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Re: no response from listmaster

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  Re: no response from listmaster Steve Kleene <skdeb@syrano.acb.uc.edu> - 2015-12-14 03:50 +0100
    Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 04:50 +0100
    Re: no response from listmaster Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2015-12-14 05:00 +0100
      Re: no response from listmaster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-12-14 10:40 +0100
        Re: no response from listmaster Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2015-12-14 15:10 +0100
          Re: no response from listmaster tomas@tuxteam.de - 2015-12-14 15:30 +0100
            Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 16:10 +0100
              Re: no response from listmaster Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 16:30 +0100
              Re: no response from listmaster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-12-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 12:10 +0100
                  Re: no response from listmaster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-12-15 12:30 +0100
                    Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 12:40 +0100
                    Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 12:40 +0100
                      Re: no response from listmaster German <gentgerman@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 12:50 +0100
                Re: no response from listmaster John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-15 15:10 +0100
      Re: no response from listmaster Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2015-12-14 15:30 +0100
        Re: no response from listmaster Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2015-12-14 15:50 +0100
          Re: no response from listmaster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-12-15 09:00 +0100
            Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 12:10 +0100
              Re: no response from listmaster Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2015-12-15 17:50 +0100
                Re: no response from listmaster Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-12-15 20:40 +0100
                  Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 00:20 +0100
                    Re: no response from listmaster Lee Fuller <me@leefuller.io> - 2015-12-23 20:10 +0100
                      Re: no response from listmaster Steve Kleene <skdeb@syrano.acb.uc.edu> - 2015-12-23 21:50 +0100
                        Re: no response from listmaster Lee <me@leefuller.io> - 2015-12-23 22:10 +0100
                        Re: no response from listmaster Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2015-12-24 02:30 +0100
                  Re: no response from listmaster Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 00:20 +0100
          Re: no response from listmaster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2015-12-15 10:20 +0100
    Re: no response from listmaster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-12-14 11:10 +0100
      Re: no response from listmaster Lee Fuller <leefuller23@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 15:10 +0100
        Re: no response from listmaster Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2015-12-14 15:40 +0100
          Re: no response from listmaster Lee Fuller <leefuller23@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 17:50 +0100
    Re: no response from listmaster [SOLVED] Steve Kleene <skdeb@syrano.acb.uc.edu> - 2015-12-14 16:30 +0100

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#161735 — Re: no response from listmaster

On 2015-12-13 20:01:35 GMT, Brian <ad44 <at> cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun 13 Dec 2015 at 18:57:31 +0000, Steve Kleene wrote:
>
> > > On Sunday 13 December 2015 17:18:32 Steve Kleene wrote:
> > > > My address (skdeb <at> syrano.acb.uc.edu) has been unsubscribed from the
> > > > debian-user mailing list.  I understand why.  I took the address
down for a
> > > > few days for reasons that are now irrelevant (but can be related if
anyone
> > > > cares).  Because mails from lists.debian.org were bouncing, they
> > > > unsubscribed me.  A note from listmaster <at> lists.debian.org on
Dec 8 notified
> > > > me of this and said, "You are welcome to contact us".  I wrote to that
> > > > address twice (Dec 8 and 9).  The mails were not returned to me; I have
> > > > received no response; and I'm still unsubscribed.
> > > >
> > > > Do any of you know of another administrator or ombudsman who might
actually
> > > > respond?  Thanks.
> >
> > On Sun Dec 13 12:29:31 2015, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz <at> gmail.com> replied:
> >
> > > Why not just resubscribe - much simpler.
> >
> > Thanks, but that's a whole can of worms I had hoped (in vain) not to reopen.
> > Last month I did a thread ("problem e-mailing debian groups") on that
and was
> > unable to find a solution.  My e-mails to debian-user <at>
lists.debian.org and
> > debian-admin <at> lists.debian.org DO bounce, apparently because my employer
> > mishandles sender callback verification.  (Having said that, I don't
> > understand why no one but lists.debian.org bounces my e-mails.)  My employer
> > only wants to support Microsoft Outlook or Exchange and wishes I didn't
run a
> > mail server at all.  So I'm on my own.
>
> Would you please be clearer here as to your setup.
>
> You are running a mail server anad are using it to send mail.
>
> Does this mail
>
> a) go through one of your employer's mail servers
>
> or
>
> b) do you send mails directly ?

I am running mailto/sendmail from the command line, configured locally by
/etc/sendmail/sendmail.cf.  This file includes:

  DSsmtp.uc.edu

This sets my employer's server smtp.uc.edu as SMART_HOST.  I did not route
through that server until 2006.  At that point an organization across the
street began refusing emails because my IP was seen as dynamic.  I had to
route through smtp.uc.edu to get around that.  I haven't tried lately to go
back to the pre-2006 system.  I do have one machine with a fixed IP.  On my
desk machine I masquerade to the fixed IP, but apparently e-mails from the
desk machine were detected as dynamic IP before the header was even checked.

Thanks for the reply.

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#161736

On Monday 14 December 2015 02:46:43 Steve Kleene wrote:
> On 2015-12-13 20:01:35 GMT, Brian <ad44 <at> cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sun 13 Dec 2015 at 18:57:31 +0000, Steve Kleene wrote:
> > > > On Sunday 13 December 2015 17:18:32 Steve Kleene wrote:
> > > > > My address (skdeb <at> syrano.acb.uc.edu) has been unsubscribed
> > > > > from the debian-user mailing list.  I understand why.  I took the
> > > > > address
>
> down for a
>
> > > > > few days for reasons that are now irrelevant (but can be related if
>
> anyone
>
> > > > > cares).  Because mails from lists.debian.org were bouncing, they
> > > > > unsubscribed me.  A note from listmaster <at> lists.debian.org on
>
> Dec 8 notified
>
> > > > > me of this and said, "You are welcome to contact us".  I wrote to
> > > > > that address twice (Dec 8 and 9).  The mails were not returned to
> > > > > me; I have received no response; and I'm still unsubscribed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do any of you know of another administrator or ombudsman who might
>
> actually
>
> > > > > respond?  Thanks.
> > >
> > > On Sun Dec 13 12:29:31 2015, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz <at> gmail.com> 
replied:
> > > > Why not just resubscribe - much simpler.
> > >
> > > Thanks, but that's a whole can of worms I had hoped (in vain) not to
> > > reopen. Last month I did a thread ("problem e-mailing debian groups")
> > > on that
>
> and was
>
> > > unable to find a solution.  My e-mails to debian-user <at>
>
> lists.debian.org and
>
> > > debian-admin <at> lists.debian.org DO bounce, apparently because my
> > > employer mishandles sender callback verification.  (Having said that, I
> > > don't understand why no one but lists.debian.org bounces my e-mails.) 
> > > My employer only wants to support Microsoft Outlook or Exchange and
> > > wishes I didn't
>
> run a
>
> > > mail server at all.  So I'm on my own.
> >
> > Would you please be clearer here as to your setup.
> >
> > You are running a mail server anad are using it to send mail.
> >
> > Does this mail
> >
> > a) go through one of your employer's mail servers
> >
> > or
> >
> > b) do you send mails directly ?
>
> I am running mailto/sendmail from the command line, configured locally by
> /etc/sendmail/sendmail.cf.  This file includes:
>
>   DSsmtp.uc.edu
>
> This sets my employer's server smtp.uc.edu as SMART_HOST.  I did not route
> through that server until 2006.  At that point an organization across the
> street began refusing emails because my IP was seen as dynamic.  I had to
> route through smtp.uc.edu to get around that.  I haven't tried lately to go
> back to the pre-2006 system.  I do have one machine with a fixed IP.  On my
> desk machine I masquerade to the fixed IP, but apparently e-mails from the
> desk machine were detected as dynamic IP before the header was even
> checked.
>
> Thanks for the reply.

Could you route through another SMTP server just for the list, or just to 
subscribe to the list?  Does all your mail have to go through the same SMTP 
server always?  I ask because I use a different one if this one causes 
problems, as it occasionally does.

Lisi

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#161737

Dear Dr. Kleene,

Surely your neuroscience teaching, and other professional 
duties, at UC and elsewhere keep you sufficiently busy so that 
you shouldn't really have to pester Debian volunteers trying to 
keep the massive Debian mailing lists system up and running. You 
have what appears to be a perfectly serviceable uc.edu personal 
email account. I understand how attached you must be to syrano, 
your personal linux server, but please try to get and keep some 
perspective on all this. You are having difficulties of a 
strictly personal nature that in now way merit the time of 
Debian listadmins.

-- 
Bob Bernstein

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#161743

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On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:57:54PM -0500, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> Dear Dr. Kleene,
> 
> Surely your neuroscience teaching, and other professional duties, at
> UC and elsewhere [...]

Woah. Calm down a bit. 

regards
- -- tomás
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#161755

On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Woah. Calm down a bit.

That made you uncomfortable a little bit Tomas, huh? Please try 
to deal with it before issuing instructions to me. I'm not here 
for your comfort, iydm.

-- 
Bob Bernstein

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#161758

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On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 09:07:50AM -0500, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> >Woah. Calm down a bit.
> 
> That made you uncomfortable a little bit Tomas, huh?

Most definitely, yes.

>                                                       Please try to
> deal with it before issuing instructions to me.

No idea how you could take as "instruction" what only could be meant
as a "proposal", but there you go...

>                                                 I'm not here for
> your comfort, iydm.

What a coincidence.

cheers
- -- tomás
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#161761

On Monday 14 December 2015 13:54:09 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > >Woah. Calm down a bit.
> >
> > That made you uncomfortable a little bit Tomas, huh?
>
> Most definitely, yes.
>
> >                                                       Please try to
> > deal with it before issuing instructions to me.
>
> No idea how you could take as "instruction" what only could be meant
> as a "proposal", but there you go...

It was in the imperative.

"imperative ‎(countable and uncountable, plural imperatives)
(uncountable, grammar) The grammatical mood expressing an order "

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/imperative

Instruction=Order??  I think so.

Lisi

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#161764

On 12/14/2015 10:06 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 14 December 2015 13:54:09 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

>> No idea how you could take as "instruction" what only could be meant
>> as a "proposal", but there you go...
>
> It was in the imperative.
>
> "imperative ‎(countable and uncountable, plural imperatives)
> (uncountable, grammar) The grammatical mood expressing an order "
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/imperative
>
> Instruction=Order??  I think so.

Keep in mind that when geeks find broken, they rush in to "issue" a fix. 
Classic black and white thinking, but we are dealing with computers with 
humans mingled in. <g> Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#161772

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On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 03:06:48PM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 14 December 2015 13:54:09 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > >Woah. Calm down a bit.
> > >
> > > That made you uncomfortable a little bit Tomas, huh?
> >
> > Most definitely, yes.
> >
> > >                                                       Please try to
> > > deal with it before issuing instructions to me.
> >
> > No idea how you could take as "instruction" what only could be meant
> > as a "proposal", but there you go...
> 
> It was in the imperative.
> 
> "imperative ‎(countable and uncountable, plural imperatives)
> (uncountable, grammar) The grammatical mood expressing an order "
> 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/imperative

In the languages I know well imperative can express a strong wish as well
as it can express an order.

Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll bow to your interpretation.

Regards
- -- t
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#161775

On Tuesday 15 December 2015 07:15:57 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
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>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 03:06:48PM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Monday 14 December 2015 13:54:09 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > >Woah. Calm down a bit.
> > > >
> > > > That made you uncomfortable a little bit Tomas, huh?
> > >
> > > Most definitely, yes.
> > >
> > > >                                                       Please try to
> > > > deal with it before issuing instructions to me.
> > >
> > > No idea how you could take as "instruction" what only could be meant
> > > as a "proposal", but there you go...
> >
> > It was in the imperative.
> >
> > "imperative ‎(countable and uncountable, plural imperatives)
> > (uncountable, grammar) The grammatical mood expressing an order "
> >
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/imperative
>
> In the languages I know well imperative can express a strong wish as well
> as it can express an order.
>
> Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll bow to your interpretation.

Since when could one extrapolate from one language to another??!  Perhaps the 
languages you know well don't really have an imperative.  I quoted Wiktionary 
anyway, so it is not just my interpretation.

Lisi

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#161777

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On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:00:40AM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 15 December 2015 07:15:57 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll bow to your interpretation.
> 
> Since when could one extrapolate from one language to another??!

I have to do this all the time.

>                                                                   Perhaps the 
> languages you know well don't really have an imperative.

They both have.
>                                                          I quoted Wiktionary 
> anyway, so it is not just my interpretation.

Quoth Wikipedia [1]

  "The imperative is a grammatical mood that forms commands or
   requests, including the giving of prohibition or permission,
   or any other kind of advice or exhortation."

May I take the "request" part?

I'm done with this thread, btw.

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood>

regards
- -- t
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#161778

On Tuesday 15 December 2015 10:50:55 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:00:40AM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Tuesday 15 December 2015 07:15:57 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll bow to your
> > > interpretation.
> >
> > Since when could one extrapolate from one language to another??!
>
> I have to do this all the time.
>
> >                                                                   Perhaps
> > the languages you know well don't really have an imperative.
>
> They both have.
>
> >                                                          I quoted
> > Wiktionary anyway, so it is not just my interpretation.
>
> Quoth Wikipedia [1]
>
>   "The imperative is a grammatical mood that forms commands or
>    requests, including the giving of prohibition or permission,
>    or any other kind of advice or exhortation."
>
> May I take the "request" part?
>
> I'm done with this thread, btw.
>
> [1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood>

 "Please be quiet". (from the above) "Be quiet."  In English the second is 
_certainly_ not a request.  Nor in practice is the first.

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#161779

On Tuesday 15 December 2015 10:50:55 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Since when could one extrapolate from one language to another??!
>
> I have to do this all the time.

Well, you shouldn't.  Languages don't equate in that way.

Lisi

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#161780

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:18 +0000
Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 15 December 2015 10:50:55 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Since when could one extrapolate from one language to another??!
> >
> > I have to do this all the time.
> 
> Well, you shouldn't.  Languages don't equate in that way.
> 
> Lisi
> 

Maybe enough needless banter? It would be better if needed questions
was answered better and with specifics

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#161781

tomas writes:
> In the languages I know well imperative can express a strong wish as
> well as it can express an order.

True in english as well.  It depends on context, though, and can easily
be misinterpreted.

On the other hand it's silly to take offense at what appears to be an
"order" from someone who is clearly lacks any power or authority to
enforce the "order".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#161757

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:57:54PM -0500, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> Dear Dr. Kleene,
> 
> Surely your neuroscience teaching, and other professional duties, at
> UC and elsewhere keep you sufficiently busy so that you shouldn't
> really have to pester Debian volunteers trying to keep the massive
> Debian mailing lists system up and running. You have what appears to
> be a perfectly serviceable uc.edu personal email account. I
> understand how attached you must be to syrano, your personal linux
> server, but please try to get and keep some perspective on all this.
> You are having difficulties of a strictly personal nature that in now
> way merit the time of Debian listadmins.
> 

Plonk*.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(Usenet)

-dsr-

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#161760

On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Plonk*.

Sigh. Another satisfied customer.

> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(Usenet)

FWIW, I didn't need the wikipedia reference. I've been plonked 
in classier joints than this!


-- 
Bob Bernstein

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#161773

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On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 09:49:13AM -0500, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> >Plonk*.
> 
> Sigh. Another satisfied customer.
> 
> >* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(Usenet)
> 
> FWIW, I didn't need the wikipedia reference. I've been plonked in
> classier joints than this!

Now, what do you prefer: being plonked or being ordered to do things?

- -- t
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#161776

On Tuesday 15 December 2015 07:17:20 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 09:49:13AM -0500, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > >Plonk*.
> >
> > Sigh. Another satisfied customer.
> >
> > >* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(Usenet)
> >
> > FWIW, I didn't need the wikipedia reference. I've been plonked in
> > classier joints than this!
>
> Now, what do you prefer: being plonked or being ordered to do things?

Being plonked.  Any day.  Feel free to plonk me any time.  But issuing orders 
is likely to get an adverse reaction.

Agreed, Bob?

Lisi

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#161784

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Lisi Reisz wrote:

>> Now, what do you prefer: being plonked or being ordered to do 
>> things?
>
> Being plonked.  Any day.  Feel free to plonk me any time. 
> But issuing orders is likely to get an adverse reaction.
>
> Agreed, Bob?

Absolutely! Mais certainement! In short, nobody likes being 
*told* what to do.

And, yes, there is something sophomoric about plonking someone 
but telling them about it first. In the Usenet heydays of 
killfiles, that was not as a rule how it was done.

-- 
Bob Bernstein

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