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Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

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  Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-19 16:20 +0200
    Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for  OFFLINE use David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-09-19 17:10 +0200
      Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE  use Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-20 15:00 +0200
        Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for  OFFLINE use David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-09-20 18:00 +0200
          Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE  use Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-21 14:10 +0200
    Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE  use Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-22 13:20 +0200
      Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for  OFFLINE use David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-09-23 03:10 +0200
        Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-23 13:40 +0200
          Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2024-09-24 10:50 +0200
            Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-24 11:50 +0200
              Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-09-24 14:00 +0200
              Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-09-25 00:00 +0200
                boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE (was: Re:  Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience) Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-09-25 04:40 +0200
                  boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE  George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-09-25 23:30 +0200
                    Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-09-26 04:50 +0200
                    Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-09-26 11:00 +0200
                      Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-09-27 04:50 +0200
                        Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-09-27 14:00 +0200
                          Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-09-28 05:10 +0200
                        Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-09-27 14:50 +0200
                    Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-09-28 17:10 +0200
                      Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Florent Rougon <f.rougon@free.fr> - 2024-09-29 15:00 +0200
                      Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-09-30 04:30 +0200
          Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-09-27 04:50 +0200
            Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-09-27 14:10 +0200
            Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-09-27 15:10 +0200

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#273158 — Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" available 
as a single file.

I need it available when the network is not.

It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing 
from DVD1 were available.

TIA

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#273161 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
> available as a single file.
> 
> I need it available when the network is not.
> 
> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
> installing from DVD1 were available.

Have you tried googling:

  debian stable installation guide pdf amd64

which should lead you to:

  https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf

Cheers,
David.

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#273175 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
>> available as a single file.
>>
>> I need it available when the network is not.
>>
>> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
>> installing from DVD1 were available.
> 
> Have you tried googling:
> 
>    debian stable installation guide pdf amd64
> 
> which should lead you to:
> 
>    https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf
> 
> Cheers,
> David.


No ;}
For two primary  reasons:
1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
    SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
    related references conveniently.

Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since days 
of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being available 
as PDF.

Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in several 
years, I said:
> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
> from DVD1 were available. 

I recall most of what has to be accomplished but am hazy on some 
details. So I went looking at https://www.debian.org/ from a "newbie" 
point of view. ~Nada:{
Drilling down leads to https://www.debian.org/do_c/ which first points 
our possibly non-geek newbie to "Installation Guide" and "Debian 
GNU/Linux FAQ" which, though brimming with facts, are inconveniently 
organized.

*HOWEVER* there is something _NEW_ on the page!
Who, me, excited ;}
There is now something called _The Debian Bookworm beginner’s handbook_ 
[ https://debian-beginners-handbook.tuxfamily.org/index-en.html ].
For reasons stated above I'll be using the HTML more than the PDF.

This resource should be linked to on https://www.debian.org/ or at most 
down only one level.

I addresses some of my questions, though it only mentions others.
I'll be doing a lot of reading this weekend.

One question. There are two HTML versions. What's difference between
the_beginners_handbook.html and the_beginners_handbook_night.html ?

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#273177 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

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On Fri 20 Sep 2024 at 07:53:28 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
> > > available as a single file.
> > > 
> > > I need it available when the network is not.
> > > 
> > > It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
> > > installing from DVD1 were available.
> > 
> > Have you tried googling:
> > 
> >    debian stable installation guide pdf amd64
> > 
> > which should lead you to:
> > 
> >    https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf
> 
> No ;}
> For two primary  reasons:
> 1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
>    SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
> 2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
>    related references conveniently.
> 
> Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since
> days of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being
> available as PDF.

The PDF is ~650kB, but for ~17MB you can get all three formats
(PDF/text/HTML) as one file (in the sense it seems you mean) in
the Debian package installation-guide-amd64.

Using tabs isn't affected by whether the HTML code itself is in
a "single" file or a tree.

> Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in
> several years, I said:
> > It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
> > from DVD1 were available.

Sorry, I would have thought you could recite them from memory by now :)

> I recall most of what has to be accomplished but am hazy on some
> details. So I went looking at https://www.debian.org/ from a "newbie"
> point of view. ~Nada:{
> Drilling down leads to https://www.debian.org/do_c/ which first points

FTR remove the "_".

> our possibly non-geek newbie to "Installation Guide" and "Debian
> GNU/Linux FAQ" which, though brimming with facts, are inconveniently
> organized.

Oh dear, I thought that was how the Installation Guide had been
organised since the days of yore.

> *HOWEVER* there is something _NEW_ on the page!
> Who, me, excited ;}
> There is now something called _The Debian Bookworm beginner’s
> handbook_ [
> https://debian-beginners-handbook.tuxfamily.org/index-en.html ].
> For reasons stated above I'll be using the HTML more than the PDF.
> 
> This resource should be linked to on https://www.debian.org/ or at
> most down only one level.

I don't think it makes sense to promote this above the two you've
already mentioned.

> I addresses some of my questions, though it only mentions others.
> I'll be doing a lot of reading this weekend.

If you like it. I prefer the detail of the other two, and it now
sounds as if you might.

> One question. There are two HTML versions. What's difference between
> the_beginners_handbook.html and the_beginners_handbook_night.html ?

It should be as clear as night and day from the very start of each,
but:

  $ diff -U0 the*/the* > diff (attached)

Cheers,
David.

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#273187 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

On 09/20/2024 10:57 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 20 Sep 2024 at 07:53:28 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:
>>> On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>> Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
>>>> available as a single file.
>>>>
>>>> I need it available when the network is not.
>>>>
>>>> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
>>>> installing from DVD1 were available.
>>>
>>> Have you tried googling:
>>>
>>>     debian stable installation guide pdf amd64
>>>
>>> which should lead you to:
>>>
>>>     https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf
>>
>> No ;}
>> For two primary  reasons:
>> 1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
>>     SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
>> 2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
>>     related references conveniently.
>>
>> Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since
>> days of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being
>> available as PDF.
> 
> The PDF is ~650kB, but for ~17MB you can get all three formats
> (PDF/text/HTML) as one file (in the sense it seems you mean) in
> the Debian package installation-guide-amd64.

As you didn't give a URL, I went to
https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=%22Debian%22%20%22package%22%20%22installation-guide-amd64%22

That did not link to "all three formats (PDF/text/HTML) as one file" 
available to one who does not have Debian already installed.

1st hit  of "Details of package installation-guide-amd64 in bullseye"
prompted travel in right direction.

I've been using Debian since Squeeze. I have never been pointed to
[ /usr/share/doc ] nor [ /usr/share/doc-base ]. The latter contains the 
"Installation Guide" as uncompressed HTML filed. PDF&text versions are 
there in compressed format.

> 
> Using tabs isn't affected by whether the HTML code itself is in
> a "single" file or a tree.

My mention of tabs was to point out why PDF was not useful.

> 
>> Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in
>> several years, I said:
>>> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
>>> from DVD1 were available.
> 
> Sorry, I would have thought you could recite them from memory by now :)

Tell me that with a straight face when you pass 80 ;)!
[I haven't seen that set of screens in at least 5 years.]

> 
>> I recall most of what has to be accomplished but am hazy on some
>> details. So I went looking at https://www.debian.org/ from a "newbie"
>> point of view. ~Nada:{
>> Drilling down leads to https://www.debian.org/do_c/ which first points
> 
> FTR remove the "_".
> 
>> our possibly non-geek newbie to "Installation Guide" and "Debian
>> GNU/Linux FAQ" which, though brimming with facts, are inconveniently
>> organized.
> 
> Oh dear, I thought that was how the Installation Guide had been
> organised since the days of yore.

YES! It has bugged me forever ;{

> 
>> *HOWEVER* there is something _NEW_ on the page!
>> Who, me, excited ;}
>> There is now something called _The Debian Bookworm beginner’s
>> handbook_ [
>> https://debian-beginners-handbook.tuxfamily.org/index-en.html ].
>> For reasons stated above I'll be using the HTML more than the PDF.
>>
>> This resource should be linked to on https://www.debian.org/ or at
>> most down only one level.
> 
> I don't think it makes sense to promote this above the two you've
> already mentioned.

It should at least be in the same "Quick Start" paragraph.

> 
>> I addresses some of my questions, though it only mentions others.
>> I'll be doing a lot of reading this weekend.
> 
> If you like it. I prefer the detail of the other two, and it now
> sounds as if you might.

They suffer from too much detail.

> 
>> One question. There are two HTML versions. What's difference between
>> the_beginners_handbook.html and the_beginners_handbook_night.html ?
> 
> It should be as clear as night and day from the very start of each,
> but:
> 
>    $ diff -U0 the*/the* > diff (attached)

*ROFL*
Due to my vision problems, one of the first things done to SeaMonkey was 
choosing "Use my chosen colors, ignoring the colors and background image 
specified" option of Preferences->Appearance->Colors :}!

> 
> Cheers,
> David.
>

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#273205 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

On 09/19/2024 09:16 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" available 
> as a single file.
> 
> I need it available when the network is not.

IF you have *already* installed Debian, the individual HTML files and 
compressed copies of the PDF and plain text versions are in
/usr/share/doc/installation-guide-amd64/en/ .

I have not found where this would be available to a potential first time 
user of Debian.

> 
> It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing 
> from DVD1 were available.

Some(all?) of the images are available in the .../img sub-directory 
created when [ 
https://download.tuxfamily.org/debianbegin/the_beginners_handbook.html.tar.gz 
] is downloaded and decompressed.

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#273220 — Re: Availability of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" for OFFLINE use

On Sat 21 Sep 2024 at 07:03:58 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/20/2024 10:57 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 20 Sep 2024 at 07:53:28 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/19/2024 10:04 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > > > On Thu 19 Sep 2024 at 09:16:25 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > > Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
> > > > > available as a single file.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I need it available when the network is not.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when
> > > > > installing from DVD1 were available.
> > > > 
> > > > Have you tried googling:
> > > > 
> > > >     debian stable installation guide pdf amd64
> > > > 
> > > > which should lead you to:
> > > > 
> > > >     https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/install.en.pdf
> > > 
> > > No ;}
> > > For two primary  reasons:
> > > 1. due to vision/perception problems I avoid PDF in favor of HTML.
> > >     SeaMonkey simplifies consistent font size across documents.
> > > 2. My work style uses tabs to group (and save across restarts)
> > >     related references conveniently.
> > > 
> > > Secondarily, for those preferring PDF, in my use of SeaMonkey since
> > > days of Squeeze I never noticed mention of its documentation being
> > > available as PDF.
> > 
> > The PDF is ~650kB, but for ~17MB you can get all three formats
> > (PDF/text/HTML) as one file (in the sense it seems you mean) in
> > the Debian package installation-guide-amd64.
> 
> As you didn't give a URL, I went to
> https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=%22Debian%22%20%22package%22%20%22installation-guide-amd64%22

URLs aren't a sensible way to refer to Debian packages amongst Debian
users, as we all have the APT tools to locate/download/install them.

> That did not link to "all three formats (PDF/text/HTML) as one file"
> available to one who does not have Debian already installed.

If it linked to a .deb file, then technically that's not true, as .deb
files are just two compressed tar archives (.xz, formerly .gz IIRC)
in an ar archive. But I don't follow why that's of particular concern.

> 1st hit  of "Details of package installation-guide-amd64 in bullseye"
> prompted travel in right direction.
> 
> I've been using Debian since Squeeze. I have never been pointed to
> [ /usr/share/doc ] nor [ /usr/share/doc-base ]. The latter contains
> the "Installation Guide" as uncompressed HTML filed. PDF&text versions
> are there in compressed format.

Since ~woody, and taken here from squeeze's Installation Guide §7.3:

 "Documentation accompanying programs you have installed
  can be found in /usr/share/doc/, un-
  der a subdirectory named after the program (or, more
  precise, the Debian package that contains the
  program). However, more extensive documentation is
  often packaged separately in special documen-
  tation packages that are mostly not installed by
  default. For example, documentation about the pack-
  age management tool apt can be found in the
  packages apt-doc or apt-howto.

 "In addition, there are some special folders within
  the /usr/share/doc/ hierarchy. Linux HOWTOs
  are installed in .gz (compressed) format, in
  /usr/share/doc/HOWTO/en-txt/. After installing
  dhelp, you will find a browsable index of
  documentation in /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html."

> > Using tabs isn't affected by whether the HTML code itself is in
> > a "single" file or a tree.
> 
> My mention of tabs was to point out why PDF was not useful.

I could expand my mention of tabs to include that you can have
multiple browser tabs showing different parts of one PDF file
in the same way as you can with an HTML file.

> > > Because I'm doing a "from scratch" install for the first time in
> > > several years, I said:
> > > > It would be convenient if a copy of the menus appearing when installing
> > > > from DVD1 were available.
> > 
> > Sorry, I would have thought you could recite them from memory by now :)
> 
> Tell me that with a straight face when you pass 80 ;)!
> [I haven't seen that set of screens in at least 5 years.]

I recalled a "SUCESSFUL INSTALL" [sic] status report from May 2022,
and also thought you had restarted installing about 3 months ago.
Perhaps I was assuming too much.

On Sun 22 Sep 2024 at 06:16:53 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/19/2024 09:16 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Is the AMD64 version of "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide"
> > available as a single file.
> > 
> > I need it available when the network is not.

You can download it as a single file or in a tree. See your post:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/04/msg00289.html

> IF you have *already* installed Debian, the individual HTML files and
> compressed copies of the PDF and plain text versions are in
> /usr/share/doc/installation-guide-amd64/en/ .
> 
> I have not found where this would be available to a potential first
> time user of Debian.

I don't see any reason for a first time user wanting all three formats.
I think it's more likely that someone lacking a Debian system might
google what's in the quotes near the top of this post; in fact, just the
two terms "debian installation" give me a link to the HTML version for
the same release/architecture as above.

Cheers,
David.

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#273229 — Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

On 09/22/2024 08:04 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 21 Sep 2024 at 07:03:58 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:*SNIP*
>> Tell me that with a straight face when you pass 80 ;)!
>> [I haven't seen that set of screens in at least 5 years.]
> 
> I recalled a "SUCESSFUL INSTALL" [sic] status report from May 2022,
> and also thought you had restarted installing about 3 months ago.
> Perhaps I was assuming too much.

Paraphrasing someone "To laugh or to cry, that is the question". ;}

About 15 years ago I was asked to tutor a young man who should have been 
in high school. I knew that he was clinically ADHD. After only a few 
weeks I thought I was "looking in a mirror". Referral to a psychologist 
resulted in receiving a tentative diagnosis of being ADHD myself (didn't 
meet all criteria due to age).

I do hyper-focus and can be easily distracted.

A primary deficiency of Debian documentation is lack of indexes [despite 
having file titles of form index.html ].
[q.v. 
https://differencesfinder.com/index-vs-table-of-contents-key-differences-explained/ 
]

As to the referenced "SUCCESSFUL INSTALL":
1. that specific install used only installer defaults.
2. that machine, with no valuable data, was for experiments.

My current goal to multi-boot my primary machine without clobbering 
existing valuable data (even if that data has been backed-up).

*A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot" 
system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.

Though trying to be exhaustive, "Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide" 
suffers from lack of an index.

"The beginner’s handbook", though having some organizational advantages 
and a large number of installer screen images, is aimed at very raw 
newbies. It has minimal coverage of "dual-boot".

I don't have the programming expertise to contribute that way. I'll 
continue creating a TOC for the type of document I'd like to see.

More later.

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#273247 — Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

On 2024-09-23, Richard Owlett wrote:

> *A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot"
>  system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.

I have never heard of such a distinction. Could you provide your sources ?

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#273249 — Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

On 09/24/2024 03:42 AM, Michel Verdier wrote:
> On 2024-09-23, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
>> *A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot"
>>   system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.
> 
> I have never heard of such a distinction. Could you provide your sources ?
> 

No. It's come up in threads over the years. I've never seen the logic of 
distinguishing between "dual-booting" Windows/Linux and "multi-booting" 
Linux/Linux". I've had a Windows/32 bit Linux/64 bit Linux setup.

My phrasing was an attempt to attract replies from all who use either 
the term "dual-boot" or "multi-boot".

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#273251 — Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 04:40:10 -0500
Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

> On 09/24/2024 03:42 AM, Michel Verdier wrote:
> > On 2024-09-23, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >   
> >> *A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or
> >> "multi-boot" system. Debian users make a strong distinction
> >> between the two.  
> > 
> > I have never heard of such a distinction. Could you provide your
> > sources ? 
> 
> No. It's come up in threads over the years. I've never seen the logic
> of distinguishing between "dual-booting" Windows/Linux and
> "multi-booting" Linux/Linux". I've had a Windows/32 bit Linux/64 bit
> Linux setup.
> 
> My phrasing was an attempt to attract replies from all who use either 
> the term "dual-boot" or "multi-boot".
> 
> 
> 

Yes, multi-boot would generally apply to various Linux versions, which
presents few problems other than deciding which grub should rule them
all. Dual-boot may mean this but is usually applied to adding one Linux
distribution to pre-installed Windows. That may present problems with
manufacturers who pretty much require a Windows installation with
booting to Windows Boot Manager.

I have an Acer netbook, which can boot to grub only by renaming the
boot file to the name used by MS, and putting it in a directory called
Microsoft. I'm not kidding.

-- 
Joe

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#273259 — Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience

On Tuesday, 24-09-2024 at 19:40 Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/24/2024 03:42 AM, Michel Verdier wrote:
> > On 2024-09-23, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> >> *A* current question is how to install a "dual-boot" or "multi-boot"
> >>   system. Debian users make a strong distinction between the two.
> > 
> > I have never heard of such a distinction. Could you provide your sources ?
> > 
> 
> No. It's come up in threads over the years. I've never seen the logic of 
> distinguishing between "dual-booting" Windows/Linux and "multi-booting" 
> Linux/Linux". I've had a Windows/32 bit Linux/64 bit Linux setup.
> 
> My phrasing was an attempt to attract replies from all who use either 
> the term "dual-boot" or "multi-boot".

I have often wanted to boot several Linux distributions, but have failed to dual or multi boot from multiple Linux installations.

I use separate disk drives for each installation.

For example I would like to boot, Windows, Debian, Arch Linux, Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Manjaro, OpenSUSE.

An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.

For example if I could do this I would be able to test various GUIs or distributions for applications/games using the same hardware and gauge performance.

George.
 

> 
> 
> 
> 

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#273262 — boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE (was: Re: Finding/creating Debian documentation for an unserved audience)

On 25/09/2024 04:52, George at Clug wrote:
> An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.

What issues you have faced trying to install multiple desktop 
environment to the same Debian installation? Display managers allow to 
select session type before login (but some can not remember per-user 
preferences).

I do not expect serious issues with multiple Linux flavors. Perhaps 
installer should be switched to expert mode to adjust some defaults.

If you still prefer to have independent Debian installations then in the 
case of UEFI and shim-signed+grub-efi-amd64 (for Secure Boot) on the 
same ESP partition see
<https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/vc31n1$ahn$1@ciao.gmane.io>
[SUMMARY] Re: UEFI multiboot. Sat, 14 Sep 2024 10:59:29 +0700

You need grub 2.12 from bookworm-backports and custom GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR 
in /etc/default/grub.

Despite in that thread I was trying to concentrate on selecting OS from 
UEFI firmware menu, Felix Miata repeatedly insisted on using grub menu 
for this purpose. In your case grub menu may be easier to maintain. 
Perhaps Felix may provide more details now to do it conveniently.

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#273285 — boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

My experiences - George.

On Wednesday, 25-09-2024 at 12:37 Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 25/09/2024 04:52, George at Clug wrote:
> > An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.
> 
> What issues you have faced trying to install multiple desktop 
> environment to the same Debian installation? 

Grub did not find other existing Linux distributions. Found Windows, but not other linux distributions.

I did not try hard to determine the reason. I decided if it did not work, don't pursue the issue.

> Display managers allow to 
> select session type before login (but some can not remember per-user 
> preferences).

Using a different display manager is not the same as using a different installation.

> 
> I do not expect serious issues with multiple Linux flavors. Perhaps 
> installer should be switched to expert mode to adjust some defaults.

I do use expert mode when installing Debian.

> 
> If you still prefer to have independent Debian installations then in the 
> case of UEFI and shim-signed+grub-efi-amd64 (for Secure Boot) on the 
> same ESP partition see
> <https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/vc31n1$ahn$1@ciao.gmane.io>
> [SUMMARY] Re: UEFI multiboot. Sat, 14 Sep 2024 10:59:29 +0700

When ever possible, I do not use Secure Boot. Though in my attempt to have multiple Linux installations, I did try (once).

> 
> You need grub 2.12 from bookworm-backports and custom GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR 
> in /etc/default/grub.
> 
> Despite in that thread I was trying to concentrate on selecting OS from 
> UEFI firmware menu, Felix Miata repeatedly insisted on using grub menu 
> for this purpose. In your case grub menu may be easier to maintain. 
> Perhaps Felix may provide more details now to do it conveniently.
> 
> 

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#273291 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On 26/09/2024 04:19, George at Clug wrote:
> Grub did not find other existing Linux distributions. Found Windows, but not other linux distributions.

The following has been discussed on debian-user:
<https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#grub-os-prober>
"GRUB no longer runs os-prober by default"
However I have no ideas since Windows is added to *grub* menu.

> I did not try hard to determine the reason. I decided if it did not work, don't pursue the issue.

Then there is nothing to discuss.

>> I do not expect serious issues with multiple Linux flavors. Perhaps
>> installer should be switched to expert mode to adjust some defaults.
> 
> I do use expert mode when installing Debian.

Have you managed to disable ESP and to avoid updating NVRAM (assuming 
UEFI, not BIOS)?

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#273293 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 07:19:26 +1000
George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> wrote:

> My experiences - George.
> 
> On Wednesday, 25-09-2024 at 12:37 Max Nikulin wrote:
> > On 25/09/2024 04:52, George at Clug wrote:  
> > > An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and
> > > Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.  
> > 
<snip>
> 
> > Display managers allow to 
> > select session type before login (but some can not remember
> > per-user preferences).  
> 
> Using a different display manager is not the same as using a
> different installation.
> 
No, for that you need multi-boot.

But to compare Gnome, KDE etc. you would be staying within one
installation and using the display manager to switch between desktop
environments, which is what these things are. You could also compare
with other environments such as window managers, but generally only
heavy professional users find it convenient to eliminate the desktop
environments, such as you mention (also LXDE and Cinnamon).

If you look around your login screen, it may not be obvious, but there
should be a way to select different types of session. Even with a
default Debian installation you should find a session control widget in
the top right corner of the screen while the login box is shown, though
it will only contain the desktop you selected on installation. But you
can install others, and they will appear on this session menu.

There are also multiple display managers you can try, and again can
install several and select between them. 

https://wiki.debian.org/DisplayManager

Some further notes:

https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=154871

Mostly different DMs just give you different login dialogs, they all do
the same things in terms of starting an X session. They don't make any
difference to the environment once the session has started.

-- 
Joe

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#273316 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On Thu 26 Sep 2024 at 09:52:18 (+0100), Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 07:19:26 +1000 George at Clug wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 25-09-2024 at 12:37 Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > On 25/09/2024 04:52, George at Clug wrote:  
> > > > An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and
> > > > Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.  
> > > 
> <snip>
> > 
> > > Display managers allow to 
> > > select session type before login (but some can not remember
> > > per-user preferences).  
> > 
> > Using a different display manager is not the same as using a
> > different installation.
> > 
> No, for that you need multi-boot.
> 
> But to compare Gnome, KDE etc. you would be staying within one
> installation and using the display manager to switch between desktop
> environments, which is what these things are. You could also compare
> with other environments such as window managers, but generally only
> heavy professional users find it convenient to eliminate the desktop
> environments, such as you mention (also LXDE and Cinnamon).
> 
> If you look around your login screen, it may not be obvious, but there
> should be a way to select different types of session. Even with a
> default Debian installation you should find a session control widget in
> the top right corner of the screen while the login box is shown, though
> it will only contain the desktop you selected on installation. But you
> can install others, and they will appear on this session menu.

Is it safe to assume that the environment a sole DE gives you is the
same as the environment when you've switched to that DE from running
several others, or even when other DEs are installed on the system?
Particularly (but sticking with Debian) in the context of:

> > > > For example if I could do this I would be able to test
> > > > various GUIs or distributions for applications/games
> > > > using the same hardware and gauge performance.

Also, do DEs ever disagree over how they use their dotfiles?

Cheers,
David.

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#273319 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On Friday, 27-09-2024 at 12:40 David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 26 Sep 2024 at 09:52:18 (+0100), Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 07:19:26 +1000 George at Clug wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 25-09-2024 at 12:37 Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > > On 25/09/2024 04:52, George at Clug wrote:  
> > > > > An other example would be to boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and
> > > > > Debian Mate, Debian XFCE.  
> > > > 
> > <snip>
> > > 
> > > > Display managers allow to 
> > > > select session type before login (but some can not remember
> > > > per-user preferences).  
> > > 
> > > Using a different display manager is not the same as using a
> > > different installation.
> > > 
> > No, for that you need multi-boot.
> > 
> > But to compare Gnome, KDE etc. you would be staying within one
> > installation and using the display manager to switch between desktop
> > environments, which is what these things are. You could also compare
> > with other environments such as window managers, but generally only
> > heavy professional users find it convenient to eliminate the desktop
> > environments, such as you mention (also LXDE and Cinnamon).
> > 
> > If you look around your login screen, it may not be obvious, but there
> > should be a way to select different types of session. Even with a
> > default Debian installation you should find a session control widget in
> > the top right corner of the screen while the login box is shown, though
> > it will only contain the desktop you selected on installation. But you
> > can install others, and they will appear on this session menu.
> 
> Is it safe to assume that the environment a sole DE gives you is the
> same as the environment when you've switched to that DE from running
> several others, or even when other DEs are installed on the system?

See issues I raised below. The main issue with installing multiple DEs, is that you get a very different installation to that of a single DE installation.

For example, when I install XFCE (my favourite DE) I often also install Cinnamon and/or Mate, but only ever log into XFCE. Installing in this manner installs many other programs that I like, e.g. gedit, System Monitor to be installed which I would otherwise have to install separately and later after the initial OS installation. 

One thing I find annoying about XFCE, if I only install XFCE, Thunar is unable to connect to SAMBA shares, but if I also install Cinnamon, then when logging into XFCE, Thunar can connect to SAMBA shares. 

There are packages I can install to get Thunar in an XFCE only installation to connect to SAMBA shares, but it is so much easier just to install both XFCE and Cinnamon when initially installing Debian. 



> Particularly (but sticking with Debian) in the context of:
> 
> > > > > For example if I could do this I would be able to test
> > > > > various GUIs or distributions for applications/games
> > > > > using the same hardware and gauge performance.
> 
> Also, do DEs ever disagree over how they use their dotfiles?

You have raised a good point.

When trying to use a single Linux installation for multiple DEs (GUIs), I have had these concerns:

1) If you install multiple DEs you get many files/programs installed that are extra to a specific DE.  This alters greatly the DE experience such that it become meaningless in trying/testing the given DE.

2) I have had issues with /home/[user].config files being corrupted as each DE alters various config files in their own way, causing conflicts with other DEs.

3) I am not confident that constant switching between display manager, e.g. LightDM, SLiM, XDM, GDM, SDDM, KDM, Ly will not cause issues. Besides the frustration of changing the configuration each time you want to jump into another DE.

4) Logging into different DEs does not provide for Windows/Arch Linux/Ubuntu/Linux Mint/Manjaro multiboot scenario.

Booting into completely different installations on different disk drives works very well, if you can select which drive you are booting from. And allows for comparison of distributions on the same hardware.

George.


> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#273341 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On 27/09/2024 18:53, George at Clug wrote:
> 3) I am not confident that constant switching between display manager,
> e.g. LightDM, SLiM, XDM, GDM, SDDM, KDM, Ly will not cause issues.
> Besides the frustration of changing the configuration each time you want
>   to jump into another DE.

Is it really necessary to switch DM to start another DE? OK, when I 
tried GNOME last time ~3 years ago on Ubuntu, there was vendor lock-in 
to GDM due to usage of some API outside of XDG specs. I faced some 
issues with GDM (so I am avoiding it), but it was possible to use 
another session type. LightDM and SDDM have menus to select session type 
as well.

I would avoid using the same home directory for running different 
versions of some application (different distributions or 
stable/unstable), but I do not expect much issues after logging in with 
different session type from the same installation.

Certainly "clean" GNOME and KDE installs and a mixed case may reveal 
different bugs. An intermediate approach is to create a user per DE.

> 4) Logging into different DEs does not provide for Windows/Arch
> Linux/Ubuntu/Linux Mint/Manjaro multiboot scenario.

I just expect that more corner cases might arise for booting multiple 
variants of specific distribution than for different distributions.

> Booting into completely different installations on different disk drives
>   works very well,

I am completely confused. From my point of view it is in contradiction with

> I have often wanted to boot several Linux distributions, but have failed
> to dual or multi boot from multiple Linux installations.

Does it mean that you physically replace drives instead of configuring 
UEFI or Grub menu?

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#273321 — Re: boot Debian Gnome, Debian KDE, and Mate, XFCE

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 21:40:30 -0500
David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:


> 
> Is it safe to assume that the environment a sole DE gives you is the
> same as the environment when you've switched to that DE from running
> several others, or even when other DEs are installed on the system?

No, the second link I gave has some cautions to that effect.
> 
> 
> Also, do DEs ever disagree over how they use their dotfiles?

No idea, but if there are significant configuration differences in the
applications they use, which are all obviously the same code within one
installation, maybe. It's why I suggested that although it's possible
to use a shared home between distributions, it may not be wise. That
may also possibly be the case with different DEs, though as far as I
know, Debian does not issue cautions on that subject. With things like
the Mozilla applications, it is possible to use separate profiles for
different DEs.

In any case, I would not have thought the need to compare DEs would, to
begin with, go into fine detail, enough to warrant separate
installations. That may be worth doing if the OP has come down to a
choice between two or three, and wants to make detailed benchmark
assessments or similar.

-- 
Joe

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