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[OT]: May Day

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  [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 20:50 +0200
    Re: [OT]: May Day Hans Vogelsberger <li.vog@schwaz.net> - 2016-05-01 14:40 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@googlemail.com> - 2016-05-01 15:10 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 15:30 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2016-05-01 18:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 19:10 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 19:20 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 19:50 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 20:00 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 01:30 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:30 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Glenn Holmer <cenbe@kolabnow.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:30 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 20:10 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-01 20:20 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 21:40 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 22:00 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 23:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-02 00:00 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> - 2016-05-01 20:30 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-02 18:10 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 20:20 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-02 21:10 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:10 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 19:40 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 19:50 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 20:40 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 22:00 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-02 20:30 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 22:00 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-03 01:00 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 14:40 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-03 15:10 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:30 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-03 20:40 +0200

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#167248 — [OT]: May Day

Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working (in 
FOSS industry and at all) people! )
Have a nice day!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167283

Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
schrieb Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com>:

> Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
> (in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
> Have a nice day!
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Dmitry Piyavkin
> 

Why workers only? There are other humans, too.

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#167290

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 1 May 2016 at 13:26, Hans Vogelsberger <li.vog@schwaz.net> wrote:

> Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
> schrieb Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com>:
>
> > Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
> > (in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
> > Have a nice day!
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Dmitry Piyavkin
> >
>
> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.
>

​What about activist investors?

MF​

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#167292

Hans Vogelsberger writes:
> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.

Class struggle.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#167303

* On 2016 01 May 08:23 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Hans Vogelsberger writes:
> > Why workers only? There are other humans, too.
> 
> Class struggle.

I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?

;-)

Happy May Day from the workers paradise of a muddy farm somewhere in
northern Kansas.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

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#167307

Nate writes:
> I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
> school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?

Sure.  As long as you collect no rents and own no capital you can be a
member of the proletariat.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#167308

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:05 AM, John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Nate writes:
>> I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
>> school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?
>
> Sure.  As long as you collect no rents and own no capital you can be a
> member of the proletariat.
> --
> John Hasler
> jhasler@newsguy.com
> Elmwood, WI USA
>

Don't want to get OT on OT, but shouldn't the converse be true instead?

That is, you're one with the workers if you or seriously aspire to work;
not having capital should not put you in the working class, and having
capital should not put you out.  (Most people have cars after all, or other
forms of working capital.)

Anyhow, hoping everybody has a good May day and a productive year writing
good free code.  (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
our ruling class wanted to tone down?)

dan

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#167311

On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)

I am speechless!!

"The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with the 
Floralia, festival of Flora, the Roman goddess of flowers, held on April 27 
during the Roman Republic era, and with the Walpurgis Night celebrations of 
the Germanic countries. It is also associated with the Gaelic Beltane, most 
commonly held on April 30. The day was a traditional summer holiday in many 
pre-Christian European pagan cultures. While February 1 was the first day of 
spring, May 1 was the first day of summer; hence, the summer solstice on June 
25 (now June 21) was Midsummer."  Etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day

USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything (except 
Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are younger 
nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older ones.

(I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the 
oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!)

Lisi

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#167312

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
>> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
>> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)
>
> I am speechless!!
>
> "The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with the
> Floralia, festival of Flora, the Roman goddess of flowers, held on April 27
> during the Roman Republic era, and with the Walpurgis Night celebrations of
> the Germanic countries. It is also associated with the Gaelic Beltane, most
> commonly held on April 30. The day was a traditional summer holiday in many
> pre-Christian European pagan cultures. While February 1 was the first day of
> spring, May 1 was the first day of summer; hence, the summer solstice on June
> 25 (now June 21) was Midsummer."  Etc.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day
>
> USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything (except
> Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are younger
> nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older ones.
>
> (I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the
> oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!)
>
> Lisi
>

hahahahaha, my bad for sure Lisi!!

I should have said "Labor Day" instead of "May Day", though.

Because in fact May 1 was chosen as the date for Labor Day (or International
Worker's Day) because of the murder of four striking workers May 4, 1887
in Chicago.

Natural spring didn't originate here, and of course the idea of the holiness
of labor was much earlier (when the Creator labored for 6 days and rested
on the seventh).

Thanks for pointing out my bug though!!

dan

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#167404

Hi, Dan,

I have come off list because I find all the politics of this very unpleasant.  
But I liked your response (inaccurate as it has turned out to be!!!) and felt 
that it deserved a reply.

On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:58:57 Dan Hitt wrote:
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
> >> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
> >> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)
> >
> > I am speechless!!
> >
> > "The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with
> > the Floralia, festival of Flora"  Etc.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day
> >
> >
> > Lisi
>
> hahahahaha, my bad for sure Lisi!!
>
> I should have said "Labor Day" instead of "May Day", though.
>
> Because in fact May 1 was chosen as the date for Labor Day (or
> International Worker's Day) because of the murder of four striking workers
> May 4, 1887 in Chicago.

Not according to Wikipedia.  Ah!  I see.  It is more complicated than that.  
You confused me by confusing Labor Day and International Workers Day.  See my 
trail below!!!  One even has to distinguish between Labor Day and Labour 
Day!!

So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International 
Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in 
sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder 
someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.

Lisi
-------------------------------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day

History[edit]
Beginning in the late 19th century, as the trade union and labor movements 
grew, different groups of trade unionists chose a variety of days on which to 
celebrate labor. In the United States and Canada, a September holiday, called 
Labor or Labour Day, was first proposed in the 1880s. In 1882, Matthew 
Maguire, a machinist, first proposed a Labor Day holiday while serving as 
secretary of the Central Labor Union (CLU) of New York.[2] Some maintain that 
Peter J. McGuire of the American Federation of Labor put forward the first 
proposal in May 1882,[1] after witnessing the annual labour festival held in 
Toronto, Canada.[3] In 1887 Oregon became the first state of the United 
States to make Labor Day an official public holiday. By the time it became an 
official federal holiday in 1894, thirty U.S. states officially celebrated 
Labor Day.[1] Thus by 1887 in North America, Labor Day was an established, 
official holiday.[4]

Following the deaths of workers at the hands of United States Army and United 
States Marshals Service during the Pullman Strike of 1894, the United States 
Congress unanimously voted to approve legislation to make Labor Day a 
national holiday and President Grover Cleveland signed it into law six days 
after the end of the strike.[5] Cleveland supported the creation of the 
national holiday in an attempt to shore up support among trade unions 
following the Pullman Strike.[6] 
******************************
The date of May 1 (an ancient European holiday known as May Day) was an 
alternative date, celebrated then (and now) as International Workers Day, but 
President Cleveland was concerned that observance of Labor Day on May 1 would 
encourage Haymarket-style protests and would strengthen socialist and 
anarchist movements that, though distinct from one another, had rallied to 
commemorate the Haymarket Affair in International Workers' Day.[6][7]
All U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and the United States territories 
have made Labor Day a statutory holiday.
************************************8

BUT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workers%27_Day
International Workers' Day, also known as Labour Day in some places, is a 
celebration of labourers and the working classes that is promoted by the 
international labour movement, socialists, communists and anarchists and 
occurs every year on May Day, 1 May, an European spring holiday since the 
late 19th and early 20th century.[1][2] The date was chosen for International 
Workers' Day by the Second International, a pan-national organization of 
socialist and communist political parties, to commemorate the Haymarket 
affair, which occurred in Chicago on 4 May 1886.[2]

 The 1904 International Socialist Conference in Amsterdam, the Sixth 
Conference of the Second International, called on "all Social Democratic 
Party organisations and trade unions of all countries to demonstrate 
energetically on the First of May for the legal establishment of the 8-hour 
day, for the class demands of the proletariat, and for universal peace."[3]
Being a traditional European spring celebration, May Day is a national public 
holiday in many countries, but in only some of those countries is it 
celebrated specifically as "Labour Day" or "International Workers' Day". Some 
countries celebrate a Labour Day on other dates significant to them, such as 
the United States, which celebrates Labor Day on the first Monday of 
September.

And then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Day



> Natural spring didn't originate here, and of course the idea of the
> holiness of labor was much earlier (when the Creator labored for 6 days and
> rested on the seventh).
>
> Thanks for pointing out my bug though!!
>
> dan

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#167428

On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> …
> So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
> Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
> sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
> someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.

Oh, my!..


I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that 
was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short, 
like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case 
someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not 
interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject 
: contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).

I've received 2 types of responses:
1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in 
private, because many are already too terrorized to express their 
opinion openly).
2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected 
here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to 
murder (by best wishes, I guess).

What's wrong with you, guys?


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167429

Piyavkin writes:
> What's wrong with you, guys?

Divisive associations.  "Solidarity", for example, is almost always
directed against some group of perceived enemies.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#167431

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 14:22:26 Piyavkin wrote:
> On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > …
> > So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
> > Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
> > sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
> > someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.
>
> Oh, my!..
>
>
> I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that
> was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short,
> like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case
> someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not
> interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject
>
> : contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).
>
> I've received 2 types of responses:
> 1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in
> private, because many are already too terrorized to express their
> opinion openly).
> 2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected
> here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to
> murder (by best wishes, I guess).
>
> What's wrong with you, guys?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Dmitry Piyavkin

That was sent off-list and should not have been quoted here.  Presumably Dan 
forwarded it to you.

Solidarity?  With whom?  Oh, yes, The Workers.

Read the history of the French Revolution.  Or the Stalinist purges.  

Politics does not belong here, but nor do ad hominem attacks.

Lisi

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#167432

On 05/03/2016 08:34 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> Politics does not belong here

+1

Enough already.

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

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#167439

On 03.05.2016 16:34, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 May 2016 14:22:26 Piyavkin wrote:
>> On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>>> …
>>> So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
>>> Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
>>> sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
>>> someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.
>> Oh, my!..
>>
>>
>> I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that
>> was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short,
>> like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case
>> someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not
>> interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject
>>
>> : contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).
>>
>> I've received 2 types of responses:
>> 1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in
>> private, because many are already too terrorized to express their
>> opinion openly).
>> 2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected
>> here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to
>> murder (by best wishes, I guess).
>>
>> What's wrong with you, guys?
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Dmitry Piyavkin
> That was sent off-list and should not have been quoted here.  Presumably Dan
> forwarded it to you.

No, the letter have came from list:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/05/msg00138.html

> Solidarity?  With whom?  Oh, yes, The Workers.

I've explicitly explained with whom. Twice. It was utterly innocent and 
unoffending. And I'm amazed how you guys found pretext to turn that 
small topic into a flame.

So, working people are now kind of terrorists, huh?

> Read the history of the French Revolution.  Or the Stalinist purges.

Lisi, do it yourself, please. French Revolution was bourgeois one. So 
capitalists should pay the bill, I guess.

And what kind of logic is it? So, if colonial Europe had performed all 
those uncountable atrocities all over the world and gave birth to 
Fascism we now should treat Europeans as spawns of evil?

>
> Politics does not belong here,

Yeah, but you do it regularly. Discussing, by example, politcorrect 
forms of addressing audience with proper gender connotations.
I personally have nothing against it or against other touch of OT 
subjects (like movies, personal stories, etc.). There is no human 
interaction without human part in it. The FOSS as itself has significant 
political dimension. Why we shouldn't discuss it?

So, I guess the problem is not in the politics as itself. The problem is 
in intolerance to other's opinion and desire to silence it under any 
ostensible pretexts (politics as a dirty and unmentionable subject). 
Mainstream propaganda encourage the sectarian attitude to neutralize p2p 
communications while they have full control over mass media. So the 
people which opinion differs from PoV of Ministry of Truth should be 
isolated, marginalized, express their views only somewhere in closed 
underground communities and publicly be in shame as some perverts, as if 
that are them who's starting wars, keeping their hands deep in other's 
pockets, buying elections and parliaments, lobbying laws, polluting 
lands, financing military contractors whose hostile actions devastate 
whole regions with results in hundreds of thousands dead and in millions 
displaced as refugees (and doing so they are even pointing fingers at 
century old Stalin, bah!), etc.

The thread was auto-extinguishing by its nature and explicitly marked as 
off-topic. You might easily ignore it if you don't share the opinion, 
you might easily filter it in your mail client. And it would be finished 
in 2 days with a few replies and then be silently removed as outdated 
OT. No, you've found funny linguistic excuses for phony accusations, 
blown the flame about nothing, just to cry in the end «Enough already!» 
Why? Because you fear that other people are… well… not so smart and 
sharp as you are, they may fall for treacherous speeches of some 
tempting snake, and should be protected at any cost. Constant vigilance! 
We're on a mission.

Please, give the people to decide by themselves. People are not stupid. 
If subject rise no interest, it will be ignored,  will die by itself, 
and never be repeated again.


[!] Here I stop and quit all the Nazi, Stalin, innovative politic 
linguistics and all the crap, which I didn't intend to mention at all. 
Please, start your own thread for that. Or follow your own advice and 
stop the insinuations.

> but nor do ad hominem attacks.
>

What attacks? Whom attacking whom? If you feel that I'm attacking you 
(but not your actions), I sincerely apologise and will never do that again.

What you, guys, are even doing in the thread if you believe that wishing 
best each other and expressing solidarity with fellow people means 
divisiveness, call to a murder, and all the horrible things you called 
it? It's ridiculous.



Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167313

Lisi writes:
> USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything
> (except Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are
> younger nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older
> ones.

For certain definitions of "nation".

> I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the 
> oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!

Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#167315

Hi,

Lisi Resiz wrote:
> > oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!

John Hasler wrote:
> Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.

Within europe, i bet on San Marino and Iceland.

(Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of
 the last few hundred years.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#167322

On Sunday 01 May 2016 19:14:59 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!
>
> John Hasler wrote:
> > Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.
>
> Within europe, i bet on San Marino and Iceland.

San Marino wins by a long chalk!  I forgot about it as a separate state.  The 
Isle of Mann can rival Iceland (beats it if you accept its records.)
>
> (Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of
>  the last few hundred years.)

Yes, I over-simplified and left Sweden out.

Lisi

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#167324

Lisi Resiz wrote:
> oldest continuous democratic government!!!!!

John Hasler wrote:
> Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.

> Within europe, i bet on San Marino...

If you ignore the PFS period.

> ...and Iceland.

If you ignore being owned by Denmark (and the fact that it is not within
Europe).

> Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of the last
> few hundred years.

Finland was the first nation to grant full poltical rights to all women
and to all races.  It can be argued that no nation in which women cannot
vote is a democracy.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#167332

Lisi writes:
> But New Zealand and the Isle of Man (sorry, I have been spelling it
> wrongly) both antedate Finland in granting full suffrage, and New
> Zealand's was unrestricted - but of course it was not independent.  So
> we either have to allow both Finland and New Zealand, when New Zealand
> wins, or disallow both, on the grounds that they were not independent.

Besides, if you allow them despite not being fully sovereign you have to
allow Wyoming, which beats them both.

Also, Finland became an independent nation with full suffrage before New
Zealand did.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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