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Please take this as constructive

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  Please take this as constructive "R. Toby  Richards" <tobias.richards@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 07:50 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2022-01-18 08:00 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-01-18 12:10 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-18 14:00 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive Loïc Grenié <loic.grenie@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 14:40 +0100
      Re: Please take this as constructive Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2022-01-18 14:50 +0100
        Re: Please take this as constructive Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 18:00 +0100
          Re: Please take this as constructive Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2022-01-18 19:00 +0100
            Re: Please take this as constructive The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-01-19 04:10 +0100
              Re: Please take this as constructive Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-21 18:30 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2022-01-18 15:00 +0100
      Re: Please take this as constructive Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2022-01-19 11:10 +0100
        Re: Please take this as constructive Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2022-01-21 18:50 +0100
    Re: Please take this as constructive Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-18 15:10 +0100

#244163 — Please take this as constructive

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Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.

Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to
the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.

When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I get
errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
because dpkg doesn't function.

The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg
doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of
dependencies and so forth).

Now what?

-- 

*R. Toby Richards*

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#244164

On 1/18/2022 7:47 AM, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.
>
> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to
> the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
>
> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I get
> errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
> debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
> because dpkg doesn't function.
>
> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg
> doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of
> dependencies and so forth).
>
> Now what?
>

Simply get the driver and give it to the installer or use firmware*.iso.

--
John Doe

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#244171

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On 2022-01-18 at 01:47, R. Toby Richards wrote:

> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the
> solution is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody
> realize that apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get
> install <network drivers> if I don't have network drivers? There are
> DOZENS of responses to questions about network drivers that say to
> apt-get install various packages without any thought to the fact that
> nobody can apt without first having network drivers.

apt-get can install things from a local source (whether CD/DVD or
otherwise), if configured appropriately, so even without networking it
may not be a useless recommendation.

Also, in some cases people will have e.g. wired network drivers but not
wireless ones, so making use of the network access provided by the
former to install the latter - to be able to have network access when
away from the network cable - can be a viable option.

> It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using
> networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking
> that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about
> this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver without
> having a network driver.

The usual solution (aside from reinstalling with firmware present, etc.,
as you've addressed to some degree separately) would indeed be...

> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email
> was dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free
> telephone call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from
> California got to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge
> spools of punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.

...this.

> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I
> get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and 
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for
> the debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix
> dpkg because dpkg doesn't function.

That sounds like a completely different problem, and probably a far more
severe one, which would need to be investigated on its own, and which
might well warrant a full reinstall to fix.

I would recommend starting with trying to troubleshoot and fix *this*
problem, before you worry too much about the other one.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#244179

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 10:47:55PM -0800, R. Toby  Richards wrote:
> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.
> 

A couple of things: Which machine is this? Which model of Broadcom card
is this?

lspci might tell you. Do you have any other means of connecting this machine?

You may have hit a Catch 22 not of our making. There are a wide variety of 
Broadcom chipsets. Broadcom have been approached about this in the past, I 
think. As someone with a Broadcom card, you have the right to download the
drivers: nobody else has the right to distribute them to you.

The Broadcom B43 driver is, effectively, a firmware cutter - chopping the 
needed binary bits out of the Windows drivers.

https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-b43-installer

This then links with firmware-linux-free to provide the bits you need.
Be thankful that you're not running Fedora - despite being more liberal
on many firmware policies, they don't supply utilities to do this.

We do think about doing things with no network driver for wifi. My standard
suggestion is to use the non-free unofficial network installer iso - but 
it can't include the Broadcom drivers, as you've seen.

If you can use a wired network, that solves the install problem and allows
you to download the installer package. If you have a wired network available
but no connector on your laptop, you can use a USB-Ethernet connector if you
have one.

If you can pair a phone via Bluetooth, you might be able to download
the needed .debs that way.

Missing firmware is an issue that now hits not just for WiFi but also now
often for graphics drivers and even audio firmware. There has been talk about
framing a new GR [General resolution] on firmware in the installer, since 
this is rendering Debian uninstallable on certain classes of hardware. In 
this particular instance, that wouldn't help you.

The glib, self-satisfied answer is "Friends don't let friends use Broadcom - 
check the device drivers needed before you buy" and many of us have avoided
the issue by doing that - but you've hit the (known) corner case, I think.

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater
> 
> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg
> doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of
> dependencies and so forth).
> 
> Now what?
> 
> -- 
> 
> *R. Toby Richards*

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#244180

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    Hi,

On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote:

> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.
>
> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to
> the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
>

     I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof,
  and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with
  network access and use sneakernet between the two computers.
  I've always wondered how to do it better.


> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I get
> errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
> debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
> because dpkg doesn't function.
>

     dpkg is a dependency of apt (through apt depends on adduser which
depends on
  {c,}debconf which depends on dpkg). If you do not fix dpkg, you will
probably not
   be able to install anything. To do that you will probably need to boot
on a live
   system and install the missing packages (non-trivial task). FYI, the
dependencies
   I get for dpkg are:

dpkg
gcc-11-base
libacl1
libbz2-1.0
libc6
libgcc-s1
liblzma5
libpcre2-8-0
libselinux1
tar
zlib1g



> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because dpkg
> doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and dependencies of
> dependencies and so forth).
>
> Now what?
>

     Hope you can solve your problems,

         Loïc

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#244181

On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote:

>     Hi,
> 
> On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> 
> > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> > about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> > any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> > drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> > Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> > download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> > the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> > about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.
> >
> > Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> > dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> > call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got to
> > the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> > punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
> >
> 
>      I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof,
>   and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with
>   network access and use sneakernet between the two computers.
>   I've always wondered how to do it better.

Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat.

-- 
Brian.

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#244200

On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 +0000
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote:
> 
> >     Hi,
> > 
> > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> > 
> > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> > > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> > > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> > > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions

...

> >      I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof,
> >   and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with
> >   network access and use sneakernet between the two computers.
> >   I've always wondered how to do it better.
> 
> Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat.

How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one machine?
And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then netcat isn't
really necessary, since the machine connected to the internet can be
configured to route packets to the other one.

Celejar

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#244202

On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 11:50:14 -0500, Celejar wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 +0000
> Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 14:30:45 +0100, Loïc Grenié wrote:
> > 
> > >     Hi,
> > > 
> > > On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 07:48, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> > > > to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> > > > anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> > > > I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> 
> ...
> 
> > >      I've been hit several time with this same problem, or variants thereof,
> > >   and my solution has always been to have a separate computer with
> > >   network access and use sneakernet between the two computers.
> > >   I've always wondered how to do it better.
> > 
> > Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat.
> 
> How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one machine?
> And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then netcat isn't
> really necessary, since the machine connected to the internet can be
> configured to route packets to the other one.

Rhetorical? netcat is obviously dependent on a working network. Thank
you for the second solution to avoiding sneakernet.

-- 
Brian.

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#244206

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On 2022-01-18 at 12:48, Brian wrote:

> On Tue 18 Jan 2022 at 11:50:14 -0500, Celejar wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:47:09 +0000 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>
>> wrote:

>>> Wonder no longer :). Acquaint yourself with netcat.
>> 
>> How is netcat going to help if there's no networking on one
>> machine? And if there is (e.g., using a wired connection), then
>> netcat isn't really necessary, since the machine connected to the
>> internet can be configured to route packets to the other one.
> 
> Rhetorical? netcat is obviously dependent on a working network.

Yes, so since the entire problem is that one of the machines involved
doesn't have a working network, how does netcat help?

> Thank you for the second solution to avoiding sneakernet.

I'm confused. What are you talking about? I don't see any alternative
suggested above, beyond what obviously isn't applicable because it
assumes having a network connection, which as indicated isn't the case.

Unless you mean "e.g., using a wired connection"? It's not clear that
that's an available option in this case, either, although there are
probably a lot of cases where it will be. (I've had the misfortune
recently, in my workplace, of having to image and set up a lot of
laptops which don't come with a wired Ethernet adapter, and most
recently with ones that don't come with an external USB-or-similar
wired-Ethernet adapter dongle either.)

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#244282

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On Ma, 18 ian 22, 22:06:33, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
> Unless you mean "e.g., using a wired connection"? It's not clear that
> that's an available option in this case, either, although there are
> probably a lot of cases where it will be. (I've had the misfortune
> recently, in my workplace, of having to image and set up a lot of
> laptops which don't come with a wired Ethernet adapter, and most
> recently with ones that don't come with an external USB-or-similar
> wired-Ethernet adapter dongle either.)

Dongles might require firmware as well :(

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#244184

> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution is
> to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that apt'ing
> anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network drivers> if
> I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses to questions
> about network drivers that say to apt-get install various packages without
> any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without first having network
> drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off. I've got computers with
> Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix that by using networking to
> download the gosh darn drivers to fix the networking that I don't have? Of
> the dozens of "solutions" that I've read about this, NOBODY ever thinks
> about how to fix the network driver without having a network driver.

Believe me, many people think about these things.
It's just not always easy to fix them.

Here's another way to attack those chicken/egg problems:

Use the installer on a machine OLD that does not suffer from those problems.
Make it so the install writes to a partition you created on a USB key.
On this system do the `apt install firmware-b43-cutter`.
Then clone that partition onto your TARGET machine's main disk.

There are several variations around this theme:

- You may be able to skip the first step if your machine OLD is already
  running Debian so you can directly clone from it (that's what I do most
  of the time, I almost never use Debian's installer).

- You may skip the last step if instead of using a USB key to move the
  data from OLD to TARGET, you take out TARGET's disk and connect it
  to OLD so you install directly onto TARGET's disk.

- Instead of Debian's installer, you can use `(c)debooststrap` or
  `multistrap`.


        Stefan

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#244209

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> Here's another way to attack those chicken/egg problems:

Interesting approach. When I recently installed Debian on a newish
computer I needed some firmware packages and a newer kernel too from
debian-backports. I was able to use my phone connected to USB enough to
complete installation and then install what I needed from
debian-backports and then get online with built in ethernet.

After that I have bought some cheap Linux-compatible USB ethernet and
USB wifi adapters, just in case.

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#244284

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On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 4:06 AM Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> > Here's another way to attack those chicken/egg problems:
>
> Interesting approach. When I recently installed Debian on a newish
> computer I needed some firmware packages and a newer kernel too from
> debian-backports. I was able to use my phone connected to USB enough to
> complete installation and then install what I needed from
> debian-backports and then get online with built in ethernet.
>
> After that I have bought some cheap Linux-compatible USB ethernet and
> USB wifi adapters, just in case.
>
>
My approach to these problems is to sidestep them entirely:
(1) Create an installable USB key on an existing connected machine
(2) Install it on a new machine

Step 1 is much faster if that connected machine is NOT on wifi, but cabled
to your router instead.
You can even do Step 1 on a Win machine, Debian doc tells you how.
And you can even increase your wifi throughput on the newly-installed
machine by just disabling the
wifi port and plugging that network cable directly into the router all the
time. Wifi issues gone :-)

the

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#244186

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On 2022-01-18 01:47, R. Toby Richards wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Every time that I search for solutions to my wifi drivers, the solution
> is to apt-get install a bunch of drivers. Why does nobody realize that
> apt'ing anything is a non-solution: How can I apt-get install <network
> drivers> if I don't have network drivers? There are DOZENS of responses
> to questions about network drivers that say to apt-get install various
> packages without any thought to the fact that nobody can apt without
> first having network drivers. It's seriously starting to **** me off.
> I've got computers with Broadcom wifi. How the heck am I going to fix
> that by using networking to download the gosh darn drivers to fix the
> networking that I don't have? Of the dozens of "solutions" that I've
> read about this, NOBODY ever thinks about how to fix the network driver
> without having a network driver.
> 
> Do I know how to use sneakernet? Yes. In my young adulthood, email was
> dialing into a BBS that would then dial the next closest free telephone
> call to another BBS, and so forth until your message from California got
> to the East Coast. Days. I remember trucks with huge spools of
> punch-cards that were data for the mainframe.
> 
> When I try to use sneakernet to overcome the networking issues then I
> get errors from dpkg that it can't install debs because ldconfig and
> start-stop-daemon aren't available. I haven't bothered searching for the
> debs that provide those things because I cannot use a deb to fix dpkg
> because dpkg doesn't function.
> 
Because you don't install package by using dpkg on the installer cd.

Install your system with missing firmware then use dpkg.

What you can do is to get the firmware on a machine with Internet access
and then copy them to a USB key, insert the USB key when prompted by the
installer and it will use the .bw file needed.

This is how to feed binary firmware to the installer.

You don't install package inside the shell of the installer before
installing the base system on your hard drive.

This is in addition to my last message because seems like I got it
late... You are trying to run dpkg from the installer shell.

For sure it will fail, there's no services management in the proper
sense and even if it would work, all you done would be lost.

(Someone else please give better explanation than I do because I'm a bit
lost trying to explain this in a two sentence where there's so much to
explain and give a complete class on "this is not how things work" and
the install process).

You can also learn how to build your full system using another computer
connected on Internet and using chroot + deb-bootstrap).

Read the documentation on deb-bootstrap and you'll better understand the
install process.

> The catch-22's are endless. In my case, I need Broadcom drivers. I can't
> get b43 over the network. I can't use sneakernet for b43 debs because
> dpkg doesn't work (let alone finding all the dependencies and
> dependencies of dependencies and so forth).
> 
> Now what?
> 
Now you'll learn how the install system work, the question of binary
blob distribution right (exclusive) and be a better system manager...

All by solving your Broadcom card problem.

PS: Buy a directly supported card.
> -- 
> 
> _R. Toby Richards_
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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