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  changed file while editing mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2021-12-10 23:40 +0100
    Re: changed file while editing David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-12-11 02:20 +0100
      Re: changed file while editing mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2021-12-11 02:40 +0100
    Re: changed file while editing David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-12-11 04:10 +0100
      Re: changed file while editing David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-12-11 07:40 +0100
        Re: changed file while editing David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-12-11 20:00 +0100
          Re: changed file while editing Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-12-16 21:40 +0100
          Re: changed file while editing David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-12-17 04:40 +0100
        Re: changed file while editing David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-12-11 20:50 +0100
          Re: changed file while editing "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-12-12 00:10 +0100
            Re: changed file while editing Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-12-12 00:30 +0100
              Re: changed file while editing The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-12-12 00:30 +0100
                Re: changed file while editing David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-12-12 01:40 +0100
                WM focus, was Re: changed file while editing David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-12-12 03:00 +0100
                  Re: WM focus, was Re: changed file while editing <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-12-12 09:30 +0100
              Re: changed file while editing "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-12-12 18:40 +0100
          Re: changed file while editing Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-12-12 10:00 +0100

#242931 — changed file while editing

hello
please excuse basic lack of understanding.
I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
recently I try to get used to Nano.
In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something, 
the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file I'm 
editing in other virtual terminal.
Which is distressing.
I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I 
didn't know about.
What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder if 
opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it gets 
mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
Any explanation for that ?

mick
-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#242937

On 12/10/21 2:37 PM, mick crane wrote:
> hello
> please excuse basic lack of understanding.
> I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
> Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
> recently I try to get used to Nano.
> In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something, 
> the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file I'm 
> editing in other virtual terminal.
> Which is distressing.
> I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I 
> didn't know about.
> What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder if 
> opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it gets 
> mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
> Any explanation for that ?
> 
> mick


Are you using console virtual terminals or are you running a graphical 
desktop?


I have two computers with Xfce graphical desktops:

2021-12-10 17:06:57 dpchrist@tinkywinky ~
$ cat /etc/debian_version ; uname -a ; dpkg-query -W xfce4 nano
9.13
Linux tinkywinky 4.9.0-16-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.272-2 (2021-07-19) 
x86_64 GNU/Linux
nano	2.7.4-1
xfce4	4.12.3

2021-12-10 17:07:02 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ cat /etc/debian_version ; uname -a ; dpkg-query -W xfce4 nano
11.1
Linux laalaa 5.10.0-9-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.70-1 (2021-09-30) x86_64 
GNU/Linux
nano	5.4-2
xfce4	4.16


Please run the above command on your computer (adjust for desktop, 
ornone), and post your console session (prompt, command entered, output 
obtained).


I tested nano(1) on both of the above computers by opening two Xfce 
Terminal instances, editing 'foo' with nano(1) in one terminal, and 
editing 'bar' in another terminal.  I did not see typing in one nano(1) 
instance affect the other instance.


David

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#242938

On 2021-12-11 01:10, David Christensen wrote:
> On 12/10/21 2:37 PM, mick crane wrote:
>> hello
>> please excuse basic lack of understanding.
>> I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
>> Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
>> recently I try to get used to Nano.
>> In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something, 
>> the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file 
>> I'm editing in other virtual terminal.
>> Which is distressing.
>> I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I 
>> didn't know about.
>> What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder 
>> if opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it 
>> gets mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
>> Any explanation for that ?
>> 
>> mick
> 
> 
> Are you using console virtual terminals or are you running a graphical 
> desktop?

Is the virtual terminals you get in the xfce desktop

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#242939

On Fri 10 Dec 2021 at 22:37:22 (+0000), mick crane wrote:
> hello
> please excuse basic lack of understanding.
> I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
> Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
> recently I try to get used to Nano.
> In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something,
> the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file
> I'm editing in other virtual terminal.
> Which is distressing.
> I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I
> didn't know about.
> What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder
> if opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it
> gets mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
> Any explanation for that ?

Well, I know nothing about XFCE terminals, but the obvious thing to
check first is that your TERM settings are correct, otherwise the
terminals, and nano, might not agree with you on where the cursor
is, and where any inserted characters are heading for.

^L is always useful for restoring some sort of sanity, but only for
as long as it remains the last keystroke you typed.

If that's not the cause, then I think a more precise narrative is
necessary for understanding what it is that you're actually doing.

Advanced notice of next suggestion: are you typing vim commands
into nano? (Easily done.)

Cheers,
David.

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#242949

On 12/10/21 7:44 PM, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 03:07, David Wright wrote:
>> On Fri 10 Dec 2021 at 22:37:22 (+0000), mick crane wrote:
>>> hello
>>> please excuse basic lack of understanding.
>>> I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
>>> Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
>>> recently I try to get used to Nano.
>>> In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something,
>>> the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file
>>> I'm editing in other virtual terminal.
>>> Which is distressing.
>>> I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I
>>> didn't know about.
>>> What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder
>>> if opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it
>>> gets mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
>>> Any explanation for that ?
>>
>> Well, I know nothing about XFCE terminals, but the obvious thing to
>> check first is that your TERM settings are correct, otherwise the
>> terminals, and nano, might not agree with you on where the cursor
>> is, and where any inserted characters are heading for.
>>
>> ^L is always useful for restoring some sort of sanity, but only for
>> as long as it remains the last keystroke you typed.
>>
>> If that's not the cause, then I think a more precise narrative is
>> necessary for understanding what it is that you're actually doing.
>>
>> Advanced notice of next suggestion: are you typing vim commands
>> into nano? (Easily done.)
> 
> I do find myself going to type Esc i and Esc d a bit.
> When I closed all the terminals down there was something about a 
> background process is still running.
> I think I must have started some process was alive in the other terminal 
> somehow.
> Was very disconcerting.
> There was something about the terminal shortcuts overriding other 
> shortcuts in MC as well and I think I've disabled all the terminal 
> shortcuts via the graphical xfce xterm settings menu


I adjust the Xfce Terminal settings by opening a Terminal, 
right-clicking on the Terminal window, and clicking Preferences on the 
pop-up menu:

General
   Command
     Run command as login shell -> check
     Run a custom command instead of my shell -> uncheck
   Scrolling
     Scroll on output -> uncheck
     Scroll on keystroke -> check
     Scrollbar is -> On the right side
     Unlimited scrollback -> check
Appearance
   Font
     -> Monospace Regular 9
     Use system font -> uncheck
     Allow bold text -> uncheck
   Opening New Windows
     Display menubar in new windows -> uncheck
     Display toolbar in new windows -> uncheck
     Display borders around new windows -> check
Compatibility
   Backspace key generates -> Auto-detect
   Delete key generates -> Auto-detect
   Ambiguous-width characters -> Narrow
Advanced
   Encoding
     Default character encoding -> Default (ANSI_X3.4-1968)
   Shortcuts
     Disable all menu access keys -> check
     Disable menu shortcut key -> check
     Disable help window shortcut key -> check
   Misc
     Use middle mouse click to close tabs -> uncheck
     Auto-hide mount pointer -> check
     Rewrap terminal contents on resize -> check
     Automatically copy select to clipboard -> uncheck


David

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#242972

On 12/11/21 7:29 AM, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 06:34, David Christensen wrote:
>> On 12/10/21 7:44 PM, mick crane wrote:

>>>> On Fri 10 Dec 2021 at 22:37:22 (+0000), mick crane wrote:
>>>>> hello
>>>>> please excuse basic lack of understanding.
>>>>> I try to write some program in Perl I would find useful.
>>>>> Use of editing is very basic and usually I get by with vi/vim
>>>>> recently I try to get used to Nano.
>>>>> In another virtual terminal if copy one file to another or something,
>>>>> the command line words just now got randomly inserted into the file
>>>>> I'm editing in other virtual terminal.
>>>>> Which is distressing.
>>>>> I'm hoping it's just fat fingers and I managed to make some macro I
>>>>> didn't know about.
>>>>> What bothers me is that it seems random where the words go and wonder
>>>>> if opening 2 files in Nano share the same buffer or something and it
>>>>> gets mixed up. Is not a problem I saw before.
>>>>> Any explanation for that ?

>>> There was something about the terminal shortcuts overriding other 
>>> shortcuts in MC as well and I think I've disabled all the terminal 
>>> shortcuts via the graphical xfce xterm settings menu
>>
>>
>> I adjust the Xfce Terminal settings by opening a Terminal,
>> right-clicking on the Terminal window, and clicking Preferences on the
>> pop-up menu:
> 
>>   Misc
>>     Use middle mouse click to close tabs -> uncheck
>>     Auto-hide mount pointer -> check
>>     Rewrap terminal contents on resize -> check
>>     Automatically copy select to clipboard -> uncheck
>>
>>
> Mine are a bit different there, have
> Use middle mouse click to close tabs
> use middle mouse click to open URLS
> Auto hide mouse pointer
> Open new tab to the right of the active tab
> Audible bell
> Visual bell
> all unchecked except for Auto hide mouse pointer.
> it happens again, bits of words from elsewhere in the file randomly 
> inserted into the file.
> It's not garbage so I don't think is disk corruption or memory.
> As is executable I sometimes run in other virtual terminal while opened 
> in nano.
> Would that cause it?
> The other thing is I installed gd, think is called, and sometimes if 
> want to copy a single line and change one letter I shift and drag 
> pointer over the line then middle click to paste.
> Dunno if that could do it. never happened in vi/vim or happened before 
> yesterday.
> 
> mick


Have you verified your hardware -- e.g. power supply tester, memory 
diagnostic, HDD/SSD diagnostic, etc.?


When a computer gets to the point that it is doing weird things that I 
cannot understand, troubleshoot, or fix, I download the OS installer of 
choice, burn it to USB, make sure my configuration files are checked in 
to CVS, backup my data, remove the system disk, insert a blank system 
disk, do a fresh install, take an image of the system disk, boot, check 
out the old configuration files to a side directory, edit the new 
configuration files (rebooting and testing as I proceed), and restore 
data.  This is the only way I know to get a "clean", and hopefully 
reliable, OS image.


David

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#243192

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 06:04:05PM +0000, mick crane wrote:
> Is it at all possible that running Perl executable file somehow shares the
> same memory as same file opened in vi and they get jumbled?

No.  Each process has its own private memory space.

Even if you WROTE to the file (via perl or any other program), the
editing buffer you've already got opened in vi would not change, until
you explicitly tell vi to re-read the file from disk.

So when you add the notion of perl somehow ACCIDENTALLY writing to a
random file, it's just doubly nonsense.

Your problem description so far has been very hard to understand.  It's
not clear to me WHAT you are seeing, or why you've reached the conclusions
that you've reached.

I would start by trying to identify the LAYER where the error is
occurring.  This could be the X (or Wayland?) display system.  Or the
terminal emulator which uses the display system.  Or the editor which
uses the terminal emulator.  (Hint: it's probably not the editor.)

The first thing I'd do, when I see the problem happen again, would be
to ask the editor to redraw the contents of the terminal.  In vi, this
is done by pressing Ctrl-L while in command mode.  You should see a
very brief flash as the terminal's contents are wiped, and then recreated.

Editors have this command because they run on terminals, and terminals
were traditionally connected via RS-232 serial lines, either hard-wired
inside a building, or with a modem involved.  When a modem is involved,
there is a phenomenon called "line noise" which frequently causes extra
characters to be printed on the terminal wherever the cursor happens to
be.  You can ignore these for a while, but if they start to accumulate,
or if you're especially bothered by them, you just request a screen redraw.

If redrawing the screen within the editor fixes the problem, then the
problem was most likely extra characters that had been written onto the
terminal.  At that point, you can try to discover what wrote them, but
it might not be easy to do so.  Anything with appropriate privileges can
open one of your terminals and write to it.  This would include any program
you're running, but also things like the kernel broadcasting an emergency
message to every terminal.  (I doubt the latter is the case for you, as
you seem to be saying this is a frequent occurrence, and that you don't
recognize the unexpected content.  Maybe.  It's hard to understand what
you're saying.)

If redrawing the screen doesn't do anything, then I'd try to figure out
the nature of the unexpected content.  Is it whole characters?  Like,
could you -- in theory -- run commands from a different terminal which
would move the cursor and write characters on the mangled terminal, and
get the results that you see?

Or is it misplaced pixels, rather than whole characters?  Do you see pieces
of window manager borders, parts of characters, and stuff like that?

If you're seeing pixel-level stuff, that points toward an issue at the X
or Wayland level, possibly bogus drivers or firmware.  Or even bad hardware.

If it's misplaced whole characters, which are not fixed by redrawing the
screen within the editor, then that sounds like a bug in your terminal
emulator.

Another simple test to perform would be to MOVE the window around.  Does
this change the unexpected content, or does it move around with the window?

Be specific and detailed about what you do.  Be clear in how you describe
things.  Otherwise, we can't help you.

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#243214

On 12/16/21 10:04 AM, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 18:58, David Christensen wrote:
> 
>> When a computer gets to the point that it is doing weird things that I
>> cannot understand, troubleshoot, or fix, I download the OS installer
>> of choice, burn it to USB, make sure my configuration files are
>> checked in to CVS, backup my data, remove the system disk, insert a
>> blank system disk, do a fresh install, take an image of the system
>> disk, boot, check out the old configuration files to a side directory,
>> edit the new configuration files (rebooting and testing as I proceed),
>> and restore data.  This is the only way I know to get a "clean", and
>> hopefully reliable, OS image.
> 
> lovely.
> 
> I've used vi for the last 3 days and it's happened once instead of 
> multiple times.


Assuming the bug is in Debian, it's not Nano and it's not Vi.  But Nano 
somehow increases the bug frequency.  And, the intermittent nature leads 
me to believe it is a race condition.  So, it's likely to be down deep 
(e.g. IRQ device driver).


> I'd love it to be user error, well to know what the use error is, but 
> I've been using basic editing with vi/vim for years and this never 
> happened before.
> Is it at all possible that running Perl executable file somehow shares 
> the same memory as same file opened in vi and they get jumbled?


I seriously doubt it.


> I don't understand why the error is random words from elsewhere in the 
> file get randomly inserted as opposed to garbage.


My guess is that the bug is somewhere in the keyboard and mouse input 
stacks.


> I'm inclined to get another PC and see if it still does it.


Whatever you can do to isolate the problem, go for it.


Are using a KVM switch?  I have an IOGEAR GCS78KIT.  It has a power 
adapter, but can obtain power from any connected computer that provides 
power.  Several of my computers do, so the KVM switch is power cycled 
only infrequently (when I take the time to disconnect everything, wait 2 
minutes, then reconnect everything).  Over long periods (months? 
years?), it can start producing weird UI bugs.  I need to bypass it, 
connect my keyboard, monitor, and mouse directly to a computer with an 
OS/ applications disk under test, use it for an hour or more, see if the 
problems exhibit, try another disk and/or machine, etc.


Another potential problem is my PS/2 to USB adapters -- IOGEAR GUC100KM 
(older) and GUC10KM (newer).  I have not seen the random UI weirdness 
with these, but the newer model tends to lose the connection when the 
computer powers down (e.g. keyboard and mouse do not work on next boot; 
I must disconnect the adapter from everything and hot-plug everything to 
the booted computer).


David

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#242975

On Sat 11 Dec 2021 at 15:29:02 (+0000), mick crane wrote:

> Mine are a bit different there, have
> Use middle mouse click to close tabs
> use middle mouse click to open URLS
> Auto hide mouse pointer
> Open new tab to the right of the active tab
> Audible bell
> Visual bell
> all unchecked except for Auto hide mouse pointer.

No comment on that, as I don't use a DE.

> it happens again, bits of words from elsewhere in the file randomly
> inserted into the file.
> It's not garbage so I don't think is disk corruption or memory.

Once again, you don't say whether these bits of words appear
at random /times/, or in response to your keystrokes or mouseclicks
or even mouse movements.

> As is executable

eh?

I sometimes run in other virtual terminal while
> opened in nano.
> Would that cause it?

If I understand you correctly, then of course not. You should be able
to run any number of different tasks at the same time, and switch
between them at will, without the system getting confused.

> The other thing is I installed gd, think is called, and sometimes if
> want to copy a single line and change one letter I shift and drag
> pointer over the line then middle click to paste.
> Dunno if that could do it. never happened in vi/vim or happened before
> yesterday.

I don't want to try to guess what it is you're running in this
paragraph. So I'll ignore it, and carry on about nano.

Before I continue, I'll warn you that I don't tend to configure
editors to react to mouseclicks. So, for example, when I drag
the mouse across some text in nano, the cursor does not move,
but remains wherever it was. If I now paste that text with a
mouseclick, the text gets inserted at that same cursor position,
and /not/ at the place where you click the paste button. That
/might/ appear to be "random" to someone who's used to having
the text pasted at the position where they clicked the mouse.
So I suggest you check whether the placement of your "bits of
words" can be explained in this way.

Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because
I prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it
(no precision required). Click-to-focus has the odd effect of
allowing keystrokes to be sent to one window while the mouse
is actually in another window. You can even type text which
can't be seen because a different window occludes it. Can you
see clearly which window has focus on your system?

Cheers,
David.

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#242980

On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
> Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because
> I prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it
> (no precision required).

I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#242982

On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:18:32PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
> > Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because
> > I prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it
> > (no precision required).
> 
> I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?

It's a feature of your window manager.  Some WMs offer it, and some do
not.  Some offer multiple modes, and you can configure things to use the
mode you prefer.

It's specific to your WM.  How you configure it (if there is any choice)
is specific to your WM.  Could be a thing you click, could be a line you
put into a text config file, could be *anything*.

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#242983

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2021-12-11 at 18:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:18:32PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr.
> wrote:
> 
>> On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
>> 
>>> Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because I
>>> prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it (no
>>> precision required).
>> 
>> I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?
> 
> It's a feature of your window manager.  Some WMs offer it, and some
> do not.  Some offer multiple modes, and you can configure things to
> use the mode you prefer.
> 
> It's specific to your WM.  How you configure it (if there is any
> choice) is specific to your WM.  Could be a thing you click, could be
> a line you put into a text config file, could be *anything*.

FWIW in case it helps in looking: in my limited experience with
configuring and reading about this feature, it's tended to be formally
called "focus follows mouse" or "focus follows pointer".

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#242985

On 12/11/21 3:24 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 at 18:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:18:32PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr.
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because I
>>>> prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it (no
>>>> precision required).
>>>
>>> I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?
>>
>> It's a feature of your window manager.  Some WMs offer it, and some
>> do not.  Some offer multiple modes, and you can configure things to
>> use the mode you prefer.
>>
>> It's specific to your WM.  How you configure it (if there is any
>> choice) is specific to your WM.  Could be a thing you click, could be
>> a line you put into a text config file, could be *anything*.
> 
> FWIW in case it helps in looking: in my limited experience with
> configuring and reading about this feature, it's tended to be formally
> called "focus follows mouse" or "focus follows pointer".


See Xfce Applications Menu -> Settings -> Windows Manager -> Focus -> 
Focus model.  There are two choices:

* Click to focus (what I use)
* Focus follows mouse


There is a slider "Delay before window receives focus".  I leave that at 
default (~15%).


David

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#242987 — WM focus, was Re: changed file while editing

On Sat 11 Dec 2021 at 18:24:46 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 at 18:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:18:32PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> >> On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because I
> >>> prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it (no
> >>> precision required).
> >> 
> >> I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?
> > 
> > It's a feature of your window manager.  Some WMs offer it, and some
> > do not.  Some offer multiple modes, and you can configure things to
> > use the mode you prefer.
> > 
> > It's specific to your WM.  How you configure it (if there is any
> > choice) is specific to your WM.  Could be a thing you click, could be
> > a line you put into a text config file, could be *anything*.
> 
> FWIW in case it helps in looking: in my limited experience with
> configuring and reading about this feature, it's tended to be formally
> called "focus follows mouse" or "focus follows pointer".

Looked at in detail, it can get quite complicated. For example,
a window might never accept focus, accept focus, take focus from
it's parent (like a dialog box), or, rather rudely, just grab
focus regardless (like some popups).

If they accept focus, they might require a click, or they may not.
If they do, they might pass that click to the application for
acting upon, or they might just throw it away (because it was just
a FocusClick to take focus). The FocusClick might also raise the
window to top (or a close to top as it was allowed to be), or it
might not. (And that leaves aside windows that raise themselves
just by having the mouse pass over them.)

When the mouse leaves a window and enters another that /could/
accept focus, the previous window could retain focus until you
actively take it away (what fvwm calls SloppyFocus).

And that leaves out keystrokes that circulate focus round a
population of windows (those that accept it), also whether a
deliberately created new window should have focus.

How much of this is exposed to the user will vary according to
the WM being used, and what's put in the configuration file.
It sounds as if some people's are quite limited.

A WM like fvwm is extremely configurable with its textual
fvwmrc file; so much so that there have long been examples
floating round on the internet for people to base theirs on.
Writing one from scratch would be quite challenging, but
there's no need as the system one has hooks for tweaking it.

BTW there are some standards in this area, but I think they
make dry reading. One that fvwm mentions is the ICCCM, and
another is EWMH.

Cheers,
David.

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#242997 — Re: WM focus, was Re: changed file while editing

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On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 07:58:18PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 11 Dec 2021 at 18:24:46 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote:

[...]

> Looked at in detail, it can get quite complicated. For example,
> a window might never accept focus, accept focus, take focus from
> it's parent (like a dialog box), or, rather rudely, just grab
> focus regardless (like some popups).

And then, there are those @#*&$! [1] applications, which, whithin them,
insist on dictating their own focus policy (and hallucinating they are
*THE* window manager (browsers, I'm looking at you, specifically).

Cheers

[1] Censored, because I'm unable to find terms both compatible with my
   genuine feelings and with a civilised discourse.

-- 
tomás

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#243021

On Saturday 11 December 2021 06:20:16 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:18:32PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 December 2021 02:39:06 pm David Wright wrote:
> > > Another facility that I don't use is "click-to-focus", because
> > > I prefer to focus a window just by shoving the mouse inside it
> > > (no precision required).
> > 
> > I prefer this as well.  Where is this set?
> 
> It's a feature of your window manager.  Some WMs offer it, and some do
> not.  Some offer multiple modes, and you can configure things to use the
> mode you prefer.
> 
> It's specific to your WM.  How you configure it (if there is any choice)
> is specific to your WM.  Could be a thing you click, could be a line you
> put into a text config file, could be *anything*.
 
I'm using Xfce here.  Found it,  and it was on the wrong setting,  now fixed... 



-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#242998

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On Sb, 11 dec 21, 23:17:43, mick crane wrote:
> 
> > > No comment on that, as I don't use a DE.
> Window manager, desktop environment,X I get confused about those.
> You don't have any of the desktop stuff but still can run a browser and that
> ?
> I think I'd like that better.
> Is there stuff you can delete to get that sort of function or need make a
> new installation?

Think of X as the graphical infrastructure required to run any sort of 
GUI program[1].

It is possible to start X and a GUI program directly from the linux text 
console. When you close the program X will shut down as well. If that 
program is something like a terminal emulator you could start more 
programs from within it, but you will have only very limited means to 
switch between or move and resize the windows of various applications.

A window manager is the program responsible for actually managing your 
windows (placement, size, etc.). Using X without one makes sense only in 
special situations, e.g. you only need to start one single application, 
typically in full screen, and do the rest only from within that 
application (Kodi is a good example for this).

Most window managers are pretty bare (the 'do one thing and do it well' 
philosophy), so additional programs will be required for various panels, 
clocks, menus, etc. Starting all of these (in the right order) is what 
is typically referred to as an 'X session'.

A desktop environment is basically just a (more or less) integrated 
collection of all these tools + file manager, terminal emulator, etc. 
Some also add complex background services to e.g. index all your 
pictures.


[1] let's forget about Wayland for the moment.

Hope this explains,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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