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rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after

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  rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-01-17 17:30 +0100
    Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-01-17 18:30 +0100
      Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Keith Bainbridgge <keithrbaugroups@gmail.com> - 2024-01-18 00:10 +0100
      Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-01-18 02:30 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-01-18 08:40 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-18 12:10 +0100
          Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-01-18 12:20 +0100
            Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-18 12:50 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2024-01-18 14:00 +0100
    Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2024-01-17 19:30 +0100
      Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-01-17 21:00 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-17 21:20 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-17 22:00 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2024-01-18 02:40 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-18 12:20 +0100
          Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-01-18 13:50 +0100
            Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-18 14:10 +0100
              Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-01-18 15:30 +0100
              Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-26 16:40 +0100
                Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-26 17:30 +0100
                  Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-28 18:00 +0100
            Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-26 16:20 +0100
              Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after) fxkl47BF@protonmail.com - 2024-01-26 16:30 +0100
              Re: Home UPS recommendations Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-26 16:40 +0100
                Re: Home UPS recommendations Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2024-01-26 17:20 +0100
                Re: Home UPS recommendations "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-01-26 17:20 +0100
              Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Roger Price <debian@rogerprice.org> - 2024-01-26 19:10 +0100
                Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-01-26 20:50 +0100
                  Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Roger Price <debian@rogerprice.org> - 2024-01-27 11:00 +0100
              Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-01-26 20:10 +0100
                Re: Home UPS recommendations ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-01-26 20:30 +0100
                  Re: Home UPS recommendations debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-01-26 21:50 +0100
              Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-28 19:00 +0100
                Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-28 20:00 +0100
                  Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs  rsync--delete-after) gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-01-29 07:00 +0100
                  Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-02-08 16:30 +0100
                    Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2024-02-08 17:30 +0100
                      Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-02-08 17:40 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-08 18:00 +0100
                    Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-09 12:10 +0100
                      Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-09 13:10 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-09 22:40 +0100
                          Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-09 23:30 +0100
                      Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after) "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-02-09 17:40 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-09 18:20 +0100
                          Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-02-10 01:10 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync  --delete-after) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-09 22:50 +0100
                          Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after) "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-02-11 19:10 +0100
                      Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-02-09 18:20 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-09 21:40 +0100
                        Re: Home UPS recommendations hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-09 22:50 +0100
                          Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-02-10 01:00 +0100
                            Re: Home UPS recommendations hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-10 03:20 +0100
                              Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-02-10 04:30 +0100
                                Re: Home UPS recommendations hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-10 11:10 +0100
                                  Re: Home UPS recommendations Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-02-10 15:00 +0100
                                    Re: Home UPS recommendations hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-10 16:50 +0100
                                      Re: Home UPS recommendations Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-02-10 19:50 +0100
                                        Re: Home UPS recommendations gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-02-10 22:50 +0100
                                        Re: Home UPS recommendations hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-11 02:00 +0100
            Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-26 16:20 +0100
              Re: Data and hardware protection measures; was: rsync --delete vs  rsync --delete-after Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-26 17:00 +0100
                Re: Data and hardware protection measures; was: rsync --delete vs  rsync --delete-after hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-01-28 19:30 +0100
                  Re: Data and hardware protection measures Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-28 20:30 +0100
                    Re: Data and hardware protection measures Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-01-28 21:50 +0100
              Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-01-27 14:10 +0100
    Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-01-18 05:20 +0100
      Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-18 15:40 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-01-18 16:10 +0100
        Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2024-01-18 22:10 +0100
          Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-18 22:50 +0100
            Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-01-19 03:40 +0100
            Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2024-01-19 08:10 +0100

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#266680

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 16:27 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2024 16:39 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw):
> [...]
> > Having multiple generations of backups already increases the needed
> > storage space by a bit more than half.  That makes it already arguable
> > if it's better to make (multiple generations of) backups on a single
> > RAID or on N single disks.  Any of the disks can fail at any time.  If
> > you go with N == 2, a RAID (with multiple generations of backups on
> > it) can be better because when a disk fails, the RAID will very likely
> > survive and the non-RAID may not.
> 
> I'm not sure how you figure that.

It's simple: when using RAID1 with 2 disks, you double the physical
storage capacity needed.  When using 2 independent disks, you also
double the capacity.  In either case, when a disk fails, the RAID has
a chance to survive the failure while the single disks don't (ignoring
that you may be able to recover data from a failed disk).  So either
you don't loose a backup or you do loose one backup.

If you're lucky, you loose the outdated backup rather than the most
recent one.  If you made the backup on RAID, you don't loose the most
recent backup.  I like it better not to loose the most recent backup.

That's assuming that you have storage capacity for a single backup,
i. e. one backup on RAID vs. one most recent backup on one disk and on
older backup on the other disk.

Of course, when you have multiple generations of backups on each set
of disks, things get more complicated.  It also gets more complicated
when the volume you're making backups of doesn't fit on a single disk
...

> [...]
> > Trying to make things appear easier by pointing out that failed disks
> > can be replaced is not helpful.
> 
> It's a _backup_. _By definition_, a backup is only critical once the
> primary copy becomes inaccessible for some reason. Hence:

I have to disagree here.  The backup is always critical before you
have eliminated the possibility that the data can get lost.  Only when
you have done that, then you don't need a backup at all.

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#266626 — Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
> I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
> need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
> required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
> usually every 3--5 years.

Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
about 300W.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#266628 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, Andy Smith wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
>> I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
>> need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
>> required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
>> usually every 3--5 years.
>
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.


just my experience
i have 2 apc 740's that date from the mid 90's
when the internal battery gave out i added a 50 amp anderson connector
i connect to a 35ah sla
you can change battteries while it's running

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#266631 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

On 26 Jan 2024 15:17 +0000, from andy@strugglers.net (Andy Smith):
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

I would suggest to look at the free-standing floor-/tower-model APC
_Back-UPS Pro_ series.

They come in a variety of sizes, the battery is easily replacable (not
sure if you can do it online, though; I've never had reason to look
that up or try it) and they aren't horribly expensive to purchase
(though in fairness not the cheapest).

I have several and they have been very reliable. Battery replacement
is basically flip it onto its side, remove a lid, slide the old
battery out, put the new battery in, put the lid back, and done.

-- 
Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

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#266636 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:37 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2024 15:17 +0000, from andy@strugglers.net (Andy Smith):
> > Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> > has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> > about 300W.
> 
> I would suggest to look at the free-standing floor-/tower-model APC
> _Back-UPS Pro_ series.

I have had a couple of those, never had any problems with them. Though
replacement batteries cost more than half the price of a new UPS so I
ended up just buying a a second UPS when the original batteries got
rather feeble. (After 7 years).

I've now stopped using it though because of the cost of the electricity
it uses. It uses 18W when just sitting there ready for action, which 
worked out at 40GBP a year!

-- 
Tixy

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#266637 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

I, too, have always used APC.

I've heard people swear by APC, and I've heard people swear *at* APC. 
I've had reason to do both, myself (and I won't elaborate on either).

--
James H. H. Lampert

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#266644 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, Andy Smith wrote:

> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's.  I change the batteries every 4-5 
years, but this is not as easy as it should be.  It is not evident that only one 
of the four back panel screws needs to be removed.  I took me a while to learn 
this.  The four screws are deeply recessed and difficult to see.  They have 
different heads: some are Torx 10, others are a star.  Keep trying different 
screwdrivers until you feel something turning.

The battery compartment is too tight. I took me 4 attempts to get the batteries 
back in, with the cables still connected and positioned such that the rear panel 
can be put back.

If you re-assemble and the UPS doesn't respond to pressing the ON/OFF button, 
then the battery leads have detached.  Start all over again.  Good luck!

It could have been a lot easier.  Roger

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#266650 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Fri 26 Jan 2024 at 19:03:33 (+0100), Roger Price wrote:

> I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's.  I change the batteries
> every 4-5 years, but this is not as easy as it should be.  It is not
> evident that only one of the four back panel screws needs to be
> removed.  I took me a while to learn this.  The four screws are deeply
> recessed and difficult to see.  They have different heads: some are
> Torx 10, others are a star.  Keep trying different screwdrivers until
> you feel something turning.

20/20 hindsight might suggest that you were only intended
to remove the star, if by that you mean Philips/Pozidrive.

Cheers,
David.

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#266656 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 26 Jan 2024 at 19:03:33 (+0100), Roger Price wrote:
>
>> I currently have two Eaton Ellipse ECO 1600's. ... The four screws are deeply 
>> recessed and difficult to see.  They have different heads: some are Torx 10, 
>> others are a star.

> 20/20 hindsight might suggest that you were only intended
> to remove the star, if by that you mean Philips/Pozidrive.

What I called "star" is probably a Quadrex.

Roger

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#266647 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

Andy Smith composed on 2024-01-26 10:17 (UTC-0500):

> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:

>> I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
>> need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
>> required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
>> usually every 3--5 years.

> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

Ambient temps have a huge effect on UPS battery life. Temps here are purposely
above average, between 76F (winter) and 82F (summer), saving much electricity in
cooling season, which here in Florida is long, among other reasons. Before I
moved, I had 7 UPSes online at all times due to unconscionable frequency and
length of power outages from the monopoly power provider. Since moving I'm down to
4. It was uncommon for replacement batteries to last more than 30 months, and
common that they lasted less than 24 to as little as 18 or 20. OEM batteries
usually managed up to 60. Those with plastic instead of metal cases have the
advantage that swollen old batteries can usually be extracted successfully, while
metal could necessitate such heroics as drill and saw to extricate. My favorite
brands are Tripp-Lite and Eaton.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
	based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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#266648 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

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Take a look at Tripp Lite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripp_Lite

I used them for years to back up a small domain -- they make sine-wave electricity.

--
Glenn English

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#266652 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Take a look at Tripp Lite:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripp_Lite
> 
> I used them for years to back up a small domain -- they make
> sine-wave electricity.

One of the references in the wikipedia article looked interesting:

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2472189/a-surge-protector-that-doesn-t-protect.html

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#266683 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Fri, 2024-01-26 at 15:17 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 04:11:39PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > I've never had issues with any UPS due to self tests.  The batteries
> > need to be replaced when they are worn out.  How often that is
> > required depends on the UPS and the conditions it is working in,
> > usually every 3--5 years.
> 
> Out of interest what brand of UPS do you recommend for home use that
> has easily-replaceable batteries every 3–5 years? For a load of
> about 300W.

Generally I recommend APC because they work well (which is something
to be expected and shouldn't need to be pointed out), they can easily
be monitored with apcupsd and, very importantly, their batteries are
usually easily available so you can replace them without difficulty.

However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
(Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
years.

I like the better models way better, like as on that[2] picture (Back
UPS pro).  I bought one a bit over 10 years ago (it even came with a
120k or so warranty for when a device protected by it would get
damaged) and replaced the batteries twice so far.  It's been working
without any issues ever since, and it'll probably work as long as new
batteries remain available.  So that's about 3 years battery life as
well.

Then it depends on a lot of things, primarily on the availability of
replacement batteries, then on how much you're willing to spend ---
since you can buy used ones because the only thing that goes bad is
the batteries, and you can find new old stock --- how much power you
need, if you want one that features a network card and if you want a
19" rack version or a standalone version.

Of course, their models change over time.  The 900VA smart UPS pro
delivers up to 540W, IIRC, and when it's overloaded it very annoyingly
beeps, but it continues to provide power.  I guess it shuts down when
it's overloaded and the main power fails, but I've never had that
happen yet.

For only 300W you go for this one:
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BR700G/apc-backups-pro-700va-420w-tower-120v-6x-nema-515r-outlets-avr-lcd-user-replaceable-battery/

Just keep in mind that you usually end up needing a UPS with higher
capacity than you planned for.  So it makes sense to check what the
batterie(s) cost and what the price difference between models with
lower and higher capacity is.  Some models take two or more batteries
while the version with lower capacity may take the same battery but
only one, making it overall so much cheaper that the model with more
capacity that requires two (or more) batteries may get too expensive.
But there may be a model with slightly more capacity that still takes
only one battery and you may be glad later that you spent a little
more money for more capacity.

Definitely stay away from UPSs from HP.  If you can reach someone from
HP at all, they will charge you before they would tell you what the
price of the batteries might be :(

Eaton probably makes good ones, too, but they're not common here, same
as another manufacturer the name of which I can't remember.  So I have
no experience with them.

Of course, you don't want to buy one from an unknown manufacturer with
no reputation, especially when it's a chinese one.  The batteries are
pretty generic, but for all you know, the manufacturer may have not
understood that pretty high currents can flow in an UPS and probably
has skimped on the wiring and/or other components to keep it cheap,
and it'll set your house on fire.  APC has understood that even in
their basic models (at least for the wiring; I can't tell for the
other components since I don't have enough knowledge about those).

After having said all the above, it's pretty simple because it comes
down to that, unless anything APC is difficult to come by where you
life, you can't go wrong with APC.


[1]: https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/E910/APC_BX1400U_01.png
[2]:
https://oaziscomputer.hu/images/products/6934_apc-back-ups-pro-900-br900g-gr_1527776643.jpg

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#266686 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

Hi,

Thanks, this is very useful.

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:58:08PM +0100, hw wrote:
> However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
> (Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
> though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
> be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
> years.

So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
this price.

Although the battery is not strictly user-replaceable, I watched
some videos on the task and it seems pretty easily doable.

Something for me to think on.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
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#266706 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync--delete-after)

On 1/28/24 13:55, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks, this is very useful.
> 
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:58:08PM +0100, hw wrote:
>> However, stay away from their cheap models as seen on this[1] picture
>> (Back UPS).  They work and you can replace the batteries yourself even
>> though you're not supposed to.  It's a minimum basic device.  It may
>> be on ok option if you're on a budget.  Their batteries last about 3
>> years.
> 
> So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
> about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
> this price.
> 
> Although the battery is not strictly user-replaceable, I watched
> some videos on the task and it seems pretty easily doable.
> 
> Something for me to think on.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy

I'm a fan of APC, but the consumer versions. and I don't worry about 
batteries until they won't last the 6 or 7 seconds it takes to spin up 
the 20kw kohler in the back yard. My now deceased wife was on an oxy 
concentrator the last 15 years of her life, and a power failure of 20 
minutes might have finished her, so I bought a standby just a few months 
before the direcho that took power down for 3 days in June 2010. Very 
handy since.

I have an APC-1600 that been begging for a battery for a couple years, 
Still works fine for those few seconds.
Take care, stay well, Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#267136 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

Hello,

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 06:55:04PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> So, I must admit, I am quite tempted by BX1600MI which would cost me
> about £183. The equivalent spec in the Pro range is more than twice
> this price.

[ TL;DR: While free software like apcupsd or nut support all APC
  models that you can buy today, APC (Schneider Electric) the
  company only supports its own Windows-only Powerchute and won't do
  a warranty claim unless you can run that. I therefore question the
  device's suitability to a Linux environment. ]

Just as an update, I bought the APC Back-UPS BX1600MI and while
superficially it seems fine, using "apcupsd" and/or "nut" it reports
a constant stream of short-lived (less than 1 second) battery
detach/re-attach and powerfail/restore events.

The unit itself doesn't show any audible or visual alarm but as
these events are sub-second in duration I don't know if they are
just too quick for that.

Someone on the apcupsd mailing list thinks I have a faulty UPS or
battery and should get a replacement.

APC refuses to proceed with a warranty claim because they don't
support apcupsd or nut, only their own proprietary Powerchute. They
won't proceed unless I can get Powerchute to show these events or a
failed self-test. I can't do that because I don't have any Windows
machines. I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.

While in theory if I had heeded the warnings about Back-UPS being of
lesser quality I might have bought a more expensive model that
wasn't faulty (or at least did not have this problem, whatever it
is), I am disappointed to learn that APC will not proceed with
warranty claims unless you can run some Windows software, which puts
me off the entire product range.

Having said that, I don't need to do a warranty claim. As it was
only purchased a couple of weeks ago, consumer law allows me to
return it to the seller as faulty whether they accept that or not,
so I'll likely do that. It's just disappointing and a lot more
hassle.

Thanks,
Andy

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#267139 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:29:21 +0000
Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> wrote:

> I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
> in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.

You could try wine. You might need the more recent crossover-office,
which is proprietary (but contributes greatly to wine).

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#267141 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On 2024-02-08, Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:29:21 +0000
> Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> wrote:
>
>> I do not overly want to buy a Windows licence, run it
>> in a VM and pass USB through to that VM just to try this.
>
> You could try wine. You might need the more recent crossover-office,
> which is proprietary (but contributes greatly to wine).
>

I wonder if he could run the app on one of these virtual machines for
evaluation purposes:

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines/

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#267142 — Re: Home UPS recommendations

On 8 Feb 2024 16:34 -0000, from curty@free.fr (Curt):
> I wonder if he could run the app on one of these virtual machines for
> evaluation purposes:

Using an evaluation copy of Windows with USB pass-through might be the
easiest way to run APC's proprietary software.

Or since that's an option, just return the UPS as a "I changed my
mind". Whether or not it's technically broken, seems to me that it's
clearly not healthy.

-- 
Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

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#267180 — Re: Home UPS recommendations (Was Re: rsync --delete vs rsync --delete-after)

On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:29 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> [...]
> Someone on the apcupsd mailing list thinks I have a faulty UPS or
> battery and should get a replacement.
> 
> APC refuses to proceed with a warranty claim because they don't
> support apcupsd or nut, only their own proprietary Powerchute. They
> won't proceed unless I can get Powerchute to show these events or a
> failed self-test.

That sucks.  I didn't know that they don't stand behind their
products, and it makes APC not recommendable any longer.

What other manufacturers could we buy UPSs from?

> [...]
> Having said that, I don't need to do a warranty claim. As it was
> only purchased a couple of weeks ago, consumer law allows me to
> return it to the seller as faulty whether they accept that or not,
> so I'll likely do that. It's just disappointing and a lot more
> hassle.

That seems like the best option.  You can then buy from a better
manufacturer which may avoid having trouble with APC later if there's
a problem.

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