to think of someone taking my advice [etc]
 Jeez!!  I hope some maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works
 hard to make sure that the operation of installing a second OS(Linux)
 on a Windoze box is as easy and error-proof as it is possible to make it.

 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00408.html
 Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do this I'd
 have to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze,
 reboot to Jessie, copy the output you are requesting to a piece of
 paper, and then get back here.(*)
 May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you are,
 I'd be happy to work with you.


Now, I'm happy that you have what you consider is a working solution.
I don't know what you see when you press F12, and I don't understand
what the "L or M" business is in times past.

I can't find any description of what your actual problem is, with
some symptoms, other than that the computer doesn't do what you want
it to do, in some way that's unspecified.

I don't think that the maintainers of grub or the Debian installer
will be interested in this, beyond asking you to read the Debian
installation guide and the grub documentation (a long web page).
You need to report more specifically where what you read diverges
from what happens with your computer, including objective descriptions
of the problem rather than vague complaints.

People here will try to help you, but they can't divine what's
happening on your machine in the absence of facts. If there's really
a bug, then you may get help on how to either fix it, or report it
in such a way that the busy maintainers can isolate and act upon it.

Re your last post quoted above, what's the problem with running jessie
and reporting the information you were asked for? I assume that you
installed jessie so that you could run it occasionally.
I know some people on this list treat it like the telephone ("I'm
going to bed now, and will try it in the morning" kind of thing) but
the list will wait for the next occasion that you boot up your jessie.
In fact, it often pays *not* to give quick responses because it gives
you time to think on the problem, and you *are* the best-placed
person to come up with a solution (as you have done, in a way).

Cheers,
David.

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#172074

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2016-09-12 05:20 +0200
Message-ID<sgpWO-6ix-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172073
David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...
>> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#172080

FromBrian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Date2016-09-12 12:50 +0200
Message-ID<sgwYh-268-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172074
On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >>Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who
> provided useful help?
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html

The "solution" is very suboptimal in the context of Debian and GRUB and
does not help anyone having the same problem, particularily if a bug is
involved.

(I do not know where you get the 12 hours from. bendel.debian.org sent
the mail to me at 15:14:19 +0000 (UTC). My reply arrived at bendel by
18:32:58 +0000 (UTC) on the same day. I also hadn't appreciated that
this list had a time limit set on replies sent to it).

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#172090

FromAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
Date2016-09-12 20:20 +0200
Message-ID<sgDZM-6Vq-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172074

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...
>> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?
          <LOL>  Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

          I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything impolite?  I'm not
          conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

          As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to either my Windoze
          or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist in thinking 
          that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope
          that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect another OS during
          the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good notice/question up on a
          beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow keys) to indicate
          which OS they wish to boot.

          To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or uncooperative or both clearly
          have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I write.  I hope they
          will take advantage of this option.

Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy files to and from my
Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, which is the partition
containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there some subtle   mount
command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even suggestions.

Best wishes to all,

Alan McConnell

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#172092

FromBrian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Date2016-09-12 21:20 +0200
Message-ID<sgEVP-7xR-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172090
On Mon 12 Sep 2016 at 14:14:53 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
> useful help?
>           <LOL>  Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

You are both on the same page, then. Keep together and ward off the
people who ask questions or request information. It will give you a
cosier world.
 
>           I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything impolite?  I'm not
>           conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for
>           "hijacking a thread"?

Was anyone at all impolite?

>           As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to either my Windoze
>           or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist in thinking 
>           that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope

You are quite correct - the procedure is cumbersome. In fact, it is
naff. But you have it as a "solution" and are happy with it and do not
want to alter it. Who are we to argue and try to seek a technical
solution?

>           that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect another OS during
>           the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good notice/question up on a
>           beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow keys) to indicate
>           which OS they wish to boot.

We are working on it. Debian Central has realised that there are holes
in its installation for some users with names beginning with "Alan". A
fix will be sent out when we have dealt with Abarrane.

Meanwhile, follow the advice on -user. You seem to have ignored most of
it.
>           To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or uncooperative or both clearly
>           have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I write.  I hope they
>           will take advantage of this option.
> 
> Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy files to and from my
> Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, which is the partition
> containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there some subtle   mount
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even suggestions.

Follow-on questions go in different threads. It keeps things tidy and
manageable. Please start a new one on this topic.

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#172100

FromLisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com>
Date2016-09-13 00:40 +0200
Message-ID<sgI3o-1jG-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172090
On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.

Lisi.

PS I have been trying to help mudongliang, unsuccessfully.  But thereby hangs 
another thread.  Please someone else, his question has still not been 
answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 
existence??

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#172101 — Re: icedove: failed to connect server XXX@gmail.com

From"Neal P. Murphy" <neal.p.murphy@alum.wpi.edu>
Date2016-09-13 01:10 +0200
SubjectRe: icedove: failed to connect server XXX@gmail.com
Message-ID<sgIwq-1K1-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172100
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:38:56 +0100
Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

> PS I have been trying to help mudongliang, unsuccessfully.  But thereby hangs 
> another thread.  Please someone else, his question has still not been 
> answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 
> existence??
> 

[I trust this will appear in the desired thread; I changed the subject back....]

A few things I can think of (which generally reflect your suggestions):
  - username changed in settings or at gmail
  - password changed in settings or at gmail
  - port changed in settings or at gmail (between encrypted and non-encrypted, for example)
  - DNS problems
  - SSL versus startTLS
  - change between IMAP and POP3
  - firewall blockage (but not *too* likely, since other servers can be accessed)
  - encryption schemes that are no longer valid (like SSL2 or SSL3 but, again, not *too* likely*)

N


P.S. Related to another thread (about email programs), another shortcoming of Claws Mail is that there's no way to see/edit *all* a reply's headers; otherwise, I would've adjusted this message's Message-id header to match that of the O.P.'s message and make this reply appear in the right place in the thread. I don't have the original message to reply to.

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#172123

FromAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
Date2016-09-13 15:00 +0200
Message-ID<sgVtE-24i-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172100
Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
various insinuations that have been made.  

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisi Reisz" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:38:56 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.
      You have got to be kidding!  I have stolen(the meaning of "hijacking")
      nothing.  Nothing prevents you or anyone else from ignoring what I write or
      have written and concentrating on the other messages in this thread.

      You talk about etiquette.  I have, over the past twenty years, set up
      at least three E-lists; one about Linux(lwob), one about music(vlaviworld)
      and the third about politics(waifllc, using Meetup).  I never prescribed
      any form of behavior for my members, and I'm surprised that you take it on
      yourself to do so for debian-users.

      Besides: since I added "Problem solved" to the Subject line, I am now posting
      under a different thread.  However, you or anyone else are free to use it for
      further lessons in etiquette, or anything else you choose.<g>
      

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.
       He was doing no such thing.  He asked a bunch of questions like "What was the
       version of Windoze I was using?" ! ? ! He offered no solution at all that improved
       on what I use.  I'll get to Brian more in a moment.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.
       I _have_ helped myself!  And I am fortunate that I have been able to draw the
       attention of a real expert, Felix Miata, who combines his expertize with an
       ability to read, and a reluctance to preach.  Would that you and Brian would
       emulate him.

On to Brian!  You, Brian, ask: was anyone impolite?  I was accused of being impolite and
I reject the accusation.  I will, however, remark that your series of "deconstructions"
verge on the smarmy.  Do you claim that they were useful, or even relevant?

And what am I, or anyone, to think of your assertions about "Debian Central" or "Abarrane"?
Is it your claim that such comments are useful, or relevant, or even polite?

Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian installation SW
will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a proper and
simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to dual-bootable
systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine self-test.

Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or smarm.
Please help me to keep it!

Best wishes, even to Lisi and Brian!

Alan

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#172126

FromBrian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Date2016-09-13 16:50 +0200
Message-ID<sgXc6-3cQ-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172123
On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.

[...Snippety-snip...]

> Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian installation SW
> will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a proper and
> simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to dual-bootable
> systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine self-test.

You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.

If you had clue and had provided a decent, useful response you would
then have been directed to read /usr/lib/os-probes/mounted/20microsoft.
The light would then have dawned (perhaps). All the time you would be
learning and helping yourself. But no - whinging wins out. Far easier
for you to that than think for yourself.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:

  * Add support for Windows 10 (otherwise reported as Windows Recovery
    Environment). Thanks, Philipp Wolfer! (Closes: #801278).

 -- Cyril Brulebois <kibi@debian.org>  Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:26:16 +0200

With this information your every desire can be realised. Your problem
now has a proper solution. Surely what you can do to have a dual boot
doesn't need spelling out?

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.

-- 
Brian.

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#172131

FromAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
Date2016-09-13 19:10 +0200
Message-ID<sgZnz-4O6-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172126

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:40:11 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.
         Excellent.


You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.
         Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:
         getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
         shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
         turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
         a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
         transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
         a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
         for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.
         I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
         didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.
         Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
         program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
         installer is broken.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:
         Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
         know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
         for stretch may be an improvement.

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
         <LOL>  I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
         more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
         exists<g>.

A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the English
for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't recall
ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Alan

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#172138

FromBrian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Date2016-09-13 21:40 +0200
Message-ID<sh1IJ-6cg-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172131
On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 13:01:58 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
> route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
> desired.
>          Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:

I imagine your question is rhetorical, so it has no real edge to it and
does not require me to give an impression of an affronted user. The
repetition is unnecessary as it simply confirms you went into "sod this
for a game of soldiers" mode and started digging a deeper hole for
yourself.

>          getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
>          shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
>          turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
>          a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
>          transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
>          a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
>          for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.
> 
> The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
> are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
> keeping what it says to yourself.
>          I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
>          didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.

Even saying that would have given us a hook to hang a response on. Not
giving a precis alongside your other output was a bad move because it
altered the focus. Verbatim output is always best but a summary is
better than nothing.

   Verbatim output       =10/10
   Verbatim output+whine =7/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Summary               =6/10 (There is some value in it)
   Summary+whine         =3/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Whine only            =0/10

>          Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
>          program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
>          installer is broken.

Broken? Mmm. Windows 10 was released on 29th July 2015. The Jessie
installer was released on 25th April 2015; there are indeed updates to
it but only for important features like security.

"Ah", you will say, what about d-i's DivineTheFuture package? Well, it
failed abysmally, although some Debian developers made a fortune from
betting on the Grand National using its predictions. (Warning: Fantasy
module switched on full).

> You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
> wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
> unstable:
>          Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
>          know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
>          for stretch may be an improvement.

You've completely missed the point. Try saying to yourself

  I wish my machine had a file like unstable's or testing's

and then figure out how it could have such a file. (The os-prober output
would tell you whether what you did worked). This is the central section
in this mail. If you reply to anything you should reply to this.

> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or smarm.
> > Please help me to keep it!
> 
> I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
> weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
>          <LOL>  I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
>          more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
>          exists<g>.

It doesn't seem possible. Every time I make an attempt I hear a melody
and a voice singing "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer....."

> A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the English
> for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't recall
> ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

-- 
Brian.

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#172140

FromLisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com>
Date2016-09-13 22:10 +0200
Message-ID<sh2bL-6Dm-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172138
On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > College back in 1967-68.
>
> Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a women's 
college) in 1967 ....  (There were - just.)

Lisi

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#172145

FromDavid Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date2016-09-13 23:20 +0200
Message-ID<sh3hv-7k8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172140
On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 21:02:01 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> > >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > > College back in 1967-68.
> >
> > Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.
> 
> I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a women's 
> college) in 1967 ....  (There were - just.)

I don't think either of the constituents of RubberNeck disallowed
men on the *staff*. (I also didn't realise they dropped the Neck out
of their name, although Royal Holloway and Bedford New College remains
their legal name.)

Cheers,
David.

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#172132

FromGene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2016-09-13 19:30 +0200
Message-ID<sgZGW-4VC-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172123
On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> against various insinuations that have been made.
>
Now I am going to push back Alan.

If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that, 
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent

(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46 
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than 
to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading > 
and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has 
existed since the late 80's of the last century.

> ----- Original Message -----
Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my 
email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it 
marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written 
by an idiot.

Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#172144

FromLisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com>
Date2016-09-13 23:00 +0200
Message-ID<sh2Ya-6XB-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172132
On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludged
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludge#English  (See meaning 3)

Lisi

> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my
> email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it
> marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written
> by an idiot.
>
> Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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#172156

FromAlan McConnell <alan@his.com>
Date2016-09-14 03:00 +0200
Message-ID<sh6Ip-17K-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172144

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisi Reisz" <lisi.reisz@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:58:01 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client
       Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for years
       to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it when
       when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize for
       Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.
       Sorry, I do know what 'solved' means, and I do say that _my_ problem is
       solved.  But my solution, as I've said over and over again, is not one that
       I can give to people who are running a dual boot system at my urging.



> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
       Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.  When I get Jessie running properly on
       my new Dell I'll have my emacs put in quotes as they should be.  But I don't
       know how to do it on Zimbra, which, I'll repeat, is a foul piece of SW.  For
       now I'm indenting my replies.  I hope all your mail readers respect my
       indentations; I have a suspicion that some of them don't.

       Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time there.  But
       there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which subject has,
       most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.  This is beginning
       to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting women and departments
       supporting women.

       More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe someone
       can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that there
       is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 10 to
       behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

Best wishes,

Alan

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#172157

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2016-09-14 08:50 +0200
Message-ID<shcb7-5My-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172156
Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):

> Lisi Reisz composed:

>> Gene Heskett wrote:

>>> Now I am going to push back Alan.

>>> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
>>> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent

>>> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
>>> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)
...
>> https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client
...
> Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for years
> to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it when
> when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize for
> Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.

...
> But maybe someone
> can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that there
> is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 10 to
> behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie, then 
came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for those 
who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.

Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and 
not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows 
10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all my 
computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming that 
troubled you might be avoided in such manner.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#172162

FromBrian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
Date2016-09-14 11:10 +0200
Message-ID<shemB-7pO-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#172157
On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 02:44:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):
> ...
> >But maybe someone
> >can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that there
> >is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 10 to
> >behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
> 
> As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie,
> then came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for
> those who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

I might have come to an invalid conclusion from reading the changelog
snippet quoted earlier and then went to lay far too much emphasis on
Jessie d-i preceding Windows 10. What is fixed is not whether an entry
for Windows 10 is displayed but the wording of the entry in the GRUB
menu.

Apologies for anything misleading.
 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it,
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling
> boot sector code.

Yes it does appear curious, especially as the implication in the
changelog (and a few reports I've seen elsewhere) is that a Windows 10
install can be discovered by os-prober but provides "Windows Recovery
Partition" as GRUB's menu entry.

> Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network
> installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and
> not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows
> 10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all
> my computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming
> that troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

os-prober from stretch/unstable should install on Jessie with 'dpkg -i'
but I am much less confident it would fix a missing entry, even though
it should do no harm to try.

Another possibilty is

  https://wiki.debian.org/DualBoot/Windows10

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