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Debian installer with a newer kernel

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  Debian installer with a newer kernel Christian Britz <cbritz@t-online.de> - 2022-04-14 11:20 +0200
    Re: Debian installer with a newer kernel "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-04-14 12:10 +0200
      Re: Debian installer with a newer kernel Christian Britz <cbritz@t-online.de> - 2022-04-14 12:30 +0200
        Re: Debian installer with a newer kernel Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2022-04-14 17:20 +0200
          Re: Debian installer with a newer kernel Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2022-04-14 20:20 +0200
            Re: Debian installer with a newer kernel Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2022-04-14 20:50 +0200

#247216 — Debian installer with a newer kernel

Hello dear Debianists,

if a new system has at least basic hardware support by the kernel
provided by the Debian installer, you can solve many hardware problems
by installing a newer kernel from backports after the system setup.

Is there a solution for the case where the installer kernel is too old
for core components like storage system support? Is there a way to use
the installer itself with a backports kernel?

Regards,
Christian
-- 
http://www.cb-fraggle.de

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#247219

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 11:16:00AM +0200, Christian Britz wrote:
> Hello dear Debianists,
> 
> if a new system has at least basic hardware support by the kernel
> provided by the Debian installer, you can solve many hardware problems
> by installing a newer kernel from backports after the system setup.
> 
> Is there a solution for the case where the installer kernel is too old
> for core components like storage system support? Is there a way to use
> the installer itself with a backports kernel?
> 
> Regards,
> Christian
> -- 
> http://www.cb-fraggle.de
>

This is a hard one: the kernel, initial ram disk and firmware are all fairly
closely aligned in the install medium.

If you can get through much of the installer with the d-i kernel:

You may be able to drop down to a shell in the target environment - edit /etc/apt/sources.list to add the backports repository.

At the end, just before you exit - drop to the target shell once again and apt
install the new kernel and newer firmware.

Rerun the grub-install step just to check - then exit.

As you reboot, so the backports kernel should be first.

If graphics card configuration/firmware is an issue: text mode expert install
may well help - the text mode install tries to find compatible VESA modes.

In some sense: this is the issue of very new hardware - for any distribution -
and there's no good clear answer. Debian - on a two year release cycle now,
more or less - is at least ahead of Red Hat where the distribution may have
to be kept stable in kernel version and ABI but  current for ten years
afterwards.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

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#247220

Thank you for your good hints, Andrew. My approach is different.

I am in the lucky position that the question is of theoretical interest
to me this time only, in the past I had cases where I had to use
testing, because the kernel of the installer was too old to support
basic functions of my hardware.

On IRC I was recommended to build a custom image of the d-i. This was
actually provided as a service in the past at
https://kmuto.jp/debian/d-i/ but has been discontinued since long.

I found a short description for changing the d-i kernel at
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Modify/CustomKernel. I guess it
should work, as long as the kernel is not too new for the rest of the
system.

I think it would be great to provide such a (semi-)official support for
backported kernels in the installer again. There is probably a
significant number of users which use testing, just because they can't
install stable on their systems.

Regards,
Christian

On 2022-04-14 12:00 UTC+0200, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 11:16:00AM +0200, Christian Britz wrote:
>> Hello dear Debianists,
>>
>> if a new system has at least basic hardware support by the kernel
>> provided by the Debian installer, you can solve many hardware problems
>> by installing a newer kernel from backports after the system setup.
>>
>> Is there a solution for the case where the installer kernel is too old
>> for core components like storage system support? Is there a way to use
>> the installer itself with a backports kernel?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christian
>> -- 
>> http://www.cb-fraggle.de
>>
> 
> This is a hard one: the kernel, initial ram disk and firmware are all fairly
> closely aligned in the install medium.
> 
> If you can get through much of the installer with the d-i kernel:
> 
> You may be able to drop down to a shell in the target environment - edit /etc/apt/sources.list to add the backports repository.
> 
> At the end, just before you exit - drop to the target shell once again and apt
> install the new kernel and newer firmware.
> 
> Rerun the grub-install step just to check - then exit.
> 
> As you reboot, so the backports kernel should be first.
> 
> If graphics card configuration/firmware is an issue: text mode expert install
> may well help - the text mode install tries to find compatible VESA modes.
> 
> In some sense: this is the issue of very new hardware - for any distribution -
> and there's no good clear answer. Debian - on a two year release cycle now,
> more or less - is at least ahead of Red Hat where the distribution may have
> to be kept stable in kernel version and ABI but  current for ten years
> afterwards.
> 
> All the very best, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater
> 

-- 
http://www.cb-fraggle.de

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#247221

> I think it would be great to provide such a (semi-)official support for
> backported kernels in the installer again.  There is probably a
> significant number of users which use testing, just because they can't
> install stable on their systems.

Another approach is to use the "Debian testing" installer and later
adjust the system to "Debian stable".  Maybe the network installer could
be improved to offer that as an option.


        Stefan

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#247224

On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 11:18 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > I think it would be great to provide such a (semi-)official support
> > for
> > backported kernels in the installer again.  There is probably a
> > significant number of users which use testing, just because they
> > can't
> > install stable on their systems.
> 
> Another approach is to use the "Debian testing" installer and later
> adjust the system to "Debian stable". 

Package downgrades aren't supported, and I don't expect what you
suggest would go well.

-- 
Tixy

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#247225

Tixy [2022-04-14 19:19:25] wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-04-14 at 11:18 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> > I think it would be great to provide such a (semi-)official support
>> > for
>> > backported kernels in the installer again.  There is probably a
>> > significant number of users which use testing, just because they
>> > can't
>> > install stable on their systems.
>> Another approach is to use the "Debian testing" installer and later
>> adjust the system to "Debian stable". 
> Package downgrades aren't supported, and I don't expect what you
> suggest would go well.

Indeed with the current system you'd have to perform a downgrade, but if
this was taken seriously it would just mean that the Debian installer
would become somewhat independent from the release it installs which
should not be too hard to do technically.


        Stefan

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