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"Repeaters", etc.

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  "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-27 23:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-05-28 02:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 20:50 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 01:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-05-28 14:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 22:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:20 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-29 02:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-29 17:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-12 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "rtnetzlof@windstream.net" <rtnetzlof@windstream.net> - 2024-05-28 20:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:50 +0200
                Re[2]: "Repeaters", etc. "Michael Grant" <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-29 00:20 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 01:40 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-05-29 02:20 +0200
                    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 08:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 23:00 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-29 12:30 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 04:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 04:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-05-28 04:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 08:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 10:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 13:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 14:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 16:30 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 18:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-28 17:20 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 17:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:20 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-29 16:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 18:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 06:10 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 07:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 08:20 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-05-28 07:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-28 10:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 00:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-29 13:00 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 22:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-30 12:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-30 13:20 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-31 01:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jessica Litwin <jessica@litw.in> - 2024-05-29 12:50 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-29 13:30 +0200

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#270050

On 6/12/24 10:07, mick.crane wrote:
> On 2024-05-29 16:08, gene heskett wrote:
> 
>> Except at the service. Properly wired, the neutral and static grounds
>> are bonded ONLY in the service box. I am constantly amazed at the
>> people who call themselves electricians, who think the static ground
>> and the neutral are interchangeable just because they are bonded at
>> the service.
>>
> AIUI the distribution neutral is hammered into the ground at the 
> substation/generator.
> Some electricians say you don't need the earth, another explained it is 
> necessary to locally drive a conductor into the ground and attach the 
> earth to that in case something happens to the distribution neutral the 
> electric has somewhere to go to trip a relay in the house.
> mick
> .
And here in the USA, the NEC demands two ground rods separated by enough 
distance it actually is two good grounds. I have had zero problems since 
making it so in 2008 as I was building a garage on the end of the house 
and upgrading the service from a 60 amp pushmatic to a 200 amp SQD. The 
house is still a 60 but is a subcircuit now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269658

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 01:20:19PM -0400, Michael Grant wrote:

> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> > Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> > connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
> > If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units
> > designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
> > better over ALL the circuits.
> > 
> > If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
> > may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
> > phase.
> 
> In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
> a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
> different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
> to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
> these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
> legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!

Typically on an electrical install, how many and which circuits go to where
is determined by the lead electrician at install time. This means there's
no telling which "phase" of a 240V system any given room or outlet will be
on.

> 
> Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
> different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
> ground.  

I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
though.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269663

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul M Foster" <paulf@quillandmouse.com>

> I've never see a 3 phase in a house.

Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
The answers were distributed between "impossible" 
and "prohibitively expensive".

-- 
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

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#269670

On 5/28/24 14:03, rtnetzlof@windstream.net wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul M Foster" <paulf@quillandmouse.com>
>
>> I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
>
> Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
> 3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
> The answers were distributed between "impossible"
> and "prohibitively expensive".

Yeah.  Every USan I've heard of who uses 3-phase power in the home gets it
from single-phase, either by VFD or rotary or something like that.

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#269671

On 5/28/24 14:23, rtnetzlof@windstream.net wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul M Foster" <paulf@quillandmouse.com>
> 
>> I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
> 
> Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
> 3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
> The answers were distributed between "impossible"
> and "prohibitively expensive".
> 
This is economics for the power company. They may have all 3 phases 
available at the substation, but running all 3 phases to every pole in 
the village simply is not done. They balance loads by feeding phase A up 
this street, phase B up a different street, and phase C up yet another 
street, so the quoted costs will usually include the cost of 
constructing ways to get all 3 phases to your pole. The distance might 
be a mile or more. For one customer the cost WILL be phenomenal. You'll 
be $100k ahead to just buy a vfd big enough to run that lathe. That may 
require a bigger can on your pole and 750mcm drops from there to your 
house, but that is still only 2% of the cost to bring in all three 
phases to your pole.

Its been my experience that the normal electrician does NOT understand 3 
phase power at all. I've had to go behind them fixing their mistakes 
quite a few times. One such instance threatened to burn down the tv 
station every time we turned on the studio lights to do a newscast. What 
I found when I opened the covers to the breakers was enough to discuss 
the perps genealogy in flowery terms, at length. I am not an 
electrician, I'm a CET. A much rarer bird.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269674

On 5/28/24 11:03, rtnetzlof@windstream.net wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul M Foster" <paulf@quillandmouse.com>
>
>> I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
> Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
> 3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
> The answers were distributed between "impossible"
> and "prohibitively expensive".
>

Phase converters are usually the answer for that sort of thing. Whether 
old electro-mechanical (rotary), or newer static inverter designs, there 
are solutions out there that will get the job done a lot cheaper than 
convincing the utility to run a three-phase service drop to a residence.

Ironically, used three-phase equipment like lathes, milling machines, 
large band saws, planers, etc. are relatively 'cheap as chips' on the 
second-hand market.

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#269675

>From "Monte Milanuk" <memilanuk@gmail.com>
To debian-user@lists.debian.org
Date 28/05/2024 22:42:07
Subject Re: "Repeaters", etc.

>
>On 5/28/24 11:03, rtnetzlof@windstream.net wrote:
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Paul M Foster" <paulf@quillandmouse.com>
>>
>>>I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
>>Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
>>3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
>>The answers were distributed between "impossible"
>>and "prohibitively expensive".
>>
>
>Phase converters are usually the answer for that sort of thing. Whether old electro-mechanical (rotary), or newer static inverter designs, there are solutions out there that will get the job done a lot cheaper than convincing the utility to run a three-phase service drop to a residence.
>
>Ironically, used three-phase equipment like lathes, milling machines, large band saws, planers, etc. are relatively 'cheap as chips' on the second-hand market.
>
I have a friend in the US, who has a large milling machine that takes 
3-phase.  He wired he 1st phase direct to the outlet, then the 2nd phase 
through a motor which just sits there spinning with nothing connected to 
it.  And I think from memory the 3rd phase isn't connected at all.  This 
is apparently enough to run the machine.  The motor, not motor 
generator, is just an AC motor, is enough to offset the phase that it 
fools the machine into working.  I may not have all the details correct, 
if anyone is interested, shoot me a message offline and I'll chase him 
down and get the details of what he did.

I think we're way off topic now...

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#269669

On Tuesday 28 May 2024 01:49:52 pm Paul M Foster wrote:
> I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
> though.
 
Residential installations (talking in the US here) typically involve *one* transformer tapping a single phase out of the three that are up there on the pole.  The secondary is center-tapped,  and it's that point which is grounded at the service entrance.  Running 3-phase power requires *three* transformers up on the pole,  much more in the way of expense if you want that for some reason,  and I don't know of anybody that does that.  Even those who are into having some nontrivial machinery around seem these days to use a VFD to give them multiple phases at the machine,  rather than going through the expense of having it run in from the pole...


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#269672

On 5/28/24 15:29, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 May 2024 01:49:52 pm Paul M Foster wrote:
>> I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
>> though.
>   
> Residential installations (talking in the US here) typically involve *one* transformer tapping a single phase out of the three that are up there on the pole.  The secondary is center-tapped,  and it's that point which is grounded at the service entrance.  Running 3-phase power requires *three* transformers up on the pole,  much more in the way of expense if you want that for some reason,  and I don't know of anybody that does that.  Even those who are into having some nontrivial machinery around seem these days to use a VFD to give them multiple phases at the machine,  rather than going through the expense of having it run in from the pole...

And here you have it from another CET.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269677

On 5/28/24 12:47, gene heskett wrote:
> On 5/28/24 15:29, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
>> On Tuesday 28 May 2024 01:49:52 pm Paul M Foster wrote:
>>> I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
>>> though.
>> Residential installations (talking in the US here) typically involve 
>> *one* transformer tapping a single phase out of the three that are up 
>> there on the pole.  The secondary is center-tapped,  and it's that 
>> point which is grounded at the service entrance.  Running 3-phase 
>> power requires *three* transformers up on the pole,  much more in the 
>> way of expense if you want that for some reason,  and I don't know of 
>> anybody that does that.  Even those who are into having some 
>> nontrivial machinery around seem these days to use a VFD to give them 
>> multiple phases at the machine,  rather than going through the expense 
>> of having it run in from the pole...
> 
> And here you have it from another CET.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


AIUI in the USA for residential 120/240V single-phase three-wire service 
drops, electrical utilities either run all three phases along the 
distribution line or they run two phases.  Running one phase and a 
neutral instead of two phases would reduce the power by the square root 
of 3.


Running one phase and using the Earth as the return conductor is very 
dangerous and not modern practice.


David

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#269678

David writes:
> AIUI in the USA for residential 120/240V single-phase three-wire service
> drops, electrical utilities either run all three phases along the
> distribution line or they run two phases.  Running one phase and a neutral
> instead of two phases would reduce the power by the square root of 3

Here in rural Wisconsin the 7200V distribution line leaves the
substation as three phases and a grounded neutral.  This eventually
branches out into three single phase lines consisting of a phase and a
grounded neutral.  The pole pigs are connected phase to neutral.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#269684

On 5/28/24 17:10, John Hasler wrote:
> David writes:
>> AIUI in the USA for residential 120/240V single-phase three-wire service
>> drops, electrical utilities either run all three phases along the
>> distribution line or they run two phases.  Running one phase and a neutral
>> instead of two phases would reduce the power by the square root of 3
> 
> Here in rural Wisconsin the 7200V distribution line leaves the
> substation as three phases and a grounded neutral.  This eventually
> branches out into three single phase lines consisting of a phase and a
> grounded neutral.  The pole pigs are connected phase to neutral.


Interesting.  STFW I found an article and a web site that clarifies the 
above arrangements and more:

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/primary-distribution-circuits


David

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#269710

Hello,

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 01:49:52PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
> I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
> though.

There is a domestic property in Cambridge, UK, with 3 phase and
multiple consumer units, some of which run circuits at 120v instead
of 240v. 😀

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#269656

On Tue 28 May 2024 at 18:11:48 (+0100), debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 May 2024 11:31:29 +0100 "mick.crane" wrote:
> > 
> > >Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or
> > >did I misunderstand it.  
> > 
> > Yes, there is.  I believe you're thinking of powerline adaptors.  They
> > do require everything be on the same circuit, however.
> 
> I have a powerline adapter (Devolo units). There's no such restriction,
> as far as I know. My powerline transmitter and receiver are certainly
> on different circuits.
> 
> > The way electrical wiring is done in the UK often means separate
> > floors are on different circuits, and in larger properties, each
> > floor might be on two (or more) circuits, making it difficult, at
> > best, to get the whole building networked this way.  And that's
> > assuming ring circuits, if everything is on a radial, you're stymied.
> 
> Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
> If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units
> designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
> better over ALL the circuits.
> 
> If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
> may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
> phase.

I was under the impression that 3-phase to a private residence
contravenes building regulations, as that would make 440V available
for you to electrocute yourself.

This house is radially wired, and has two circuit boxes 100 feet apart
connected by a 100A cable. Powerline connectors work fine between any
points in either half of the house. I have two PL500s (two ports) and
two PL1200s (one port), all Netgear.

I've temporarily connected this computer to a PL500 in a GFIC socket
(kitchen kettle), and backed up my local mailboxes to a computer in
the attic in the other half of the house which is on a PL1200. I get
6MB/s transfer speeds.

Obviously they didn't work between the two halves when the old half's
circuit box was still powered from the easement at the back, and the
new half's 200A box powered from the front street.

On Tue 28 May 2024 at 07:39:39 (-0400), Paul M Foster wrote:
>
> We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
> will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
> and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for
> internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
> and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
> internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my
> devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
> but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.

I can't help thinking that you can "plant a device" on each computer
that doesn't have wifi by buying dongles. That is, unless you have
more than one computer in a room and they must be wire-interconnected.

For good coverage upstairs, I'd get a cable from wherever to the attic
and put another router up there. You could feed the signal through the
soffits easily enough.

Cheers,
David.

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#269662

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 12:29:37PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

[snip]

> 
> I was under the impression that 3-phase to a private residence
> contravenes building regulations, as that would make 440V available
> for you to electrocute yourself.

Nope. On a 3 phase system with individual phases at 120V, you will never
get 480V. Depending on the way it's wired at the pole, you could get a
maximum of 208V or 240V, phase to phase.

[snip]
 
> I can't help thinking that you can "plant a device" on each computer
> that doesn't have wifi by buying dongles. That is, unless you have
> more than one computer in a room and they must be wire-interconnected.

If I have more than one internet connected device in room, I just put in a
switch, which is then wired to whatever the source of the internet is in
that room.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269685

David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

> I was under the impression that 3-phase to a private residence
> contravenes building regulations, as that would make 440V available
> for you to electrocute yourself.

No, it's perfectly possible - just look at your local DNO's website.
It's necessary when there's a large power draw. Historically when
people have had a workshop with three phase machines or just a very
large house, and increasingly for 3-phase EV chargers and heat pumps
(again for large, poorly insulated houses :)

It's common in some places on the Continent because they have much
lower current limits per phase. 3-phase 32A for example.

It's pretty easy to electrocute yourself with 240V, no need for 440V :)

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#269673

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 5/28/24 10:11, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Brad Rogers<brad@fineby.me.uk>  wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 11:31:29 +0100
>> "mick.crane"<mick.crane@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> Hello mick.crane,
>>
>>> Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or
>>> did I misunderstand it.
>> Yes, there is.  I believe you're thinking of powerline adaptors.  They
>> do require everything be on the same circuit, however.
> I have a powerline adapter (Devolo units). There's no such restriction,
> as far as I know. My powerline transmitter and receiver are certainly
> on different circuits.
>
>> The way electrical wiring is done in the UK often means separate
>> floors are on different circuits, and in larger properties, each
>> floor might be on two (or more) circuits, making it difficult, at
>> best, to get the whole building networked this way.  And that's
>> assuming ring circuits, if everything is on a radial, you're stymied.
> Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
> If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units
> designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
> better over ALL the circuits.


Yes and no.  Most houses in the US are wired 'single phase as well... 
but they tap off 240vac, and then split that to two 120v 'legs'.  As 
long as all the powerline ethernet devices are plugged into circuits on 
the same 120v leg, they'll talk together just fine.  If they are spread 
across both legs... not so much. There's literally a coil of the xfmr up 
on the pole (or padmount) between those two sections, and it blocks HF 
comm waves pretty effectively.

Although... in theory... i.e. it occurs to me but i haven't tried it 
personally... you *might* be able to  have plugs in both 'legs' 
connected to a switch, and be able to bridge them that way.  Might be 
some overarching electrical/grounding considerations worth thinking 
about further, though.  More likely the immediate 'problem' is finding 
two circuits conveniently close to one another physically, yet on the 
separate legs of the mains.  Not extremely likely, and it'd probably be 
far easier to pursue other solutions.

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#269613

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 8:13 PM Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>
> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?).

Your contract did not specify the house to be wired. You should have
called it out, if you wanted it.

> The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
>
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate

If you want to use ethernet, then you want a switch. Each room gets
wired for ethernet, and each room needs an ethernet cable. All cables
are backhauled to the switch, and the switch is plugged into the
telecom modem or router.

If you want to use wifi, then get a couple of 802.11 AC (or above)
routers. 802.11 AC provides "wifi roaming." Backhaul the wifi base
stations using ethernet to the telecom provider's modem. In this case,
you only need two ethernet cables - one for each backhaul.

802.11 AC was the first to provide wifi roaming. 802.11 AC was branded
Wifi 5. You can also use 802.11 AX, which is Wifi 6. Most (all?) of
your devices should support 802.11 AC/Wifi 5. You should check if they
support 802.11 AX, so you can learn if you can provide the 802.11
AX/Wifi 6 network.

Now, to go from the telecom company's modem or router to the telecom
company's network takes an interface device. Nowadays, that is an ONT
or Optical Network Terminal. The telecom gives (sells?) you the ONT,
too.

The ONT is the equivalent to the old twisted pair NID or Network
Interface Device. Everything inside up to the ONT or the NID is CPE or
Customer Premise Equipment. The subscriber is responsible for the CPE.
The ONT and NID outward is the responsibility of the telecom provider.

The ONT is the bridge from the house's network to the telecom's
network. The ONT can often provide both Ethernet and RG-6 cable to the
modem or router.

Jeff

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#269614

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:

> Folks:
> 
> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> 
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> it.
> 

I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the
problem.

Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's assume that
I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. Let's say I have
three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way or another) to my
router/modem.

It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device
via ethernet cable.

How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269615 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tuesday, 28-05-2024 at 12:05 Paul M Foster wrote:
> On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
> 
> > Folks:
> > 
> > At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> > for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> > internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> > idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> > router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> > have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> > cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> > 
> > I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> > anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> > it.
> > 
> 
> I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the
> problem.
> 
> Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's assume that
> I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. Let's say I have
> three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way or another) to my
> router/modem.
> 
> It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
> mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
> via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device
> via ethernet cable.
> 
> How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
> 
>
Paul,

My sister's house has a raked roof (i.e. no cavity), and sits on a concrete slab. Without removing sheets of iron from the roof there was no simple answer for running a Ethernet cable.

One suggestion given to us was to run Ethernet cable in conduit on the outside of house. Not an elegant solution.

How many rooms you want to have computers in?  The more rooms you have could increase complexity of your solution.

What we ended up using was Mesh system. As a proof of concept I used two FRITZ!Box 7490 as I own two of these devices, and very much like them. One FRITZ!Box 7490 was used as the router/modem, the other as the repeater (this modem has dual features). This worked quite well. Fortunately my sister does not play first person shooter games as I believe Mesh systems slightly increase network latency.
https://avm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Global/Produkte/FRITZBox/7490/Special_en/7490_special_en.html

We found that walls are too good at soaking up Wifi signals. The distances between modems and computers was the main challenge.

If you had the money, I would get a cable installer to do a proper job of running cables. I used to be an Electrician, hence I am familiar with running wires, so in my own home I ran Ethernet cable where ever needed (and we have a cavity ceiling). I am guessing this option is not possible for your situation.

George.

> 
> -- 
> Paul M. Foster
> Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
> Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
> Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster
> 
> 

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