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Groups > linux.debian.user > #270113 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2024-06-16 10:20 +0200 |
| Last post | 2024-06-17 11:00 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 125 — 25 participants |
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Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 10:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Richard <rrosner5@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 15:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-16 16:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-17 13:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-18 13:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 16:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 16:30 +0200
Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 17:40 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 17:50 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-17 19:30 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:10 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 18:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 19:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 19:50 +0200
System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-18 07:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-18 10:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 10:20 +0200
RTC, was Re: System time/timezone David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 21:20 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-19 21:40 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:20 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2024-06-20 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-19 06:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-18 13:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-19 13:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 19:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-20 07:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 07:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file tomas@tuxteam.de - 2024-06-20 08:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-21 04:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-21 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-21 06:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-22 18:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 04:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 07:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-23 08:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-23 15:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-23 16:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-26 15:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-24 15:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-24 15:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-06-24 17:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Heriberto Avelino <heriberto.avelino@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 00:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-06-24 17:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-24 18:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-24 18:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-25 00:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-25 00:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-25 00:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-25 10:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-26 12:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-26 18:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-26 19:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-28 06:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Erwan DAVID <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2024-06-28 07:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2024-06-28 08:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 11:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2024-06-30 03:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-06-25 20:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 21:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 03:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-23 14:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-24 02:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-23 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-21 13:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 18:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 07:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-21 06:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 05:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-22 07:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-22 17:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 04:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 05:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-23 21:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-17 17:00 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 17:10 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:20 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 16:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 13:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-20 13:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-20 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 16:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-21 06:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 16:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 18:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 10:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 13:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-25 14:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 15:00 +0200
Australia/Eucla timezone abbreviation (was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file) Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 17:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 06:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 11:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 14:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 14:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 17:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 11:00 +0200
Page 2 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-18 07:00 +0200 |
| Subject | System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQz6N-3JC2-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270179 |
On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 18:22:29 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > >
> > > > You asked after your /system/ clock. [ … ]
> > > > [ … ] /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> > > > $ date says what your user is on.
> > >
> > > No: /etc/timezone just says what time zone a _user_ will "get" unless
> > > they state otherwise. I.e. a user's default time zone.
> > >
> > > The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
> > > doesn't make sense.
> >
> > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
> > processes [...]
>
> Right you are.
So it comes down to nomenclature.
What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?
It's fine to say that the linux kernel is counting seconds since the
epoch, and doesn't have need of a timezone (ignoring UTC and TAI for
the moment), but there are many processes already running as root, and
they have timezones (hopefully one and the same).
You seem to be telling me that "system timezone" isn't the correct
collective noun for all these processes' timezone.
Saying it's the contents of /etc/timezone is now a legacy concept,
but at least it's less cumbersome than saying it's the name of the
file in /usr/share/zoneinfo/ that's the target of /etc/localtime.
It's fine for systemd to call it "Local time" in the context below,
but it's certainly /not/ the local timezone in KS, where it's nearly
midnight.
$ date; timedatectl status
Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000)
System clock synchronized: yes
NTP service: active
RTC in local TZ: no
$
I notice that man timedatectl says:
set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
Set the system time zone to the specified value.
Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
information.
Cheers,
David.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-18 10:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQC4F-3LD3-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270195 |
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On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: [...] > > > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for > > > processes [...] > > > > Right you are. > > So it comes down to nomenclature. > > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > no users are logged in? [...] Most processes don't need one. When they display datetimes to a user timezone becomes relevant. > $ date; timedatectl status > Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024 > Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 > Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000) > System clock synchronized: yes > NTP service: active > RTC in local TZ: no > $ > > I notice that man timedatectl says: > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > Set the system time zone to the specified value. > Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones. > If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this > will also update the RTC time. This call will alter > the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more > information. I cringe a bit when I see that. Cheers -- t
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-18 10:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQCel-3LGg-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270199 |
On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:05 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > [...] > > $ date; timedatectl status > > Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024 > > Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > > Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > > RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 > > Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000) > > System clock synchronized: yes > > NTP service: active > > RTC in local TZ: no > > $ > > > > I notice that man timedatectl says: > > > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > > Set the system time zone to the specified value. > > Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones. > > If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this > > will also update the RTC time. This call will alter > > the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more > > information. > > I cringe a bit when I see that. Yeah.. on Linux, it is recommended to keep the RTC clock in UTC. Unless Windows has contaminated the machine. See <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. Jeff
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200 |
| Subject | RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IQUNX-3WZK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270200 |
On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 04:12:07 (-0400), Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:05 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > [...] > > > I notice that man timedatectl says: > > > > > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > > > Set the system time zone to the specified value. > > > Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones. > > > If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this > > > will also update the RTC time. This call will alter > > > the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more > > > information. > > > > I cringe a bit when I see that. > > Yeah.. on Linux, it is recommended to keep the RTC clock in UTC. > Unless Windows has contaminated the machine. See > <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. Here's your subthread for discussing the RTC, as it's a separate issue from the system's time zone. (I believe I'm correct in saying that Windows has long been able, by means of a registry key setting, to run with the RTC set to UTC.) Cheers, David.
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| From | Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 21:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IR90B-477y-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270238 |
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On Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 11:05 PM David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 04:12:07 (-0400), Jeffrey Walton wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:05 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > I notice that man timedatectl says: > > > > > > > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > > > > Set the system time zone to the specified value. > > > > Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones. > > > > If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this > > > > will also update the RTC time. This call will alter > > > > the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more > > > > information. > > > > > > I cringe a bit when I see that. > > > > Yeah.. on Linux, it is recommended to keep the RTC clock in UTC. > > Unless Windows has contaminated the machine. See > > <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. > > Here's your subthread for discussing the RTC, as it's a separate > issue from the system's time zone. > Reading the link that Walton sent, the only case where RTC clock in UTC is recommended is in the linux/windows dual-boot case. There's no statement that RTC should be set to UTC besides that. And they say right there why it isn't mentioned: your Debian machine might move around geographically. But if it doesnt.... Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So in my experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to local time. That's been on Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu. (I believe I'm correct in saying that Windows has long been able, > by means of a registry key setting, to run with the RTC set to UTC.) > That is also my understanding but Windows 95 is the last release I've been an admin on. Cheers, > David. > >
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 21:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IR9jY-47eg-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270267 |
On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 14:16:14 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > > > <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. > > Reading the link that Walton sent, the only case where RTC clock in UTC is > recommended is in the linux/windows dual-boot case. There's no statement > that RTC should be set to UTC besides that. And they say right there why it > isn't mentioned: your Debian machine might move around geographically. But > if it doesnt.... > > Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So in my > experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to local time. > That's been on Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu. If your system only boots one operating system, and never changes its default time zone, then it makes no difference whether the RTC is set to UTC or local time. The OS will use the same assumptions when reading and writing to the RTC, so everything will remain correct. If you boot multiple operating systems, or if you ever change your default time zone, then keeping the RTC in UTC gives you a much better chance of things remaining correct. And of course, if your system is configured to retrieve the correct time from NTP servers immediately after booting, then the RTC's contents don't really matter much in the first place. You'd only "use" the RTC for the brief time between boot and NTP synchronization, or if for some reason you can't reach your NTP servers (Internet is down or whatever).
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IRffH-4aTi-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270269 |
> If your system only boots one operating system, and never changes its
> default time zone, then it makes no difference whether the RTC is set
> to UTC or local time. The OS will use the same assumptions when reading
> and writing to the RTC, so everything will remain correct.
Of course, the famous exception is if your machine is OFF during the
switch to/from DST. IIUC there are hacks in Windows to try and handle
it "correctly", but I believe they can also misfire in some cases.
Don't know if GNU/Linux bothers with it: it's just a lot simpler and
more sane to use UTC so you never need to worry about it.
And of course, NTP is your friend: several of my machines don't even
have an RTC and I haven't really felt like they are missing something.
Stefan
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| From | Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IRffI-4aTi-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270267 |
On 20/06/2024 02:16, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So in > my experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to local > time. That's been on Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu. My experience with Ubuntu is that its installer is able to guess timezone (GeoIP?) and it properly sets /etc/localtime symlink while RTC is in UTC. Try "timedatectl" or hwclock. Setting RTC to local time increases a chance of some mess due to DST or an administrative time jump.
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| From | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-22 10:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IS48x-4HfN-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270279 |
On 20/6/24 11:51, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 20/06/2024 02:16, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: >> Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So >> in my experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to >> local time. That's been on Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu. > > My experience with Ubuntu is that its installer is able to guess > timezone (GeoIP?) and it properly sets /etc/localtime symlink while RTC > is in UTC. Try "timedatectl" or hwclock. Setting RTC to local time > increases a chance of some mess due to DST or an administrative time jump. > My experience is that most installers do pretty well at guessing where I am -- All the best Keith Bainbridge keithrbau@gmail.com keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com +61 (0)447 667 468 UTC + 10:00
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| From | Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 05:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone |
| Message-ID | <IRgbM-4bDn-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270267 |
On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 02:16:14PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: >Reading the link that Walton sent, the only case where RTC clock in UTC is >recommended is in the linux/windows dual-boot case. There's no statement that >RTC should be set to UTC besides that. And they say right there why it isn't >mentioned: your Debian machine might move around geographically. But if it >doesnt.... > >Servers in data centers don't move around, they just sit there :-) So in my >experience servers running anything non-windows have RTC set to local time. Which is great, except that for some reason we still have daylight saving time...which screws everything up. So the real answer is that keeping RTC in local time is great for servers which never move around and don't have DST *or never turn off*. In which case it doesn't really matter. Except for that corner case where it suddenly does, at which point you'll regret not having used UTC (which works reliably regardless of what the politicians have decided to do to local time, and regardless of how long a server has been turned off).
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQUNX-3WZK-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270199 |
On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 10:04:45 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > [...] > > > > > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for > > > > processes [...] > > > > > > Right you are. > > > > So it comes down to nomenclature. > > > > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > > no users are logged in? > > [...] > > Most processes don't need one. When they display datetimes to a user > timezone becomes relevant. … which, as well as ignoring the minority that do, doesn't give me an answer. > > $ date; timedatectl status > > Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024 > > Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > > Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC > > RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 > > Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +0000) > > System clock synchronized: yes > > NTP service: active > > RTC in local TZ: no > > $ > > > > I notice that man timedatectl says: > > > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > > Set the system time zone to the specified value. > > Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones. > > If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this > > will also update the RTC time. This call will alter > > the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more > > information. > > I cringe a bit when I see that. See what, exactly? I can see three things, potentially. Cheers, David.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 06:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQVgZ-3Xew-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270236 |
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On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 11:02:58PM -0500, David Wright wrote: [...] > > > set-timezone [TIMEZONE] > > > Set the system time zone [...] [...] > > I cringe a bit when I see that. > > See what, exactly? I can see three things, potentially. Especially that bit with the "system timezone". Reminds me of some remote past, where a system actually had a timezone (and changed its clock twice a year). Back then we used to set all our networked Windows boxen to a time zone without summer time change (ISTR it was Monrovia/Liberia) to avoid having our Makefiles freaking out twice a year. Cheers -- t
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-18 13:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQESR-3NjL-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270195 |
On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote: > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > no users are logged in? Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone). It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen this, but it could be done. Usually a daemon's time zone will only affect log messages that it writes. It's uncommon for a daemon process to use a time zone for anything other than timestamping messages. Of course, it depends on the individual daemon.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IQUNX-3WZK-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270209 |
On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote: > > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > > no users are logged in? > > Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one > specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone). > > It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use > a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen > this, but it could be done. In view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default", and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system clock it set to. > Usually a daemon's time zone will only affect log messages that it > writes. It's uncommon for a daemon process to use a time zone for > anything other than timestamping messages. Of course, it depends on > the individual daemon. Well, it's anything related to time, I suppose, like cron, systemd timers, clock displays, and so on. I just don't understand the idea of a computer not having a system time in a time zone. (And I'm leaving aside any connected devices, filesystems, etc that might handle times, but only in a single, local time.) Cheers, David.
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 13:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IR1mp-410r-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270235 |
On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 23:09:04 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > > > no users are logged in? > > > > Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one > > specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone). > > > > It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use > > a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen > > this, but it could be done. > > In view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default", > and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system > clock it set to. I strongly disagree. The system clock is kept on "epoch time", which is the number of seconds since midnight, January 1, 1970 UTC. The system clock doesn't have a time zone of its own. It just gets converted to a time and date within any given time zone on demand. Whatever process wants to perform such a conversion will either use UTC, or the system's default time zone, or a user-specified time zone. The date(1) command has the ability to do all three: hobbit:~$ date; date -u; TZ=Europe/Moscow date Wed Jun 19 07:06:00 EDT 2024 Wed Jun 19 11:06:00 UTC 2024 Wed Jun 19 14:06:00 MSK 2024 In order, those are the system's default time zone (America/New_York in my case), UTC, and a user-specified time zone. If you want the raw epoch time, it can do that as well: hobbit:~$ date +%s 1718795213 The epoch time does not change when you use the -u option or the TZ variable, either. It's independent of those.
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| From | Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-19 19:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IR6YO-45Ug-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270256 |
On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 7:09 AM Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 23:09:04 -0500, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and > > > > no users are logged in? > > > > > > Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one > > > specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone). > > > > > > It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use > > > a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC. I've never seen > > > this, but it could be done. > > > > In view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default", > > and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system > > clock it set to. > > I strongly disagree. The system clock is kept on "epoch time", which > is the number of seconds since midnight, January 1, 1970 UTC. > > The system clock doesn't have a time zone of its own. It just gets > converted to a time and date within any given time zone on demand. ++. The sharp edge is how the RTC clock is set - UTC or localtime. Also see <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. Jeff
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 07:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IRi3U-4cQA-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270261 |
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On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 01:01:44PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 7:09 AM Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote: [...] > > I strongly disagree. The system clock is kept on "epoch time", which > > is the number of seconds since midnight, January 1, 1970 UTC. > > > > The system clock doesn't have a time zone of its own. It just gets > > converted to a time and date within any given time zone on demand. > > ++. > > The sharp edge is how the RTC clock is set - UTC or localtime. Also > see <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. Please don't mix those three things, that makes them just more confusing. The original topic was the system's time zone. This hasn't anything to do with the RTC clock, and only peripherally with "the system's time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing", and others disagree :) You have - the RTC clock. This is *only* looked at at boot time, to init the system clock (and when you, as an admin, do "hwclock"). During those operations, it's important to know which timezone the RTC is in, since this one /is/ in "human format. It was intended to be read and set by humans, like your kitchen clock, back then. - the system clock: it boringly counts seconds. Since Epoch. Since it has't hours or minutes, let alone weeks or months, time zones don't even make sense to it. Sometimes it does a leap second, but experts are torn on whether this was a good idea at all. Have a look at [1] for an entrance to yet another deep time rabbit hole. - timezones and stuff: those happen whenever you want to convert the system clock to hours, minutes, days, and other human related stuff and back. (if you have good net connectivity, reading the RTC at boot can be shunned completely, you don't need it anymore). Please, keep those three at a safe distance. Cheers [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time -- tomás
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| From | Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 07:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IRiwV-4dgZ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270286 |
On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:52 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 01:01:44PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 7:09 AM Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote: > > [...] > > > > I strongly disagree. The system clock is kept on "epoch time", which > > > is the number of seconds since midnight, January 1, 1970 UTC. > > > > > > The system clock doesn't have a time zone of its own. It just gets > > > converted to a time and date within any given time zone on demand. > > > > ++. > > > > The sharp edge is how the RTC clock is set - UTC or localtime. Also > > see <https://wiki.debian.org/DateTime>. > > Please don't mix those three things, that makes them just more confusing. > > The original topic was the system's time zone. This hasn't anything > to do with the RTC clock, and only peripherally with "the system's > time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing", > and others disagree :) > > You have > > - the RTC clock. This is *only* looked at at boot time, to init > the system clock (and when you, as an admin, do "hwclock"). > During those operations, it's important to know which timezone > the RTC is in, since this one /is/ in "human format. It was > intended to be read and set by humans, like your kitchen clock, > back then. > > - the system clock: it boringly counts seconds. Since Epoch. > Since it has't hours or minutes, let alone weeks or months, > time zones don't even make sense to it. Sometimes it does > a leap second, but experts are torn on whether this was a > good idea at all. Have a look at [1] for an entrance to yet > another deep time rabbit hole. > > - timezones and stuff: those happen whenever you want to convert > the system clock to hours, minutes, days, and other human > related stuff and back. > > (if you have good net connectivity, reading the RTC at boot can > be shunned completely, you don't need it anymore). Don't forget boottime and the delta between boottime and the monotonic clock. You'll need them to explain this: $ TZ=America/New_York dmesg -T | head -1 [Wed Jun 19 01:50:14 2024] Linux version 6.9.4-200.fc40.x86_64 (mockbuild@d372fa 1a67e347178b7bd422ead09b96) (gcc (GCC) 14.1.1 20240607 (Red Hat 14.1.1-5), GNU l d version 2.41-37.fc40) #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Wed Jun 12 13:33:34 UTC 2024 $ TZ=America/California dmesg -T | head -1 [Wed Jun 19 05:50:14 2024] Linux version 6.9.4-200.fc40.x86_64 (mockbuild@d372fa 1a67e347178b7bd422ead09b96) (gcc (GCC) 14.1.1 20240607 (Red Hat 14.1.1-5), GNU l d version 2.41-37.fc40) #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Wed Jun 12 13:33:34 UTC 2024 > Please, keep those three at a safe distance I'm not sure how you can disgorge them given they contribute to a human readable time. Jeff
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| From | tomas@tuxteam.de |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-20 08:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IRjsZ-4dPT-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270289 |
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On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 01:22:31AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:52 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: [...] > > Please, keep those three at a safe distance > > I'm not sure how you can disgorge them given they contribute to a > human readable time. I wasn't arguing to disgorge anything -- actually I tend towards non-violence most of the time :) Perhaps I should have added "... from each other" to my phrase above to make that clearer. Cheers -- t
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| From | Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-21 04:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IRClX-4pBb-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270286 |
On 20/06/2024 11:52, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > "the system's > time zone" (of which some, me included, say "there's no such thing", > and others disagree 🙂 What term is appropriate in your opinion do describe the setting stored as the /etc/localtime symlink? localtime(5) On 19/06/2024 11:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > Especially that bit with the "system timezone". Reminds me of some > remote past, where a system actually had a timezone (and changed its > clock twice a year). Back then we used to set all our networked > Windows boxen to a time zone without summer time change (ISTR it > was Monrovia/Liberia) to avoid having our Makefiles freaking out > twice a year. I recall a checkbox do disable DST in Windows 95 or Windows 98, so perhaps searching for a timezone without DST was not necessary. By the way, <https://stackoverflow.com/tags/timezone/info> describes another style of identifiers in the Microsoft TZ DB. At certain point I have realized that "time zone" and "timezone" have a bit different meaning in the case of the IANA database <https://data.iana.org/time-zones/theory.html>
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