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domain status in registry and registrar

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  domain status in registry and registrar Wesley <wesley@mxcloud.eu.org> - 2024-08-19 09:50 +0200
    Re: domain status in registry and registrar <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-08-19 10:20 +0200
      Re: domain status in registry and registrar Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2024-08-19 11:00 +0200
      Re: domain status in registry and registrar Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-08-19 15:00 +0200
        Re: domain status in registry and registrar <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-08-19 15:10 +0200
          Re: domain status in registry and registrar Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-08-19 15:40 +0200
            Re: domain status in registry and registrar Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-08-19 16:10 +0200
              Re: domain status in registry and registrar Michael Kjörling <c9bc136c6063@ewoof.net> - 2024-08-19 16:30 +0200
    Re: domain status in registry and registrar Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-08-19 18:40 +0200
      Re: domain status in registry and registrar Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-08-19 18:50 +0200
        Re: domain status in registry and registrar Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-08-19 21:30 +0200
      Re: domain status in registry and registrar Wesley <wesley@mxcloud.eu.org> - 2024-08-20 01:10 +0200
        Re: domain status in registry and registrar Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-08-20 01:20 +0200

#272300 — domain status in registry and registrar

First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name 
registration industry. I checked a domain name, datafarm.net, and its 
DNS showed that there was no record (nxdomain) at the registry. However, 
when I checked whois, it showed that the domain name was already 
registered at the registrar. Why is this?

This is the dns info from registry nameserver:

; <<>> DiG 9.10.6 <<>> datafarm.net
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 7447
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1

;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION:
; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 512
;; QUESTION SECTION:
;datafarm.net.			IN	A

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
net.			900	IN	SOA	a.gtld-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 1724053585 
1800 900 604800 86400

;; Query time: 1441 msec
;; SERVER: 10.160.0.1#53(10.160.0.1)
;; WHEN: Mon Aug 19 15:46:53 CST 2024
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 120


And, this is the info from part of whois:

Domain Name: DATAFARM.NET
Registry Domain ID: 73273226_DOMAIN_NET-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.tucows.com
Registrar URL: http://tucowsdomains.com
Updated Date: 2024-05-27T04:03:20
Creation Date: 2001-06-25T16:40:22
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2025-06-25T16:40:22
Registrar: TUCOWS, INC.


Thanks.
-- 
https://wespeng.pages.dev/

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#272301

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On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
> First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name
> registration industry.

No need. We all stumble in the dark :-)

> I checked a domain name, datafarm.net, and its DNS
> showed that there was no record (nxdomain) at the registry.

No. This only means that there is no DNS record for that name. Very
strictly speaking, that your name server doesn't know that there is
one (but generally, DNS works globally, so).

> However, when I
> checked whois, it showed that the domain name was already registered at the
> registrar. Why is this?

And that means that the name (space) was reserved at some point. It doesn't
mean it has to be used -- just that whoever reserved (registered) it can
use it at some point in time.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#272302

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On Aug 19, 2024, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
> > First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name
> > registration industry.
> 
> No need. We all stumble in the dark :-)
> 
> > I checked a domain name, datafarm.net, and its DNS
> > showed that there was no record (nxdomain) at the registry.
> 
> No. This only means that there is no DNS record for that name. Very
> strictly speaking, that your name server doesn't know that there is
> one (but generally, DNS works globally, so).

Only if a global record was created.  It's entirely possible that the
domain serves an 'internal-only' purpose for the entity that registered
it.  


-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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#272306

On 19/8/24 16:11, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
>> First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name
>> registration industry.
> 
> No need. We all stumble in the dark :-)
> 
>> I checked a domain name, datafarm.net, and its DNS
>> showed that there was no record (nxdomain) at the registry.
> 
> No. This only means that there is no DNS record for that name. Very
> strictly speaking, that your name server doesn't know that there is
> one (but generally, DNS works globally, so).
> 
>> However, when I
>> checked whois, it showed that the domain name was already registered at the
>> registrar. Why is this?
> 
> And that means that the name (space) was reserved at some point. It doesn't
> mean it has to be used -- just that whoever reserved (registered) it can
> use it at some point in time.
> 
> Cheers
I think that a simpler way of explaining What Tomas has said, is that 
someone has registered the domain name, but, has not set up web hosting 
for it, so, the domain name is registered, but, the person who 
registered it, has not set up a web site for it.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#272307

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On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 08:51:15PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> On 19/8/24 16:11, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
> > > First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name
> > > registration industry.
> > 
> > No need. We all stumble in the dark :-)

[...]

> I think that a simpler way of explaining What Tomas has said, is that
> someone has registered the domain name, but, has not set up web hosting for
> it, so, the domain name is registered, but, the person who registered it,
> has not set up a web site for it.

Even less than that: just a DNS record, i.e. some entry in the global
name database mapping the name to... anything (an IP address, another
name, a mail exchange, whatever).

You can reserve the name and postpone creating a DNS record for it.

As often, the Wikipedia [1] gives a good read on that.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS
-- 
t

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#272308

On 19/8/24 21:00, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 08:51:15PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
>> On 19/8/24 16:11, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
>>>> First of all, I apologize for my lack of knowledge about the domain name
>>>> registration industry.
>>>
>>> No need. We all stumble in the dark :-)
> 
> [...]
> 
>> I think that a simpler way of explaining What Tomas has said, is that
>> someone has registered the domain name, but, has not set up web hosting for
>> it, so, the domain name is registered, but, the person who registered it,
>> has not set up a web site for it.
> 
> Even less than that: just a DNS record, i.e. some entry in the global
> name database mapping the name to... anything (an IP address, another
> name, a mail exchange, whatever).
> 
> You can reserve the name and postpone creating a DNS record for it.
> 
> As often, the Wikipedia [1] gives a good read on that.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS


As a person who has a few web sites, the first step, is registering the 
domain name, then, the second step, is obtaining web hosting. Upon the 
obtaining of the web hosting, DNS addresses (the IP numbers for the DNS 
servers) (for, usually, each of the primary server and secondary 
server), are then allocated. In the absence of obtaining web hosting, no 
DNS server is allocated.

That is from my experience.

Your experience may be different.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#272310

Bret Busby wrote: 
> On 19/8/24 21:00, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > Even less than that: just a DNS record, i.e. some entry in the global
> > name database mapping the name to... anything (an IP address, another
> > name, a mail exchange, whatever).
> > 
> > You can reserve the name and postpone creating a DNS record for it.
> > 
> > As often, the Wikipedia [1] gives a good read on that.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS
> 
> 
> As a person who has a few web sites, the first step, is registering the
> domain name, then, the second step, is obtaining web hosting. Upon the
> obtaining of the web hosting, DNS addresses (the IP numbers for the DNS
> servers) (for, usually, each of the primary server and secondary server),
> are then allocated. In the absence of obtaining web hosting, no DNS server
> is allocated.
> 
> That is from my experience.
> 
> Your experience may be different.

That's because you are purchasing a bundle of services from one
company.

These things are all available separately:

- domain name registration (annual fee) - establishes the name
  of busby.net and points it at one or more name servers

- domain name service (can be self-hosted, or provided through a
  free or paid service, or a combination) - maintains and
  updates records for www.busby.net, mail.busby.net, etc. to
  translate names into IP addresses.

- mail service (can be self-hosted or otherwise)

- basic web hosting (same)

and whatever else you'd like.

-dsr-

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#272311

On 19 Aug 2024 09:45 -0400, from dsr@randomstring.org (Dan Ritter):
>> As a person who has a few web sites, the first step, is registering the
>> domain name, then, the second step, is obtaining web hosting. Upon the
>> obtaining of the web hosting, DNS addresses (the IP numbers for the DNS
>> servers) (for, usually, each of the primary server and secondary server),
>> are then allocated. In the absence of obtaining web hosting, no DNS server
>> is allocated.
> 
> That's because you are purchasing a bundle of services from one
> company.
> 
> These things are all available separately:

And of course, just because you have a domain name doesn't mean you
must host a web site on or under it.

The Internet is more than only the Web.

-- 
Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

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#272315

Hi,

TL;DR: I too find it a little odd that whois says this domain is reserved but
querying the DNS shows that it isn't there at all as I would
usually expect just the NS records to be present in the containing
zone. I can only assume that this registrar allows for registered
zones to not be published at all if one wishes. The whois is
authoritative for what is available to register; the DNS is
authoritative for what you can globally query.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
> This is the dns info from registry nameserver:

In future it would help if you showed what actual query you are
doing with "dig". From the output I can piece together that you did
something like:

$ dig datafarm.net

or

$ dig -t s datafarm.net

but assuming that indeed is what you did, it does not actually "ask
the registry nameserver".

We can see from your output that you got a response from:

> ;; SERVER: 10.160.0.1#53(10.160.0.1)

which is probably a resolver on your local network. So that answer
you got may have been from cache.

We can see from your output that you ended up (either implicitly or
explicitly) asking for an A query:

> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> ;datafarm.net.			IN	A

However the best record to use when trying to see if a domain exists
i*in DNS* is an SOA ("Start of Authority"). It should show where the
domain delegation happens. It's basically the details for the DNS
zone.

By asking for an A record you run the risk of getting an empty
answer just because that record type doesn't exist. There is after
all no particular reason for an A record to exist for the root of a
domain that is registered. There is no reason why the only record in
that zone might not be

just.to.annoy.wesley.datafarm.net.

in which case there would be no A record for datafarm.net.

But! Here a technicality of DNS that does come to our aid anyway.
NXDOMAIN is for when the name does not exist at all. If the name
xists but the record type you queried for does not exist, you would
expect to get a NOERROR response but with zero results.

So you have in fact determined that datafarm.net doesn't exist in
(your) DNS, though perhaps not in the ideal way. There is still the
issue that you queried your (?) resolver so the answer could be
coming from cache.

Your use of whois confirms that this domain is registered and like
you I would expect all registered domains to create NS records in
the parent zone. whois tells us that this domain's nameservers are:

Name Server: ns1.mclink-net.it
Name Server: ns2.mclink-net.it

so in the .net zone I would expect NS records like this to exist:

datafarm IN NS ns1.mclink-net.it.
datafarm IN NS ns2.mclink-net.it.

They don't though, which is puzzling to me. Perhaps there is a
registrar option to not publish the zone until ready or something.
Anyway, this can be verified by asking the nameservers that are
authoritative for the .net zone:

$ dig +short -t ns net.
h.gtld-servers.net.
k.gtld-servers.net.
b.gtld-servers.net.
c.gtld-servers.net.
i.gtld-servers.net.
m.gtld-servers.net.
e.gtld-servers.net.
g.gtld-servers.net.
f.gtld-servers.net.
j.gtld-servers.net.
a.gtld-servers.net.
d.gtld-servers.net.
l.gtld-servers.net.

Ask any of those by directing the query with '@':

$ dig +norecurse -t ns datafarm.net @h.gtld-servers.net.

; <<>> DiG 9.16.50-Debian <<>> -t ns datafarm.net @h.gtld-servers.net.
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 25538
;; flags: qr aa; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1

;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION:
; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096
;; QUESTION SECTION:
;datafarm.net.                  IN      NS

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
net.                    900     IN      SOA     a.gtld-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 1724083355 1800 900 604800 86400

;; Query time: 20 msec
;; SERVER: 2001:502:8cc::30#53(2001:502:8cc::30)
;; WHEN: Mon Aug 19 16:02:43 UTC 2024
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 114

Note NXDOMAIN - so no name at all for "datafarm" exists within "net.". "aa"
flag says that this is an authoritative answer (not froma  cache) and
"AUTHORITY SECTION" says what this server we queried is authoritative for, in
this case "net." zone. So this is an authoritative answer from
h.gtld-servers.net that no such name "datafarm" exists in "net.".

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#272316

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On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 04:35:34PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> TL;DR: I too find it a little odd that whois says this domain is reserved but
> querying the DNS shows that it isn't there at all as I would
> usually expect just the NS records to be present in the containing
> zone. I can only assume that this registrar allows for registered
> zones to not be published at all if one wishes. The whois is
> authoritative for what is available to register; the DNS is
> authoritative for what you can globally query.

There is no obligation to provide a working name server or serve DNS for a
domain name.  DNS and name registration are separate.

If you want to know if a domain name is available, try to buy it, or
try to do a whois on it, but I have found that not all TLDs support whois.

But beware... I have seen cases where I have tried to buy a domain
and then a short while later, someone else buys it!  There is a way to
look at who is querying domains even if they don't resolve.

Michael Grant

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#272319

Hi,

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 12:46:43PM -0400, Michael Grant wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 04:35:34PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> > TL;DR: I too find it a little odd that whois says this domain is reserved but
> > querying the DNS shows that it isn't there at all as I would
> > usually expect just the NS records to be present in the containing
> > zone. I can only assume that this registrar allows for registered
> > zones to not be published at all if one wishes. The whois is
> > authoritative for what is available to register; the DNS is
> > authoritative for what you can globally query.
> 
> There is no obligation to provide a working name server or serve DNS for a
> domain name.  DNS and name registration are separate.

That's not what I'm talking about. When you register a domain you
have to provide nameservers for it, and while it is true that you do
not need to actually run nameserver software on those nameservers¹,
the parent zone does need to add a delegation before anything will
work.

I find it odd that the parent zone (.net) has no delegation for this
domain, but perhaps that is a registrar option that I have not
noticed before. It has already been pointed out that if the
intention is to use the domain internally then technically no
delegation needs to be made. Though again I find it odd that the
registrar bothers to say what the nameservers are in that case.

Thanks,
Andy

¹ Though there are some zone operators that actually check to see if
  your proposed nameservers answer correctly for the domain you're
  adding before they will add the delegation.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#272325

On 2024-08-20 00:35, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> TL;DR: I too find it a little odd that whois says this domain is 
> reserved but
> querying the DNS shows that it isn't there at all as I would
> usually expect just the NS records to be present in the containing
> zone. I can only assume that this registrar allows for registered
> zones to not be published at all if one wishes. The whois is
> authoritative for what is available to register; the DNS is
> authoritative for what you can globally query.
> 
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 03:49:11PM +0800, Wesley wrote:
>> This is the dns info from registry nameserver:
> 
> In future it would help if you showed what actual query you are
> doing with "dig". From the output I can piece together that you did
> something like:
> 
> $ dig datafarm.net
> 
> or
> 
> $ dig -t s datafarm.net
> 
> but assuming that indeed is what you did, it does not actually "ask
> the registry nameserver".
> 
> We can see from your output that you got a response from:
> 
>> ;; SERVER: 10.160.0.1#53(10.160.0.1)
> 
> which is probably a resolver on your local network. So that answer
> you got may have been from cache.
> 
> We can see from your output that you ended up (either implicitly or
> explicitly) asking for an A query:
> 
>> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
>> ;datafarm.net.			IN	A
> 
> However the best record to use when trying to see if a domain exists
> i*in DNS* is an SOA ("Start of Authority"). It should show where the
> domain delegation happens. It's basically the details for the DNS
> zone.
> 

Andy

The dig from com's nameservers got nxdomain as well. As you see here,

$ dig datafarm.net @a.gtld-servers.net

; <<>> DiG 9.18.18-0ubuntu0.22.04.1-Ubuntu <<>> datafarm.net 
@a.gtld-servers.net
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 45385
;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1
;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available

;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION:
; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096
;; QUESTION SECTION:
;datafarm.net.			IN	A

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
net.			900	IN	SOA	a.gtld-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 1724107985 
1800 900 604800 86400

;; Query time: 7 msec
;; SERVER: 2001:503:a83e::2:30#53(a.gtld-servers.net) (UDP)
;; WHEN: Tue Aug 20 06:53:27 HKT 2024
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 114


nxdomain means this domain (zone) not existing, whether it's A record or 
the zone itself. if the zone exists but lacks A record, the status 
should be 'NOERROR'.

What confused me is that since domain is registered in the registrar, 
they should put a glue in com's nameservers. hence com nameserver would 
not return 'nxdomain' but a reference instead.

BTW, I found there are many cases like the domain 'datafarm.net'. for 
example, 'netfirm.net' behaves the same.

Thank you.

-- 
https://wespeng.pages.dev/

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#272326

Hi,

On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 07:01:53AM +0800, Wesley wrote:
> The dig from com's nameservers got nxdomain as well. As you see here,

You appear to have not read my email in full as everything you point
out in your reply was already stated in my reply to you. Even the
TL;DR: I put at the top, fearing that my email was too long, agrees
with you.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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