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where is mail.log

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  where is mail.log Bitfox <hi@bitfox.ddns.net> - 2024-11-29 01:10 +0100
    Re: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-11-29 01:20 +0100
      Re: where is mail.log "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-11-29 21:20 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-11-29 21:30 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-11-29 22:30 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2024-11-30 14:40 +0100
            Re: where is mail.log "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-11-30 23:30 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-12-03 04:10 +0100
            Re: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-12-03 04:20 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-12-03 10:30 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-29 21:50 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log pocket@homemail.com - 2024-11-29 22:40 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-30 07:40 +0100
            Re: where is mail.log Bitfox <bitfox@secubox.org> - 2024-11-30 13:40 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log Scott Andrews <pocket@homemail.com> - 2024-11-30 14:00 +0100
                Re: where is mail.log Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> - 2024-11-30 15:10 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-30 14:30 +0100
              Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd; was: where is mail.log Michael Kjörling <c9bc136c6063@ewoof.net> - 2024-11-30 14:30 +0100
                Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd; was: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-11-30 15:10 +0100
                  Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd Michael Kjörling <c9bc136c6063@ewoof.net> - 2024-11-30 16:50 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2024-11-30 14:50 +0100
            Re: where is mail.log pocket@homemail.com - 2024-11-30 13:40 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-30 18:00 +0100
                Re: where is mail.log Scott Andrews <pocket@homemail.com> - 2024-11-30 18:40 +0100
                  Re: where is mail.log <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-30 19:00 +0100
                    Re: where is mail.log pocket@homemail.com - 2024-11-30 19:20 +0100
                      Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-30 19:30 +0100
                      Re: where is mail.log <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-30 19:30 +0100
                      Re: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-11-30 19:40 +0100
                        Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-30 20:00 +0100
                          Re: where is mail.log <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-30 20:20 +0100
                            Re: where is mail.log and the changing Linux ecosystem George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-01 01:10 +0100
                              Re: where is mail.log and the changing Linux ecosystem Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-12-01 01:20 +0100
                                Re: where is mail.log and the changing Linux ecosystem George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-01 01:30 +0100
                                Re: where is mail.log and the changing Linux ecosystem <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-12-01 07:20 +0100
                          Re: where is mail.log Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 17:30 +0100
                        Re: where is mail.log Scott Andrews <pocket@homemail.com> - 2024-11-30 20:00 +0100
                  Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-30 19:10 +0100
              Re: where is mail.log Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-12-02 13:10 +0100
    Re: where is mail.log Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-11-29 01:40 +0100
      Re: where is mail.log Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-11-29 03:10 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log Bitfox <hi@bitfox.ddns.net> - 2024-11-29 05:10 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log Bitfox <hi@bitfox.ddns.net> - 2024-11-29 11:40 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-30 13:30 +0100
    Re: where is mail.log George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-29 03:50 +0100
    Re: where is mail.log Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2024-12-02 12:50 +0100
      Re: where is mail.log Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2024-12-02 13:10 +0100
        Re: where is mail.log Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-12-02 16:10 +0100
          Re: where is mail.log Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2024-12-03 11:20 +0100

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#274975 — where is mail.log

My OS is debian 12 without GUI.

After I installed postifx by apt, I can't find the path to mail.log.

the log file in /var/log doesn't exist.

do you know where is my mail.log now?

Thanks.

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#274976

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 08:07:20 +0800, Bitfox wrote:
> After I installed postifx by apt, I can't find the path to mail.log.
> 
> the log file in /var/log doesn't exist.
> 
> do you know where is my mail.log now?

Install the rsyslog package also.  This will give you traditional,
human-readable log files in /var/log/.

Without that package, all of your logs live in systemd's journal.
You should be able to find them there, with some effort, but many
people (including me) prefer to have text files in /var/log/.

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#274993

On Thursday 28 November 2024 07:15:48 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 08:07:20 +0800, Bitfox wrote:
> > After I installed postifx by apt, I can't find the path to mail.log.
> > 
> > the log file in /var/log doesn't exist.
> > 
> > do you know where is my mail.log now?
> 
> Install the rsyslog package also.  This will give you traditional,
> human-readable log files in /var/log/.
> 
> Without that package, all of your logs live in systemd's journal.
> You should be able to find them there, with some effort, but many
> people (including me) prefer to have text files in /var/log/.
> 
> 

What's gained by them having changed this?  (I wonder that about a lot of stuff.)

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#274994

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 15:13:24 -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Thursday 28 November 2024 07:15:48 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Install the rsyslog package also.  This will give you traditional,
> > human-readable log files in /var/log/.
> > 
> > Without that package, all of your logs live in systemd's journal.
> > You should be able to find them there, with some effort, but many
> > people (including me) prefer to have text files in /var/log/.
> 
> What's gained by them having changed this?  (I wonder that about a lot of stuff.)

My understanding is that the systemd journal Is Not Going Away And Tough
Nuts To You If You Don't Like It.  With that in mind, the human-readable
log files were considered redundant, and removing rsyslog from the
default package set reduces "wasted" disk space storing two copies of
the same logs.

Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
knows the answer to this.

So, I would advise not bothering to ask here.

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#274996

On 11/29/24 15:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 15:13:24 -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
>> On Thursday 28 November 2024 07:15:48 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>> Install the rsyslog package also.  This will give you traditional,
>>> human-readable log files in /var/log/.
>>>
>>> Without that package, all of your logs live in systemd's journal.
>>> You should be able to find them there, with some effort, but many
>>> people (including me) prefer to have text files in /var/log/.
>>
>> What's gained by them having changed this?  (I wonder that about a lot of stuff.)
> 
> My understanding is that the systemd journal Is Not Going Away And Tough
> Nuts To You If You Don't Like It.  With that in mind, the human-readable
> log files were considered redundant, and removing rsyslog from the
> default package set reduces "wasted" disk space storing two copies of
> the same logs.
> 
> Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
> over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
> knows the answer to this.
> 
> So, I would advise not bothering to ask here.

We are of like minds on this Greg.

I let synaptic update what I thought was just ghostscript about 2 weeks 
back, but by the time it was done I had lost the two brother printers I 
have, and had to use brothers installer scripts to renew the Brother 
drivers from Brothers own repositories. Then they worked again to their 
full capabilities as advertised on the box.

Why must there be a constant war between a companies products that 
supports their own printers on linux systems?  This isn't Epson or Canon 
who spits on linux every time they make a new printer or scanner, this 
is Brother, who _does_ /fully support/ their product on linux. Stop it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#275015

Greg Wooledge (12024-11-29):
> Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
> over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
> knows the answer to this.

The answer is certainly the same as for the rest of systemd: the old
system had terrible flaws and needed to be replaced, and while the Libre
Software developers were busy arguing each for their pet project that
fixes about half the flaws while ignoring the other half or even
pretending they are features, the industrial bulldozer of Red Hat
arrived with systemd, that not so much fixed all the flaws as made them
irrelevant by the virtue of replacing the board of snakes and ladders
with a board of hungry hungry hippos with its own different set of
flaws, but at least that more or less worked out of the box.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#275059

On Saturday 30 November 2024 08:37:03 am Nicolas George wrote:
> Greg Wooledge (12024-11-29):
> > Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
> > over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
> > knows the answer to this.
> 
> The answer is certainly the same as for the rest of systemd: the old
> system had terrible flaws and needed to be replaced, and while the Libre
> Software developers were busy arguing each for their pet project that
> fixes about half the flaws while ignoring the other half or even
> pretending they are features, the industrial bulldozer of Red Hat
> arrived with systemd, that not so much fixed all the flaws as made them
> irrelevant by the virtue of replacing the board of snakes and ladders
> with a board of hungry hungry hippos with its own different set of
> flaws, but at least that more or less worked out of the box.
> 
> Regards,
> 

Ah.  Now we know who to blame for it...   :-)


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#275169

On 30/11/2024 03:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
> over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
> knows the answer to this.

<https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemctl-journal.html>
systemd for Administrators, Part XIII
Posted on Fr 18 Mai 2012
Log and Service Status

> The original reason we started to work on the journal was one specific
> feature idea, that to the outsider might appear simple but without the
> journal is difficult and inefficient to implement: along with the output
> of systemctl status we wanted to show the last 10 log messages of the
> daemon.

I could not recall where I saw a more verbose description of design 
ideas. Perhaps faster selection of records within a given time range.

Journald&journalctl have their shortcomings, but often they are more 
convenient during debugging: more precise timestamps, filtering by all 
processes from a service cgroup.

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#275170

On Tue, Dec 03, 2024 at 10:00:27 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> <https://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemctl-journal.html>
> systemd for Administrators, Part XIII
> Posted on Fr 18 Mai 2012
> Log and Service Status
> 
> > The original reason we started to work on the journal was one specific
> > feature idea, that to the outsider might appear simple but without the
> > journal is difficult and inefficient to implement: along with the output
> > of systemctl status we wanted to show the last 10 log messages of the
> > daemon.
> 
> I could not recall where I saw a more verbose description of design ideas.
> Perhaps faster selection of records within a given time range.
> 
> Journald&journalctl have their shortcomings, but often they are more
> convenient during debugging: more precise timestamps, filtering by all
> processes from a service cgroup.

Separate logs per service aren't a new idea.  Service managers that
came before systemd (e.g. daemontools) were doing that already.  And
you don't need *binary* files to achieve it.

However, my comment wasn't about systemd's design choices.  It was
about Debian's choices.

> On 30/11/2024 03:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Now, you might ask why the systemd journal is being preferred and kept
> > over human-readable log files.  I don't think anyone on debian-user
> > knows the answer to this.

What I don't know, and don't think anyone on this list knows, is why
*Debian* chose to toss the human-readable separate text log files away
in favor of the systemd monolithic binary journal.

Anyway, this is all academic at this point.  We know what Debian chose,
and we know how to make our own choices, if we want something else.

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#275176

On Tue Dec 3, 2024 at 3:11 AM GMT, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> What I don't know, and don't think anyone on this list knows, is why
> *Debian* chose to toss the human-readable separate text log files away
> in favor of the systemd monolithic binary journal.

The bug that documents rsyslog moving from priority: 'important' to
to 'optional' (which I think must have been the change which resulted
in rsyslog not being installed by default from Bookworm onwards) is 
<https://bugs.debian.org/1018788>. 

The rationale offered there is "I want to avoid that log data is stored 
twice on disk."

The bug also references an earlier 2021 thread on debian-devel@:
<https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/11/msg00179.html>. That 
thread did not attract much discussion, IMHO.


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#274995

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 03:13:24PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> What's gained by them having changed this?  (I wonder that about a lot of stuff.)

Most people don't need anything but the journal and if they do it's work
of seconds to install rsyslogd (and I do), as seen in this thread.
Defaults change and not all defaults will reflect my preferences.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#274997

> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2024 at 3:13 PM
> From: "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: where is mail.log
>
> On Thursday 28 November 2024 07:15:48 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 08:07:20 +0800, Bitfox wrote:
> > > After I installed postifx by apt, I can't find the path to mail.log.
> > >
> > > the log file in /var/log doesn't exist.
> > >
> > > do you know where is my mail.log now?
> >
> > Install the rsyslog package also.  This will give you traditional,
> > human-readable log files in /var/log/.
> >
> > Without that package, all of your logs live in systemd's journal.
> > You should be able to find them there, with some effort, but many
> > people (including me) prefer to have text files in /var/log/.
> >
> >
>
> What's gained by them having changed this?  (I wonder that about a lot of stuff.)

Because systemd is the init system on most all distributions.
Get used to it.
Debian will need to massively need to change their ways, as the init scripts are not supported by systemd anymore.

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#275003

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 10:36:50PM +0100, pocket@homemail.com wrote:

[...]

> Because systemd is the init system on most all distributions.

It's the default, though, which is fine. That said, you can still
use SysV instead. Some assembly needed.

> Get used to it.

Or apply some assembly.

> Debian will need to massively need to change their ways, as the init scripts are not supported by systemd anymore.

But still by SysV...

Cheers
-- 
t

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#275008

On 2024-11-30 20:31, pocket@homemail.com wrote:

>> 
> 
> You did not comprehend what I posted.  I am on the systemd mail list.
> They have dropped all sysV support.

May I ask what's the main difference between systemd and sysv for init 
system?

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#275010

> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2024 at 7:33 AM
> From: "Bitfox" <bitfox@secubox.org>
> To: pocket@homemail.com
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: where is mail.log
>
> On 2024-11-30 20:31, pocket@homemail.com wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> > You did not comprehend what I posted.  I am on the systemd mail list.
> > They have dropped all sysV support.
>
> May I ask what's the main difference between systemd and sysv for init
> system?
>

It is the same as day and nite

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#275018

On 11/30/24 6:55 AM, Scott Andrews wrote:
> 
> 
>> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2024 at 7:33 AM
>> From: "Bitfox" <bitfox@secubox.org>
>> To: pocket@homemail.com
>> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>> Subject: Re: where is mail.log
>>
>> On 2024-11-30 20:31, pocket@homemail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You did not comprehend what I posted.  I am on the systemd mail list.
>>> They have dropped all sysV support.
>>
>> May I ask what's the main difference between systemd and sysv for init
>> system?
>>
> 
> It is the same as day and nite
> 
> 

A better comparison might be gas versus diesel.
End user doesn't see much difference in routine.
*MAJOR* difference when time comes time to refuel or repair.

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#275013

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 08:33:34PM +0800, Bitfox wrote:
> On 2024-11-30 20:31, pocket@homemail.com wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > 
> > You did not comprehend what I posted.  I am on the systemd mail list.
> > They have dropped all sysV support.
> 
> May I ask what's the main difference between systemd and sysv for init
> system?

This would be a very long answer. I'd recommend you start reading the
Wikipedia entry on "init system" [1] to get a rough idea.

Init systems organize the start of a Unix/Linux-type system after the
kernel has booted. Usually the kernel starts a first process (which
typically gets the process ID (PID) 1, which starts everything else
the system needs to get into a useful state.

Very roughly speaking, SysV init consults a bunch of shell scripts
which reside in /etc/init.d to know what is to be started in which
order, whereas systemd has a bunch of files stating which services
depend on which others and starts them whenever they are needed.

Lots and lots of details (like socket activation with systemd) are
missing in the rough description above, of course.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Init_system
-- 
tomás

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#275014 — Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd; was: where is mail.log

On 30 Nov 2024 20:33 +0800, from bitfox@secubox.org (Bitfox):
> May I ask what's the main difference between systemd and sysv for init
> system?

I think it's fair to say that systemd does a great deal more, as well
as that it brings things into the init system which have traditionally
been done by separate pieces of software.

SysV init is primarily a way to manage automated start and stop of
services at runlevel changes, by executing a series of programs placed
in magic directories (/etc/rc?.d) with specific parameters; and does
very little else. Things like recovering from service failures,
dependency management, etc. are up to those scripts (or the system
administrator).

Whereas systemd aims to be more of a system _management_ tool;
bringing in system log storage, time synchronization, file system and
service dependency management, on-demand service startup, network
management, and a great deal more.

A lot of people have very strong opinions about this.

_From a user perspective_, there's actually not all that much
difference: to get to a usable, running system, both systemd and
sysvinit must accomplish roughly the same things and start the same
services; and to interrogate the state of the running system, the
administrator must do roughly the same things. The difference here is
in _how_ this is accomplished and exactly which software is used for
each part of it. Compatibility shims have also existed for a long
time, and nothing really prevents for example a distribution from
packaging /etc/init.d/* scripts which are wrappers around the
corresponding systemctl commands on a systemd system.

For example, whereas on a more traditional sysvinit system using
traditional text-based log files, you might use something like

# awk '{ if($5 ~ "^postfix[[]") { print } }' </var/log/messages

on a systemd system you'd use, to roughly the same effect

# journalctl --no-pager --all -u postfix

(where -u xx can alternatively be written --unit=xx)

and to restart a service, instead of SysV init's

# /etc/init.d/postfix restart

one might do

# systemctl restart postfix

-- 
Michael Kjörling
🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se

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#275017 — Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd; was: where is mail.log

On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 13:03:32 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> # awk '{ if($5 ~ "^postfix[[]") { print } }' </var/log/messages

That's a rather verbose way of writing that awk command.

    awk '$5 ~ "^postfix[[]"' /var/log/messages

Also, I'm quite new to postfix, but this pattern doesn't appear to match
any lines in my log files.  First of all, the lines in question seem to
be in /var/log/syslog on Debian 10, not in messages.  Second, they all
look like:

    Nov 30 08:43:08 remote postfix/smtpd[5243]: connect from bendel.debian.org[82.195.75.100]

and so on, with postfix followed by a slash, not a square bracket.
Maybe your system is different, and therefore your logs are different.
This is actually an endorsement for the systemd journal, where the
lines in question are identified precisely by the unit/service name,
and don't need to be matched by a questionable regular expression.

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#275024 — Re: differences between sysvinit and systemd

On 30 Nov 2024 08:53 -0500, from greg@wooledge.org (Greg Wooledge):
>> # awk '{ if($5 ~ "^postfix[[]") { print } }' </var/log/messages
> 
> That's a rather verbose way of writing that awk command.
> 
>     awk '$5 ~ "^postfix[[]"' /var/log/messages
> 
> Also, I'm quite new to postfix, but this pattern doesn't appear to match
> any lines in my log files.  First of all, the lines in question seem to
> be in /var/log/syslog on Debian 10, not in messages.  Second, they all
> look like:
> 
>     Nov 30 08:43:08 remote postfix/smtpd[5243]: connect from bendel.debian.org[82.195.75.100]
> 
> and so on, with postfix followed by a slash, not a square bracket.

So let me specifically highlight the "you might use something like"
and "to roughly the same effect" relating to that example in my
earlier post. What I wrote was not intended as a ready-to-use
exact-equivalence one-or-the-other, but as an _illustrative example_.
There are other differences between the two as well; one example of
such a difference is how they handle log rotation, which is largely a
non-issue with systemd + journalctl for the duration of log retention
but requires particular care with *syslogd especially if log rotation
also compresses old logs (as is typical), whereas passing journalctl
--no-pager --all might not be typical but replicates the style of
output from the awk example when run from an interactive terminal.

-- 
Michael Kjörling
🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se

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