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DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

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  DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release? Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-08-27 14:20 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2024-08-27 15:40 +0200
      Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-08-27 16:40 +0200
        Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-08-27 17:50 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-08-27 15:40 +0200
      Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-08-27 16:20 +0200
        Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-08-27 17:40 +0200
          Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-08-27 18:00 +0200
        Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2024-08-29 04:10 +0200
          Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-08-29 12:40 +0200
            Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2024-08-29 14:50 +0200
            Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-08-29 17:40 +0200
            Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-08-29 19:20 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-08-27 15:40 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current  release? Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2024-08-27 17:30 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-08-27 17:30 +0200
    Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2024-08-27 19:30 +0200

#272613 — DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support 
current Debian release.

I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
Processors identified by running lscpu:

Machine 1:
Architecture:	i686
Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz

Machine 2:
Architecture:	x86_64
Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz

Machine 3:
Architecture:	i686
Model name:	Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz

Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
[For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

TIA

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#272616

On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 at 13:06, Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:

> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> current Debian release.
>
> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.

To add to Dan's reply:
https://www.debian.org/ports/
https://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-32

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#272623 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On 08/27/2024 08:36 AM, David wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 at 13:06, Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:
> 
>> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
>> current Debian release.
>>
>> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> 
> To add to Dan's reply:
> https://www.debian.org/ports/

No mention of i686 nor x86_64.

> https://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/

No mention of i686 nor x86_64.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64

Not Debian documentation.
Though x86_64 is mentioned in footnotes there is none to indicate that 
i686 can run Debian 64 bit software (only mention is about 32 bit)

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-32

Not Debian documentation and OFF-TOPIC as it is strictly about 32 bit.

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#272627 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:
> On 08/27/2024 08:36 AM, David wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 at 13:06, Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net>
> > wrote: 
> >> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors
> >> support current Debian release.
> >>
> >> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.  
> > 
> > To add to Dan's reply:
> > https://www.debian.org/ports/  
> 
> No mention of i686 nor x86_64.
> 
> > https://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/  
> 
> No mention of i686 nor x86_64.

I agree that the Debian documentation doesn't seem to answer your
question, which I paraphrase as "Does XXX model of CPU run Debian?".
However I'd argue that your response to the various suggestions offered
has been over-critical.

I'd also say that I think that given the large number of possible CPU
types and the fact AIUI that Debian doesn't care at all, simply
accepting whatever the kernel folks do, plus the limited resources of
the Debian community, it doesn't surprise me that their documentation
doesn't answer the question.
 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64  
> 
> Not Debian documentation.
> Though x86_64 is mentioned in footnotes there is none to indicate
> that i686 can run Debian 64 bit software (only mention is about 32
> bit)

Given my explanation above, I think it is reasonable to look elsewhere
than Debian documentation for an answer to your question, and this
wikipedia page appears to provide an answer to it. Your processors are
specifically mentioned AFAICT.

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#272617 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

Richard Owlett wrote: 
> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> current Debian release.
> 
> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> Processors identified by running lscpu:
> 
> Machine 1:
> Architecture:	i686
> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
> 
> Machine 2:
> Architecture:	x86_64
> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
> 
> Machine 3:
> Architecture:	i686
> Model name:	Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
> 
> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
> [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html

and

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html

will tell you that the difference is whether the CPU has the
amd64 (also called x86_64) instruction set.

So machine 2 with the t7300 will definitely run the amd64 release.

Next you need to look at the manufacturer's documentation. In
this case, Intel:

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/35300/intel-pentium-processor-e5300-2m-cache-2-60-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html
says that the e5300 has the 64 bit instruction set, so it will
also run the amd64 release.

and

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/30774/intel-celeron-processor-540-1m-cache-1-86-ghz-533-mhz-fsb.html
says that the M540 also has that, so will also run amd64.

All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.

-dsr-

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#272620 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
>> current Debian release.
>>
>> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
>> Processors identified by running lscpu:
>>
>> Machine 1:
>> Architecture:	i686
>> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
>>
>> Machine 2:
>> Architecture:	x86_64
>> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
>>
>> Machine 3:
>> Architecture:	i686
>> Model name:	Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
>>
>> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
>> [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]
> 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html

That was the USELESS page prompting the question!
> 
> and
> 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html

That page is 32 bit oriented. I wish to run *64 bit*.

> 
> will tell you that the difference is whether the CPU has the
> amd64 (also called x86_64) instruction set.
> 
> So machine 2 with the t7300 will definitely run the amd64 release.
> 
> Next you need to look at the manufacturer's documentation. In
> this case, Intel:
> 
> https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/35300/intel-pentium-processor-e5300-2m-cache-2-60-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html
> says that the e5300 has the 64 bit instruction set, so it will
> also run the amd64 release.

OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.

> 
> and
> 
> https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/30774/intel-celeron-processor-540-1m-cache-1-86-ghz-533-mhz-fsb.html
> says that the M540 also has that, so will also run amd64.

OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.

> 
> All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.

Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has 
some unspecified expertise.

> 
> -dsr-
> 
> 
> 

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#272626 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

Richard Owlett wrote: 
> On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> > > current Debian release.

...

> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html
> 
> That was the USELESS page prompting the question!

No, it was the useful page that you didn't understand.

> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html
> 
> That page is 32 bit oriented. I wish to run *64 bit*.


There I was thinking that we would have a friendly interaction.
Instead you yell at me, ignore what I wrote, and insist that not
only does the world have to cater to you, but it also has to spoon-feed you
information in the exact texture that you prefer.

> > https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/35300/intel-pentium-processor-e5300-2m-cache-2-60-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html
> > says that the e5300 has the 64 bit instruction set, so it will
> > also run the amd64 release.
> 
> OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.

I gave you the Debian docs. It tells you what you need to look
for. It is not Debian's responsbility, nor would it be a good
use of a volunteer's time, to keep track of every CPU ever made.

Then I gave you the precise reference documentation. It *IS*
Intel's responsibility to keep track of their CPU list, and they
do so quite well.

> Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.

These CPUs *can* run the Debian AMD64 port. Will your specific
machines? Probably, but there are always manufacturers who
decide to do something bizarre in the name of profit. Nobody can
give you a definitive answer without trying it out on your
specific machines. And that's what you should do.


> I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has some
> unspecified expertise.

You were looking to not just be spoonfed the answer, but to not
have to learn anything. Tough noogies.

Plonk. 

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#272628 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 11:23:09 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:


> 
> These CPUs *can* run the Debian AMD64 port. Will your specific
> machines? Probably, but there are always manufacturers who
> decide to do something bizarre in the name of profit. Nobody can
> give you a definitive answer without trying it out on your
> specific machines. And that's what you should do.
> 

It did occur to me that the best way to discover whether a computer can
run a particular operating system is to try it. Download a 64-bit
netinstall and try it in graphical rescue mode. It will write nothing
unless explicitly told to. If it gets as far as correctly enumerating
the existing partitions, it is fairly safe to say that the binary code
set runs successfully on the CPU.

-- 
Joe

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#272675 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 09:10:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
>>>current Debian release.
>>>
>>>I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
>>>Processors identified by running lscpu:
>>>
>>>Machine 1:
>>>Architecture:	i686
>>>Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
>>>
>>>Machine 2:
>>>Architecture:	x86_64
>>>Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
>>>
>>>Machine 3:
>>>Architecture:	i686
>>>Model name:	Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
>>>
>>>Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
>>>[For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]
>>
>>https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html
>
>That was the USELESS page prompting the question!
>>
>>and
[snip more rudeness]
>
>OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.
>
>>
>>and
>>
>>https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/30774/intel-celeron-processor-540-1m-cache-1-86-ghz-533-mhz-fsb.html
>>says that the M540 also has that, so will also run amd64.
>
>OFF-TOPIC: I explicitly asked for *DEBIAN DOCUMENTATION*.
>
>>
>>All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.
>
>Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
>I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has 
>some unspecified expertise.

Did the documentation tell you to run lscpu and do something with the 
architecture field? It seems to me that you're doing your own thing in 
your own way and expecting us to accomodate that, which seems at least 
somewhat unreasonable. For background: the lscpu architecture field 
doesn't tell you what kind of cpu you're running. Instead, it tells you 
the architecture of the system on which lscpu is running, and more 
specifically, what architecture the *kernel* is built for. If you run 
lscpu on a bookworm i386 system with the default kernel, it will say 
i686. If you reboot the system with an amd64 kernel, it will say x86_64, 
even though it's the same i386 install! You can see why giving us this 
line is completely USELESS? (So how would an amd64 kernel get on an i386 
install? Two ways: in older versions, there were multiple kernel options 
like i486, i686, and amd64, and the user could select any of them. The 
benefit of using an amd64 kernel on an i386 install was that you could 
utilize more memory efficiently. With a current release if you want to 
do the same thing you can set up a multiarch system or just install the 
amd64 deb and force the architecture.)

As others have suggested, the bottom line is that debian doesn't know 
whether *your machine* can run debian amd64. In general most computers
from the past 10+ years can, even many from the past 20+ years. The cpu 
manufacturer documentation will give you some information (e.g., intel 
ark says for the E5300: "Intel® 64 Yes"). But it's possible that a 
computer might not support 64 bit mode even if the cpu does (not common 
now, but was a thing once upon a time) so you'd need to also check the 
computer manufacturer's documentation. The practical answer, because 
documentation for old computers is hard to find and mostly was terrible 
when it was written, is to simply run the amd64 netinst or live image: 
if 64 bit mode isn't supported, it won't run.

FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a 
comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run on. 
There may be a list of machines it was tested on, but that will be a 
subset of all possible machines. The odds that your specific old machine 
is on any such list for a current OS is fairly small, whether from 
debian or anyone else.

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#272680 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

My formal programming background is limited to an introductory course 
using CORC/CUPL (Dartmouth's BASIC being years in future). My last 
production code used 8080 assembler - my employer hadn't yet switched 
completely to 8085. I've owned a variety of machines - early a PET and a 
Kim. Still have a Kaypro 10 in a back room - haven't booted in decades.

On 08/28/2024 09:07 PM, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 09:10:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 08/27/2024 08:14 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
>>>> current Debian release.
>>>>
>>>> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
>>>> Processors identified by running lscpu:
>>>>
>>>> Machine 1:
>>>> Architecture:    i686
>>>> Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
>>>>
>>>> Machine 2:
>>>> Architecture:    x86_64
>>>> Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
>>>>
>>>> Machine 3:
>>>> Architecture:    i686
>>>> Model name:    Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
>>>>
>>>> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
>>>> [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]
>>>
>[snip static ;]
>>>
>>> All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.
>>
>> Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
>> I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader has 
>> some unspecified expertise.
> 
> Did the documentation tell you to run lscpu and do something with the 
> architecture field?

No *GRIN* But is one of reasons I asked.
Over a half century of real real world experience suggested lscpu would 
be a suitable reporting tool.

> It seems to me that you're doing your own thing in 
> your own way and expecting us to accomodate that, which seems at least 
> somewhat unreasonable. For background: the lscpu architecture field 
> doesn't tell you what kind of cpu you're running. Instead, it tells you 
> the architecture of the system on which lscpu is running, and more 
> specifically, what architecture the *kernel* is built for.

DEBIAN documentation appears to disagree with you.The manpage[1] states:
> lscpu - display information about the CPU architecture

Only suggestion that it may not be physical reality is when it states:
> In virtualized environments, the CPU architecture information displayed
> reflects the configuration of the guest operating system which is
> typically different from the physical (host) system.

> 
> FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a 
> comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run on.

That was *NOT* the question.

I ask "What doth DEBIAN require of my CPU?"

[1] https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/util-linux/lscpu.1.en.html

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#272684 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 05:36:50AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>My formal programming background is limited to an introductory course 
>using CORC/CUPL (Dartmouth's BASIC being years in future). My last 
>production code used 8080 assembler - my employer hadn't yet switched 
>completely to 8085. I've owned a variety of machines - early a PET and 
>a Kim. Still have a Kaypro 10 in a back room - haven't booted in 
>decades.

Thank you for the history lesson? I don't see how it impacts how you 
should interact with people who tried to help you on a public forum.

>On 08/28/2024 09:07 PM, Michael Stone wrote:
>>On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 09:10:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>Did the documentation tell you to run lscpu and do something with 
>>the architecture field?
>
>No *GRIN* But is one of reasons I asked.
>Over a half century of real real world experience suggested lscpu 
>would be a suitable reporting tool.

Adding a GRIN doesn't improve things at this point.

When people tried to assist you, you complained:
   Not Debian documentation.
   Though x86_64 is mentioned in footnotes there is none to indicate that i686
   can run Debian 64 bit software (only mention is about 32 bit)
but *you* are the one who brought i686 into the discussion, based on 
reading the wrong line in lscpu and going off on a tangent. It's not 
their fault that you can't find a reference in the documentation to 
information not relevant to the question.

As a matter of fact lscpu can help answer the question, but it's the 
second line ("CPU op-mode(s)") that indicates whether the CPU supports 
64-bit instructions even if running on a 32 bit kernel, not the 
"Architecture" line. *But*, I'm not sure the op-mode line is fully 
determinative in the presence of machines which don't support booting 
into 64 bit mode even though the CPU supports 64 bit instructions. (I 
simply can't recall if the CPU on such a system would mask out support 
for 64-bit instructions; I suspect not, but it's been a long time since 
I encountered one of those and have no way to confirm the behavior.) 
That's why I said you need to either go on a fruitless search for good 
system documentation or simply boot the thing to answer the question.

I guess one could argue that it isn't clear that "64-bit op-modes" 
aren't referenced specifically in the documentation, but the 
countargument would be that the documentation doesn't try to answer the 
question based on lscpu output in the first place, probably because it
assumes that anyone who's gotten to the point of running lscpu could very 
well run the installer itself.

>>It seems to me that you're doing your own thing in your own way and 
>>expecting us to accomodate that, which seems at least somewhat 
>>unreasonable. For background: the lscpu architecture field doesn't 
>>tell you what kind of cpu you're running. Instead, it tells you the 
>>architecture of the system on which lscpu is running, and more 
>>specifically, what architecture the *kernel* is built for.
>
>DEBIAN documentation appears to disagree with you.The manpage[1] states:
>>lscpu - display information about the CPU architecture

That in no way conflicts with what I wrote. The specific "Architecture" 
field is information about the CPU architecture, but comes from the 
kernel running on the CPU and does not necessarily reflect the full
capabilities of the CPU itself (without regard to limitations of the 
booted kernel). Other fields do come directly from the CPU. All of the 
information together is useful to determine what programs can execute on 
the system.

>>FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a 
>>comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run on.
>
>That was *NOT* the question.
>
>I ask "What doth DEBIAN require of my CPU?"

Check the subject line--are you sure that's what you actually asked? 
Your original message said: "I'm looking for for where *Debian* 
documents which processors support current Debian release." In any 
event, the question has been answered multiple times: you need a 
processor that supports the AMD64 or Intel 64 instruction sets. You've 
referenced that documentation yourself. You've been told that you need 
to figure out if your system supports those instructions because debian 
doesn't know, and that the easiest way to do so is to simply boot the 
installer. 

For most people it's sufficient to know that basically any mainstream 
computer for the past 10 years supports amd64. Or, they'd just boot it 
and find out. But you're in the singular position of demanding a more 
complex and technical answer, while simultaneously demanding that the 
answer be aimed at a reader with no technical expertise. Sorry, nobody 
has written that because the audience of people who have no technical 
knowledge but want to gain expertise in a complex area based solely on 
reading an installation document is extremely small. In simple cases the 
answer is really simple and straightforward ("just assume it will 
work"), and in complex cases where that simple answer is wrong it takes 
a good deal more background knowledge to understand why things aren't 
working. It's far more practical for people to simply try it, and 
perhaps ask why it *isn't* working if it does not, than it is for 
someone to try to write a simple document explaining complex failure 
modes.

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#272690 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:
> My formal programming background is limited to an introductory course 
> using CORC/CUPL (Dartmouth's BASIC being years in future).
[snip]

That doesn't seem to be quite right. CORC preceded Dartmouth BASIC by a
couple of years, whilst CUPL followed it by two years, if I am to
believe wikipedia.
 
> On 08/28/2024 09:07 PM, Michael Stone wrote:
> > It seems to me that you're doing your own thing in 
> > your own way and expecting us to accomodate that, which seems at
> > least somewhat unreasonable. For background: the lscpu architecture
> > field doesn't tell you what kind of cpu you're running. Instead, it
> > tells you the architecture of the system on which lscpu is running,
> > and more specifically, what architecture the *kernel* is built
> > for.  
> 
> DEBIAN documentation appears to disagree with you.The manpage[1]
> states:
> > lscpu - display information about the CPU architecture  

You are once again personalising matters when there's no need, as well
as getting facts wrong. This is bad; please try to improve.

Debian is sometimes spelled with mixed case as I have done, and
sometimes all in lower case. It is not usually spelled all in upper
case and doing so in email makes it seem that you are shouting the word
for emphasis. Maybe you are, but you are wrong to do so.

Firstly, manpages are not "Debian documentation". That is, they are for
the most part generated by the authors of individual packages and are
then incorporated in Debian. Sometimes a Debian member will write a
manpage if there is none for a particular package.

Secondly, when reading a manpage it is wise not to rely too much on the
one-line description. If you read the rest of the page it tells you
where the information comes from and you could imply more from that.

> > FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a 
> > comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run
> > on.  
> 
> That was *NOT* the question.
> 
> I ask "What doth DEBIAN require of my CPU?"

Again, you seem to be railing against people who are trying to help
you. The most important thing to do is to try to improve how you
express yourself, and how you interpret what other people say. I hope
you can.

> [1] https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/util-linux/lscpu.1.en.html
 

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#272691 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 05:36:50AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > > I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> > > > > current Debian release.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> > > > > Processors identified by running lscpu:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Machine 1:
> > > > > Architecture:    i686
> > > > > Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
> > > > > 
> > > > > Machine 2:
> > > > > Architecture:    x86_64
> > > > > Model name:    Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
> > > > > 
> > > > > Machine 3:
> > > > > Architecture:    i686
> > > > > Model name:    Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
> > > > > 
> > > > > Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
> > > > > [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]
> > > > 
> > [snip static ;]
> > > > 
> > > > All of these CPUs should run Debian amd64.
> > > 
> > > Weak point there is the word "should". Based on *your* background.
> > > I was looking for documentation that *does not* assume the reader
> > > has some unspecified expertise.
> > 

less /proc/cpuinfo

that will give you *all* the flags that your processor supports.

"amd64 flag /proc/cpuinfo" into a search engine tells you that the
flag you need reported is lm

That doesn't assume prior expertise, particularly 

> > Did the documentation tell you to run lscpu and do something with the
> > architecture field?
> 
> No *GRIN* But is one of reasons I asked.
> Over a half century of real real world experience suggested lscpu would be a
> suitable reporting tool.
> 

"What program shows CPU info in Linux" will give you 
https://www.techtarget.com/searchdatacenter/tip/How-to-check-your-CPU-in-a-Linux-system for example

lscpu, /proc/cpuinfo and so on.

> > 
> > FWIW, there isn't any reasonably general x86 OS that maintains a
> > comprehensive list of every possible computer model it will run on.
> 
> That was *NOT* the question.
> 
> I ask "What doth DEBIAN require of my CPU?"
> 

"Ask not what Debian requires of your CPU, ask what you require of Debian"
and please engage positively with people who are trying to help.

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater
(amacater@debian.org)

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#272619

> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?

Yes, on all three, both using the i386 (which is being phased out) or
the amd64 ports.


        Stefan

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#272624 — Re: DEBIAN documentation: which 64 bit processors run current release?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Aug 27, 2024, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> current Debian release.
> 
> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> Processors identified by running lscpu:
> 
> Machine 1:
> Architecture:	i686
> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
> 
> Machine 2:
> Architecture:	x86_64
> Model name:	Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
> 
> Machine 3:
> Architecture:	i686
> Model name:	Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
> 
> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
> [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

As I recall "i686" is a 32-bit "architecture" (i.e. the "80686" aka the
P4 -- something something trademarks, etc. after the '486).  That being
said, the i5-m540 is certainly 64-bit hardware according to Intel's spec
sheets.  Likewise the Pentium-E5300 ([1] and [2], respectively).  Not
really sure why lscpu would tell you they're 32-bit then, outside of
"error" caused by running a 32-bit OS.

As long as they show the 'lm' flag in lscpu, you'll quite likely be
fine.  There aren't really any artificial restrictions or requirements,
such as the TPM module (or whichever generation of the SSE instruction
set).  For comparison, I have buster or bullseye running on some ancient
AMD PhenomII (exact processor forgotten at the moment, I want to say '09
vintage).

Your biggest concern would likely be how much RAM the systems in
question have

  * Anything less than 2GB probably isn't worth it
  * >2G <=4G will "work", though I'd hazard it will always feel 
    sluggish
  * >4G will likely work fine under "light" loads (i.e. you'll 
    probably kill it with more than a handful of browser tabs open)

For reference, that old PhenomII box I mentioned has 6G of RAM, and its
main problem is "heat" moreso than lack of RAM -- as I recall, the darn
thing likes to idle at 55C or so (I really "should" replace the thermal
compound, but also why bother, it's just for plugging an arduino into
and playing about on the workbench so WHEN I screw up, I don't ruin my
nice machine :)).

  

[1]
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/43544/intel-core-i5-540m-processor-3m-cache-2-53-ghz.html

[2]
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/35300/intel-pentium-processor-e5300-2m-cache-2-60-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html

-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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#272625

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 11:16 AM Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> current Debian release.

<https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html>

> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> Processors identified by running lscpu:
>
> Machine 1:
> Architecture:   i686
> Model name:     Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
>
> Machine 2:
> Architecture:   x86_64
> Model name:     Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
>
> Machine 3:
> Architecture:   i686
> Model name:     Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
>
> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?
> [For historical reasons I currently run 32 bit on all.]

Jeff

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#272632

вт, 27 авг. 2024 г. в 21:26, Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net>:
>
> I'm looking for for where *Debian* documents which processors support
> current Debian release.
>

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s01.en.html
"""
2.1.2. CPU Support
Both AMD64 and Intel 64 processors are supported.
"""

Debian is not an enterprise distribution, so does not have HCL for
tested hardware and you will not be subject to any penalties when you
install it on hardware not in HCL.

> I have three machines whose processors are 64 bit capable.
> Processors identified by running lscpu:
>
> Machine 1:
> Architecture:   i686
> Model name:     Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 540  @ 2.53GHz
>
> Machine 2:
> Architecture:   x86_64
> Model name:     Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
>
> Machine 3:
> Architecture:   i686
> Model name:     Pentium(R) Dual-Core  CPU      E5300  @ 2.60GHz
>
> Will the OS linked to by https://www.debian.org/ run on all three?

Yes. All three.

-- 
Stanislav

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