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Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

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  Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-14 00:00 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2023-11-14 00:10 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2023-11-14 00:10 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-14 07:20 +0100
        Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-15 04:00 +0100
          Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-15 08:40 +0100
            Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-15 14:50 +0100
              Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-15 22:00 +0100
                Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-15 23:50 +0100
                  Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-16 00:40 +0100
                    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-16 01:00 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-11-14 13:40 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-14 00:50 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2023-11-14 02:10 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2023-11-16 02:10 +0100
        Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-16 03:20 +0100
          Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2023-11-16 03:40 +0100
        Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2023-11-16 08:50 +0100
          Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2023-11-16 09:00 +0100
            Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2023-11-16 19:40 +0100
          Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-16 16:50 +0100
            Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router basti <mailinglist@unix-solution.de> - 2023-11-16 17:10 +0100
            Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2023-11-16 19:30 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2023-11-14 10:50 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router basti <mailinglist@unix-solution.de> - 2023-11-14 11:20 +0100
    Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-30 00:20 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-30 00:40 +0100
        Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2023-11-30 13:00 +0100
          Set UEFI boot target with Windows (was: Hardware Advice Wanted:  Router) Arno Lehmann <al@its-lehmann.de> - 2023-11-30 13:30 +0100
            Re: Set UEFI boot target with Windows Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-11-30 13:50 +0100
            Re: Set UEFI boot target with Windows (was: Hardware Advice Wanted:  Router) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2023-11-30 14:40 +0100
          Getting UEFI to boot Debian (was: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-12-02 18:10 +0100
      Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-12-02 18:00 +0100
        Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-12-02 20:00 +0100
          memtest86+ on UEFI (was: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-12-02 20:20 +0100
            Re: memtest86+ on UEFI Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-12-03 05:30 +0100

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#263508 — Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
router/gateway computer.

It should run Debian.

It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
have suitable expansion capability.

It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
physical footprint would be nice.

Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.

It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.

WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.

SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
spinning rust.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#263509

On 14/11/23 06:57, Charles Curley wrote:
> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386 
> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a 
> router/gateway computer. It should run Debian. It should either have 
> two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or have suitable expansion 
> capability. It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A 
> small physical footprint would be nice. Most of the time it will run 
> headless, but occasionally I will need to stick a monitor and keyboard 
> on it. VGA will do fine. It will be a router. It will have at least 
> DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will 
> be fine. WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down. 
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE 
> spinning rust.


I use FriendlyElec devices that match all your requirements. You just 
have to load and configure the software yourself.

Current examples include NanoPi R6C for a simple router or NanoPi R6S if 
you want to run a DMZ LAN as well as an internal LAN. They all have 
2.5Gbit ethernet out of the box.

https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69

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#263510

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:28PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
> router/gateway computer.
> 
> It should run Debian.
> 
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
> 
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
> 
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
> 
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
> 
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
> 
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.
> 
I am in the process of solving almost the exact same problem. At the
moment, this is my leading candidate:
https://www.newegg.com/neosmay-kc12-alder-lake/p/2SW-006Y-00074

In my case, I also use my router as a backup server, so I wanted dual
storage. If you can get by without that, then this much cheaper machine
might work for you:
https://www.newegg.com/p/2SW-006Y-00079

I haven't purchased either one yet, but I plan to purchase the first in
the coming weeks.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

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#263518

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On 14.11.2023 04:08, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:28PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
>> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
>> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
>> router/gateway computer.
>>
>> It should run Debian.
>>
>> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
>> have suitable expansion capability.
>>
>> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
>> physical footprint would be nice.
>>
>> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
>> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
>>
>> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
>> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
>>
>> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
>>
>> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
>> spinning rust.
>>
> I am in the process of solving almost the exact same problem. At the
> moment, this is my leading candidate:
> https://www.newegg.com/neosmay-kc12-alder-lake/p/2SW-006Y-00074
This looks too good to be true and raises many red flags.
According to Intel specs [1] for this processor it's 28W of heat to 
dissipate and that is Base Power only, Turbo Boost is whooping 64W(!).
IMO it is impossible to do with fan-less design at this small size, so 
there will be at least small fan running at full speed at all time and 
there has to be quite beefy heatsink also.
There are no photos of this device disassembled and fake 3D rendered 
pictures doesn't count.
A quick search of "NEOSMAY MINI PC Disassembly" on YT gave no results, 
only fake reviews and useless unboxing videos.
I've seen 17" laptops with much larger heatsink solutions (multiple 
heatpipes and fans), struggle with effective heat dissipation.


[1] 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/226254/intel-core-i71260p-processor-18m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz/specifications.html
-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#263544

> This looks too good to be true and raises many red flags.
> According to Intel specs [1] for this processor it's 28W of heat to
>  dissipate and that is Base Power only, Turbo Boost is whooping 64W(!).
> IMO it is impossible to do with fan-less design at this small size, so there
> will be at least small fan running at full speed at all time and there has
> to be quite beefy heatsink also.

The marketing material does say fairly clearly that there's a fan inside
(it even boasts of it being "efficient" and "low noise", mentioning
"45db").

Also my understanding is that this CPU is like the one in many NUCs which
means that its 4.7GHz turbo mode can be used only for *very* short
bursts, so it may be unnecessary to size the heatsink&fan for the full
64W as long as it can withstand it for a long enough "short burst".

Note they also offer a fanless system with somewhat similar specs for
$100 more.  That sounds a lot more atttractive to my ears.


        Stefan

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#263546

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On 15.11.2023 07:56, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> This looks too good to be true and raises many red flags.
>> According to Intel specs [1] for this processor it's 28W of heat to
>>   dissipate and that is Base Power only, Turbo Boost is whooping 64W(!).
>> IMO it is impossible to do with fan-less design at this small size, so there
>> will be at least small fan running at full speed at all time and there has
>> to be quite beefy heatsink also.
> The marketing material does say fairly clearly that there's a fan inside
> (it even boasts of it being "efficient" and "low noise", mentioning
> "45db").
I wrote that email as a word of caution, because Roberto had mentioned 
he is looking for the device with the same conditions as OP, which is 
"no fans".
And this model will be very noisy at all times.

> Also my understanding is that this CPU is like the one in many NUCs which
> means that its 4.7GHz turbo mode can be used only for *very* short
> bursts, so it may be unnecessary to size the heatsink&fan for the full
> 64W as long as it can withstand it for a long enough "short burst".
And this is why there is no reason to have high power CPU inside.
I expect the CPU temperature to be at 98 degrees Celsius at all times 
and constant throttling under minimal load.
There is also VRM zone often neglected, most likely it will be air 
cooled (without heatsink) with temperatures close to 100C at all times and
there is a limit of how much heat a PCB could dissipate until carbonation.
Even NVMe SSD and RAM generate substantial amounts of heat and I doubt 
this device has the same design as NUC that has extra heatsink under the 
top cover.
What good will it be if with high probability the device will burn out 
in 3 months?

> Note they also offer a fanless system with somewhat similar specs for
> $100 more.  That sounds a lot more atttractive to my ears.
Intel NUC with the same CPU [1] and fan cooling, draws 40-90W from PSU 
and struggle with throttling, overheating and noise.
And NUCs are usually expected to have much better thermal solution 
design than its clones.

If I needed a fan-less PC of this form factor I'd look for 10-15W low 
power CPUs and
refused to buy anything if there is no video review of it, with complete 
disassembly and temperatures under load,
or at least a complete service manual with accurate pictures of components.


[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZbYSUwvea0
-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#263550

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 12:31:52 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15.11.2023 07:56, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>  [...]  
>  [...]  
> I wrote that email as a word of caution, because Roberto had
> mentioned he is looking for the device with the same conditions as
> OP, which is "no fans".
> And this model will be very noisy at all times.

How do you figure that it will be noisy at all times? I saw noting in
the specifications or reviews that indicated that.

> 
>  [...]  
> And this is why there is no reason to have high power CPU inside.
> I expect the CPU temperature to be at 98 degrees Celsius at all times 
> and constant throttling under minimal load.

Yikes! None of my machines gets anywhere near that. The fan cooled CPUs
on my desktop are in the 26-32° range right now (early morning, no
load). The machine I am typing this on, a laptop, is reporting core
temps of 44° and 50° right now. All consider high to be ~~86°, with
critical near 98°. (Data courtesy of the sensors program.)


> What good will it be if with high probability the device will burn
> out in 3 months?

Indeed. I've gotten 16 years out of my FIT-PCs so far and would like to
get a respectable portion of that out of their replacement.


-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#263559

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On 15.11.2023 18:47, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 12:31:52 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev"<avbetev@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 15.11.2023 07:56, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>   [...]
>>   [...]
>> I wrote that email as a word of caution, because Roberto had
>> mentioned he is looking for the device with the same conditions as
>> OP, which is "no fans".
>> And this model will be very noisy at all times.
> How do you figure that it will be noisy at all times? I saw noting in
> the specifications or reviews that indicated that.
Are you talking about Neosmay based on i7-1260P CPU?
Like I said previously there are no reviews that would show temperatures 
under load and no disassembly videos that will show the thermal solution.
IMO the reason for that is simple, to keep it quiet about inconvenient 
technicalities and to sell sub-optimal product.
Specifications for this CPU shows a requirement of a good thermal 
solution, which should be adequately large\noisy for this form factor.

>>   [...]
>> And this is why there is no reason to have high power CPU inside.
>> I expect the CPU temperature to be at 98 degrees Celsius at all times
>> and constant throttling under minimal load.
> Yikes! None of my machines gets anywhere near that. The fan cooled CPUs
> on my desktop are in the 26-32° range right now (early morning, no
> load). The machine I am typing this on, a laptop, is reporting core
> temps of 44° and 50° right now. All consider high to be ~~86°, with
> critical near 98°. (Data courtesy of the sensors program.)
None of my personal machines either. It all depends on specifications 
for each individual piece of hardware.
My desktop has Skylake CPU rated at 65W Base TDP and cooled by 
tower-style heatsink with 4 heatpipes rated at 130W TDP.
Idle, small load temps are 28-32°C, busy workloads: 4 cores compiling, 
7-zip compression, video rendering, maxes out at 70°C in Summer.
There is also a netbook, I use it on rare occasion, it has 6.5W Atom CPU 
and Nvidia ION discrete VGA.
It has heatsinks for both Intel SoC and Nvidia chipset with heatpipes 
and a cooling fan, and it is incapable of overheating even under high 
load, because of low power CPU.
This netbook is painfully slow, it has quite noisy small fan, but 
temperatures are maxed out at 50°C.
The thing is desktops and laptops could have much better thermal 
solution simply because there is space inside for it.

Now let's look at thermal solutions of Intel NUCs [1] [2] for an example.
They look similar to what you could see inside a laptop, except in both 
cases there is only a small heatsink and two heatpipes.
VRM zone is cooled by air which is not great.
First photo depicts thermal solution for i5-10210U processor [3] which 
is rated at 15W TDP, or 10-25W base frequency.
Second photo depicts thermal solution for i7-1165G7 processor [4] which 
is rated at 12-28W base frequency.
Both thermal solutions show sub-par performance under load, because 
there are multiple complains about overheating NUCs on the Internet.
Most of the solutions for the complaints either a cleanup from dust or 
set a power limit via BIOS, or both.
There is a fan-less case [5] for NUCs is available, which looks 
reasonable, basically a brick of aluminum, but even then they are rated 
25W TDP maximum and
it is required from user to set BIOS settings to power limit CPU to 25W.

And that's about widely distributed and supported NUCs from Intel.
Now lets take a look at Newsmay Neosmay products. Odd naming.
We can't find any photos of disassembled products on Newsmay official 
website [6].
There is one good review of S2-B560TPM mini PC [7] with photos of it 
disassembled.
And there it is, same two heatpipes and a heatsink with a fan.
As shown in the review, even with slightly larger case size, they 
couldn't manage to design adequate cooling solution for i5-11400T 
desktop CPU [8] which is rated 35W TDP,
although there are additional heatsinks covering VRM zone, which is a plus.
It looks like a good thermal solution for a 10-15W TDP CPU and that is it.

So once again, what is the point to have high power CPU inside (and pay 
more for it also),
if because of inadequate thermal solutions you have to power limit it to 
base frequency, or suffer from constant throttling under load, noise and
other consequences of overheating, such as reduced lifetime of the device?

>> What good will it be if with high probability the device will burn
>> out in 3 months?
> Indeed. I've gotten 16 years out of my FIT-PCs so far and would like to
> get a respectable portion of that out of their replacement.
16 years is a good amount of value. :)
Is it Pentium 4 on ITX motherboard?
Nowadays they don't make them like before, and it is so hard to buy 
something decent.
Everything is power hungry, working at insane frequency speeds; tiny ICs 
are more fragile and susceptible to overheating;
BGA SoCs with hundreds of leads on thin PCBs prone to deformation; 
lead-free solder and all that other planned obsolescence dance..


[1] 
https://nucblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/nuc10i5fnk_heatsink-1024x1024.jpg
[2] 
https://nucblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/nuc11pahi7_heatsink-1024x1024.jpg
[3] 
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/195436/intel-core-i5-10210u-processor-6m-cache-up-to-4-20-ghz.html
[4] 
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208662/intel-core-i71165g7-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz.html
[5] https://www.akasa.co.uk/search.php?seed=A-NUC52-M1B
[6] https://www.newsmaytech.com/product/
[7] 
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-of-Newsmay-Neosmay-S2-B560TPM-mini-PC-small-office-PC-with-efficient-Intel-Core-i5-11400T.638119.0.html
[8] 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/212273/intel-core-i511400t-processor-12m-cache-up-to-3-70-ghz/specifications.html
-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#263560

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:58:05 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:

> 16 years is a good amount of value. :)
> Is it Pentium 4 on ITX motherboard?

Nope. FIT-PC, first iteration. Processor is an AMD Geode SBC.
https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=c256a73072

I did buy a spare hard drive for each, and I think all four of those are
in use. At the time 80 Gig hard drives were cheaper than the 60 Gig ones
that came with the computers, so I got a mild upgrade.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#263561

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On 16.11.2023 03:46, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:58:05 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev"<avbetev@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> 16 years is a good amount of value. :)
>> Is it Pentium 4 on ITX motherboard?
> Nope. FIT-PC, first iteration. Processor is an AMD Geode SBC.
> https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=c256a73072
>
https://www.compulab.com/products/computer-on-modules/cm-iglx/#specs
x86 CPU 500Mhz, DDR1, IDE ATA-100, 100Mbit NIC and only 3-5W.
Cool stuff.
I've never seen them in the wild.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#263562

On 11/15/23 18:37, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 16.11.2023 03:46, Charles Curley wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:58:05 +0500
>> "Alexander V. Makartsev"<avbetev@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> 16 years is a good amount of value. :)
>>> Is it Pentium 4 on ITX motherboard?
>> Nope. FIT-PC, first iteration. Processor is an AMD Geode SBC.
>> https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=c256a73072
>>
> https://www.compulab.com/products/computer-on-modules/cm-iglx/#specs
> x86 CPU 500Mhz, DDR1, IDE ATA-100, 100Mbit NIC and only 3-5W.
> Cool stuff.
> I've never seen them in the wild.

And dis-interesting also is that the Pricing etc list has zero prices.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#263527

Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:28PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> > My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
> > Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
> > router/gateway computer.
> > 
> > It should run Debian.
> > 
> > It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> > have suitable expansion capability.
> > 
> > It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> > physical footprint would be nice.
> > 
> > Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need
> > to stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
> > 
> > It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng
> > and firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
> > 
> > WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
> > 
> > SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> > spinning rust.
> >   
> I am in the process of solving almost the exact same problem. At the
> moment, this is my leading candidate:
> https://www.newegg.com/neosmay-kc12-alder-lake/p/2SW-006Y-00074
> 
> In my case, I also use my router as a backup server, so I wanted dual
> storage. If you can get by without that, then this much cheaper
> machine might work for you:
> https://www.newegg.com/p/2SW-006Y-00079
> 
> I haven't purchased either one yet, but I plan to purchase the first
> in the coming weeks.

The price of the first one goes up in 5 days, so don't leave it weeks!
 
> Regards,
> 
> -Roberto
> 

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#263512

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:58 PM Charles Curley
<charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:
>
> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
> router/gateway computer.
>
> It should run Debian.
>
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
>
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
>
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
>
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
>
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
>
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.

It sounds like you want an all-in-one of sorts. Something with
hardware+software. I don't have a recommendation for that.

However, if you would like a piece of hardware that checks most of the
boxes and can run whatever you like, then I recommend you look at
Protectli. They make low power, fanless, mini pc's with multiple
ethernet ports. You can choose between 2, 4 and 6 ports.
<https://protectli.com/> and
<https://www.amazon.com/stores/Protectli/page/532343EA-BBD8-4423-87A6-08A76E28A16F>.

Protectli devices are typically used as firewalls. In fact, I use one
running pfSense as a firewall behind my ISP's router. I am very
pleased with it.

On the downside, Protectli does not have open hardware design or use
OpenFirmware. Those gadgets are a little harder to find.

Jeff

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#263514

Charles Curley wrote: 
> It should run Debian.
> 
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
> 
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
> 
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
> 
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
> 
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
> 
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.

I bought one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Firewall-Appliance-HUNSN-Barebone-Storage/dp/B0B53MKZBX/
(4 x 2.5Gb NICs, N5105 CPU) -- I paid about $250 including 16GB
RAM and a 500GB SSD. Works very nicely.

For about $70 less you can get them with 2x 2.5Gb instead of 4;
for a little more money you can get up to 5x 2.5Gb NICs.

You can add wifi via a miniPCIe slot; I didn't bother. There are
antenna holes.

-dsr-

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#263564

On 14/11/23 08:42, Dan Ritter wrote:
> I bought one of these: 
> https://www.amazon.com/Firewall-Appliance-HUNSN-Barebone-Storage/dp/B0B53MKZBX/ 
> (4 x 2.5Gb NICs, N5105 CPU) -- I paid about $250 including 16GB RAM 
> and a 500GB SSD. Works very nicely. For about $70 less you can get 
> them with 2x 2.5Gb instead of 4; for a little more money you can get 
> up to 5x 2.5Gb NICs. You can add wifi via a miniPCIe slot; I didn't 
> bother. There are


The reality is that for a basic router function you don't need very much 
hardware and certainly don't need fans. All the commercial Chinese 
routers demonstrate that.

I've seen various comments on this thread advocating for NUC devices 
with and without fans. In my view they are way overkill.

I have progressed over a couple of decades with different fanless router 
technology starting with PCengines (current product is the APU2 
https://pcengines.ch/apu2.htm )

Since then I have used a variety of Chinese ARM based SBC computers with 
RAM as low as 512K. I changed them as networking speed increased and the 
current generations are now capable of running multiple 2.5G LAN 
interfaces and usually have USB3 interfaces and often HDMI

Some of them also provide inbuilt PCIe M.2 drive slots that run at very 
impressive transfer speeds.

My current favourites are RK3588 based CPU SBC devices which have an 
exceptionally fast set of CPUs, high speed networking, and options for 
Debian or Ubuntu or OpenWRT or Armbian. They can provide a network 
storage service as well as a highly capable firewall Ipv4/IPv6 
function,with  DNS, DHCP, mail gateway, VPN gateway etc.

These things cost under $100USD including a nice heatsink case and 
8-16GB RAM.

Incidentally I live in Australia and don't have airconditioning and it 
gets up to 35C inside some days. The units I use have never gone into 
thermal shutdown.

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#263566

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:04:55 +0800
jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> wrote:

> My current favourites are RK3588 based CPU SBC devices which have an 
> exceptionally fast set of CPUs, high speed networking, and options
> for Debian or Ubuntu or OpenWRT or Armbian. They can provide a
> network storage service as well as a highly capable firewall
> Ipv4/IPv6 function,with  DNS, DHCP, mail gateway, VPN gateway etc.
> 
> These things cost under $100USD including a nice heatsink case and 
> 8-16GB RAM.

Nice. Can you point me at any specific vendors? I found the four
US vendors mentioned in https://pcengines.ch/order.htm. You've already
mentioned Friendly Elec.
https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#263567

On 16/11/23 10:15, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:04:55 +0800
> jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My current favourites are RK3588 based CPU SBC devices which have an
>> exceptionally fast set of CPUs, high speed networking, and options
>> for Debian or Ubuntu or OpenWRT or Armbian. They can provide a
>> network storage service as well as a highly capable firewall
>> Ipv4/IPv6 function,with  DNS, DHCP, mail gateway, VPN gateway etc.
>>
>> These things cost under $100USD including a nice heatsink case and
>> 8-16GB RAM.
> Nice. Can you point me at any specific vendors? I found the four
> US vendors mentioned in https://pcengines.ch/order.htm. You've already
> mentioned Friendly Elec.
> https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69
>

The FriendlyElec boards are the most suitable as they have two or more 
LAN interfaces.

Alternatives are possible if you use a USB3 to LAN adaptor, so OrangePi 
and Rock Pi are options. The Orange Pi 5 is getting a lot of interest, 
but spec wise the FriendlyElec NanoPi devices equal or out perform it 
plus have multiple LAN

If I was after just a router I'd look at the NanoPi R6C 
https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=291

or for a DMZ implementation with 3 LAN, NanoPi R6S 
https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=289 
- which breaks the $100 barrier

You can even go down a notch and look at the R5 and R4 series, but the 
price difference is not that great

If you want a full fledged PC with inbuilt PCIe NVME Drive and two LANS  
and plugabble wifi the NanoPC-T6 fits the bill. 
https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=292

(I have a T6 for development work, a M4V2 for a lan server, and an R4 
for router)

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#263581

On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 09:04 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
> My current favourites are RK3588 based CPU SBC devices which have an 
> exceptionally fast set of CPUs, high speed networking, and options for 
> Debian or Ubuntu or OpenWRT or Armbian. 

Are these the usual SBC setup where you have to run the vendor kernel,
plus possibly other custom bits, or would pure Debian including kernel
run on them?

I'm currently running a Globalscale SheevaPlug and a DreamPlugs but
Debian support for the old ARM architecture is likely to end soon.
(Dropping it seems to come up each release, but so far they're still
releasing for it.)

-- 
Tixy

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#263582

On 16/11/23 15:40, Tixy wrote:
> On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 09:04 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
>> My current favourites are RK3588 based CPU SBC devices which have an
>> exceptionally fast set of CPUs, high speed networking, and options for
>> Debian or Ubuntu or OpenWRT or Armbian.
> Are these the usual SBC setup where you have to run the vendor kernel,
> plus possibly other custom bits, or would pure Debian including kernel
> run on them?


The FriendlyPC version run a vendor version of Debian with some packages 
especially compiled for the device such as ffmpeg and graphics drivers

Armbian is usually a bit slower in releases and produces a more 
canonical Debian version with differences in the SBC specific device 
drivers using dynamic overlays. Most packages are pure debian

The Armbian kernel is a variation on Debian but you can cross compile it 
on an X86 debian system if you need specific kernal mods - though 
generally the Armbian kernel doesn't need any changes.

This is from my Armbian Router using my fastest mirror which is in Singapore

root@edge:/etc/apt# cat sources.list
#deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 12.0.0 _Bookworm_ - Official amd64 DVD 
Binary-1 with firmware 20230610-10:23]/ bookworm main non-free-firm>

deb http://mirror.djvg.sg/debian/ bookworm main non-free-firmware
deb-src http://mirror.djvg.sg/debian/ bookworm main non-free-firmware

deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main 
non-free-firmware
deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security 
main non-free-firmware

# bookworm-updates, to get updates before a point release is made;
# see 
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_updates_and_backports
deb http://mirror.djvg.sg/debian/ bookworm-updates main non-free-firmware
deb-src http://mirror.djvg.sg/debian/ bookworm-updates main 
non-free-firmware

deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free


root@edge:/etc/apt/sources.list.d# cat armbian.list
deb [signed-by=/usr/share/keyrings/armbian.gpg] http://apt.armbian.com 
bookworm main bookworm-utils bookworm-desktop

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#263603

On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 15:56 +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:
> The FriendlyPC version run a vendor version of Debian with some packages 
> especially compiled for the device such as ffmpeg and graphics drivers
> 
> Armbian is usually a bit slower in releases and produces a more 
> canonical Debian version with differences in the SBC specific device 
> drivers using dynamic overlays. Most packages are pure debian
<snip>

Thanks for replying. I'm just want something to act as a router, NAS
using NFS, and SMTP/IMAP sever for my email. I.e. Ethernet, USB and
SATA. What I have at the moment works finem its just that when Debian
drops support for the armel architecture I'm going to have to fork out
for new hardware, so am keeping my eye out for cheap options.

Another alternative is to just build armel myself. That might work for
the first release after the architecture is dropped, assuming it isn't
dropped for some major region, like broken compilers etc.

-- 
Tixy

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