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upgrading and stuff

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  upgrading and stuff "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-09-25 23:40 +0200
    Re: upgrading and stuff Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-09-26 00:10 +0200
      Re: upgrading and stuff Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 11:30 +0200
      Re: upgrading and stuff "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-09-26 18:50 +0200
        Re: upgrading and stuff "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-09-26 19:30 +0200
    Re: upgrading and stuff songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-09-26 00:30 +0200
      Re: upgrading and stuff Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-09-26 01:20 +0200
        Re: upgrading and stuff Tim Woodall <debianuser@woodall.me.uk> - 2021-09-26 09:10 +0200
    Re: upgrading and stuff Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-09-26 00:40 +0200
      Re: upgrading and stuff "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-09-26 19:10 +0200
        Re: upgrading and stuff Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-09-26 19:50 +0200
        Re: upgrading and stuff "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-09-26 20:00 +0200
          Re: upgrading and stuff "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2021-09-27 16:30 +0200

#240354 — upgrading and stuff

I've been running Slackware since 1999 or so,  Debian somewhat less than that.  I figured I'd give it a try because I was interested in handling dependencies easier (which it surely does well) and because in looking at so many distros I see a great many of them are "debian-based"...

Lots of differences!  systemd instead of init,  grub instead of LILO,  and probably many more than I'd want to list here.

I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to upgrades.  Mostly it's been a matter of running synaptic package manager from time to time,  and that's about it.  Except that lately it doesn't seem to be finding much of anything to do.  Reading some of the stuff in here,  I suspect that I'm horribly out of date.  Executing "cat /etc/debian-version" returns 8.11!  And there's now apparently a version 11 out now?!  I have followed the advice of some of the posts in this list and consulted the release notes about how one might go about upgrading,  and from the latest on back each one says something to the effect of only being able to upgrade from the last major version,  so if there's a good way to do this whole thing at once I'd sure like to hear about it.

Not much special about this installation,  I have done very little to it that's outside of debian packages,  maybe the odd script here and there.  I do see where they talk about backing stuff up.  Oh yeah,  and I have virtualbox running,  which is where I'm typing this email,  as I prefer some software's early versions,  running under an older Slackware.  Works for me,  anyhow...

I sometimes want to log in as root.  (Please don't waste your time and mine by responding about how it's not a good idea to run as root...)  Very early versions of debian would list root,  as well as created users,  on the login screen.  This one doesn't,  I have to click on "not listed?" and then type in root and the root password.  That works on this install,  but I also have a laptop with version 10 on it (sorry,  but the codenames are just not something that I find easy to deal with) and in that case this procedure doesn't work.  At all.  The only thing that works there is to log in as a regular user,  and then use the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where in the software is this controlled?  I really would like to change this behavior,  if at all possible.

For whatever it's worth,  I have no problems with a text-based login screen and then typing startx once I've logged in,  which is pretty typical of my Slackware installations anyhow.  The copy of Slackware that's running my server machine doesn't even have a GUI installed on it.  But where would I make that change?

Any help,  advice,  etc. would be much appreciated.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#240356

Hi Roy,

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 05:07:46PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to upgrades.
> Mostly it's been a matter of running synaptic package manager from
> time to time,  and that's about it.  Except that lately it doesn't
> seem to be finding much of anything to do.  Reading some of the
> stuff in here,  I suspect that I'm horribly out of date.
> Executing "cat /etc/debian-version" returns 8.11!

So, you are still running Debian 8.x (jessie). This went end of life
for support by Debian's security team in June 2018:

    https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Production_Releases

You still have more limited support by the ELTS team up until some
time in 2022, but this is of limited scope which is why you haven't
seen many updates lately.

The release of the three newer stable versions of Debian seems to
have happened without you noticing. If you remain subscribed to this
mailing list then you will surely read here about the release of
Debian 12 (bookworm), but if you want a very low traffic
announcements feed then you could subscribe to the debian-announce
list instead:

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/

It's only received 6 emails so far this year:

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/2021/threads.html

> consulted the release notes about how one might go about
> upgrading,  and from the latest on back each one says something to
> the effect of only being able to upgrade from the last major
> version,  so if there's a good way to do this whole thing at once
> I'd sure like to hear about it.

Yes, upgrades are only supported from one release to another, so if
you wish to upgrade this machine you're going to have to consult the
release notes for Debian 9 about upgrading from 8.x to 9.x, and then
the release notes for Debian 10, and so on until you are at Debian
11.x.

It's not supported to go directly from 8 to 11 (or even from 8 to
10) and trying to do so will probably end in failure.

Or you could just reinstall and then put your data files back in
place from your backups. That may be quicker.

> The only thing that works there is to log in as a regular user,
> and then use the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where
> in the software is this controlled?  I really would like to change
> this behavior,  if at all possible.

I am not aware of any modern desktop environment that allows to log
in and run the entire GUI as root, for reasons you said you didn't
want to hear about. Someone else may be able to suggest some
alternate desktop environment that allows this.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#240386

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sb, 25 sep 21, 22:08:23, Andy Smith wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 05:07:46PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> 
> > The only thing that works there is to log in as a regular user,
> > and then use the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where
> > in the software is this controlled?  I really would like to change
> > this behavior,  if at all possible.
> 
> I am not aware of any modern desktop environment that allows to log
> in and run the entire GUI as root, for reasons you said you didn't
> want to hear about. Someone else may be able to suggest some
> alternate desktop environment that allows this.

Could it be this is an XY problem.

Care to elaborate on what exactly you need root for in a graphical 
environment? The usual admin tools (you did mention using Synaptic, 
GParted would be another useful graphical tool that needs root to do its 
job) should have ways to elevate privileges.

I do assume you don't seriously consider running Firefox or something 
like that as root ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#240416

On Saturday 25 September 2021 06:08:23 pm Andy Smith wrote:
> The release of the three newer stable versions of Debian seems to have happened without you noticing. 

Life has handed me a whole mess of things to deal with over the past year or two...

> If you remain subscribed to this mailing list then you will surely read here about the release of
> Debian 12 (bookworm), but if you want a very low traffic announcements feed then you could subscribe to the debian-announce
> list instead:
> 
>     https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/
> 
> It's only received 6 emails so far this year:
> 
>     https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/2021/threads.html

I *do* have that list flowing in here,  along with Debian News and Debian Security.  I guess I need to give it some more attention?
 
> > consulted the release notes about how one might go about upgrading,  and from the latest on back each one says something to
> > the effect of only being able to upgrade from the last major version,  so if there's a good way to do this whole thing at once
> > I'd sure like to hear about it.
> 
> Yes, upgrades are only supported from one release to another, so if you wish to upgrade this machine you're going to have to consult the
> release notes for Debian 9 about upgrading from 8.x to 9.x, and then the release notes for Debian 10, and so on until you are at Debian
> 11.x.

I have multiple tabs open in my browser to just those things.
 
> It's not supported to go directly from 8 to 11 (or even from 8 to 10) and trying to do so will probably end in failure.
> 
> Or you could just reinstall and then put your data files back in
> place from your backups. That may be quicker.

Maybe,  but I'm not sure that I want to go there at the moment.
 
> > The only thing that works there is to log in as a regular user, and then use the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where
> > in the software is this controlled?  I really would like to change this behavior,  if at all possible.
> 
> I am not aware of any modern desktop environment that allows to log in and run the entire GUI as root, for reasons you said you didn't
> want to hear about. Someone else may be able to suggest some alternate desktop environment that allows this.
 
Well,  I guess we'll see what turns up in the messages then.


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#240421

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 12:48:37PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

Hi Roy,

> On Saturday 25 September 2021 06:08:23 pm Andy Smith wrote:
> > The release of the three newer stable versions of Debian seems to have happened without you noticing. 
> 
> Life has handed me a whole mess of things to deal with over the past year or two...
> 
Sorry to hear that: I hope it gets better

> > If you remain subscribed to this mailing list then you will surely read here about the release of
> > Debian 12 (bookworm), but if you want a very low traffic announcements feed then you could subscribe to the debian-announce
> > list instead:
> > 
> >     https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/
> > 
> > It's only received 6 emails so far this year:
> > 
> >     https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/2021/threads.html
> 
> I *do* have that list flowing in here,  along with Debian News and Debian Security.  I guess I need to give it some more attention?
>  
> > > consulted the release notes about how one might go about upgrading,  and from the latest on back each one says something to
> > > the effect of only being able to upgrade from the last major version,  so if there's a good way to do this whole thing at once
> > > I'd sure like to hear about it.
> > 
> > Yes, upgrades are only supported from one release to another, so if you wish to upgrade this machine you're going to have to consult the
> > release notes for Debian 9 about upgrading from 8.x to 9.x, and then the release notes for Debian 10, and so on until you are at Debian
> > 11.x.
> 
> I have multiple tabs open in my browser to just those things.
>  
> > It's not supported to go directly from 8 to 11 (or even from 8 to 10) and trying to do so will probably end in failure.
> > 
> > Or you could just reinstall and then put your data files back in
> > place from your backups. That may be quicker.
> 
> Maybe,  but I'm not sure that I want to go there at the moment.

>From 8 to 9 should be do-able. So Jessie -> Stretch.
Stretch is still (just about) in support at the moment so follow through
the release notes carefully. I'd strongly suggest making notes of 
all the major services you run and any configs you know you've changed.

Work through that one, then do the same for 9 -> 10 - Stretch -> Buster.
At that point, there are several changes that have happened. There will be
another point release for Buster shortly, if all goes well.

LILO is no longer supported in Bullseye, if I remember rightly, so that might
be a problem for moving further until Buster is sorted (at which point you
should be able to move forward if you wish).

If we can help on this list, don't hesitate, just ask. Similar questions
have been asked over the last couple of months so you might also want to 
just take a quick look tthrough the archives from July onwards - Debian
11 was released on 14th July 2021.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

>  
> > > The only thing that works there is to log in as a regular user, and then use the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where
> > > in the software is this controlled?  I really would like to change this behavior,  if at all possible.
> > 
> > I am not aware of any modern desktop environment that allows to log in and run the entire GUI as root, for reasons you said you didn't
> > want to hear about. Someone else may be able to suggest some alternate desktop environment that allows this.
>  
> Well,  I guess we'll see what turns up in the messages then.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
> ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
> be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
> -
> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
> M Dakin
> 

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#240359

Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
...
> For whatever it's worth,  I have no problems with a text-based login screen and then typing startx once I've logged in,  which is pretty typical of my Slackware installations anyhow.  The copy of Slackware that's running my server machine doesn't even have a GUI installed on it.  But where would I make that change?

  don't waste any more time trying to upgrade from a version that
ancient.  back up your data that you really care about and then
do a fresh install from the most recent stable version.

  i always come up with a desktop that has all my projects 
set up and ready to go in various sets of terminals.  the
one terminal i fire up first is the one where i log in as
root, bring up the network and then do my morning updates
and upgrade(s) (as needed).  i do this daily because i run
testing most of the time so i do want to check out what is
being updated recently.  sounds like you would be better 
off with stable.  :)


  songbird

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#240363

Hi,

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 06:22:17PM -0400, songbird wrote:
> Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

[Upgrading from Debian 8.11]

>   don't waste any more time trying to upgrade from a version that
> ancient.

I've done 8 to 10 (by way of 9) on ten different machines in the
year preceding the 11 release and I didn't find it very difficult or
time-consuming, though admittedly these were servers and those tend
to be less complex than desktops.

I'm not sure that going from 10 to 11 would add that much extra
work; it really depends on what packages are installed and how
carefully their configuration changes must be examined.

But yeah I wouldn't recommend it without that qualification, and it
may well be the case that a clean install is simpler and faster at
that point. A lot of people prefer that even for version x to
version x+1 changes.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#240378

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021, Andy Smith wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 06:22:17PM -0400, songbird wrote:
>> Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
>
> [Upgrading from Debian 8.11]
>
>>   don't waste any more time trying to upgrade from a version that
>> ancient.
>
> I've done 8 to 10 (by way of 9) on ten different machines in the
> year preceding the 11 release and I didn't find it very difficult or
> time-consuming, though admittedly these were servers and those tend
> to be less complex than desktops.
>
Ditto, although not quite that many. The only real issue I've had is the
VM for connecting to IPMI. I had to jump throught hoops to get it
working with buster and every firefox update makes me wince! I'm
probably going to roll back eventually and keep it at a known working,
no patching, version.

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#240360

Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: 
> Lots of differences!  systemd instead of init,  grub instead of LILO,  and probably many more than I'd want to list here.

As it turns out, these are just the defaults.

> I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to upgrades.  Mostly
> it's been a matter of running synaptic package manager from time
> to time, and that's about it.  Except that lately it doesn't seem
> to be finding much of anything to do.  Reading some of the stuff
> in here, I suspect that I'm horribly out of date.  Executing "cat
> /etc/debian-version" returns 8.11!  And there's now apparently a
> version 11 out now?!  I have followed the advice of some of the posts
> in this list and consulted the release notes about how one might go
> about upgrading, and from the latest on back each one says something
> to the effect of only being able to upgrade from the last major
> version, so if there's a good way to do this whole thing at once I'd
> sure like to hear about it.

No -- you must go 8 to 9, reboot; 9 to 10; reboot; 10 to 11;
reboot. Normally that would have taken five or six years,
though.


> I sometimes want to log in as root.  (Please don't waste your time and
> mine by responding about how it's not a good idea to run as root...)
> Very early versions of debian would list root, as well as created
> users, on the login screen.  This one doesn't, I have to click on "not
> listed?" and then type in root and the root password.  That works on
> this install, but I also have a laptop with version 10 on it (sorry,
> but the codenames are just not something that I find easy to deal
> with) and in that case this procedure doesn't work.  At all.  The only
> thing that works there is to log in as a regular user, and then use
> the su command to get there.  A bit of a pain.  Where in the software
> is this controlled?  I really would like to change this behavior, if
> at all possible.

If the system will not let you login as root at a non-graphical
console, it means that root does not have a password set. Login
as a normal user, use su or sudo to change root's password, and
then you should be able to login as root.

If the system will not let you login as root from the graphical
display manager, it's the GDM's fault. It may be a configurable
option in its /etc/whateverdm. If not, you can always replace a
recalcitrant GDM with original xdm, which doesn't care so much.

-dsr-

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#240418

On Saturday 25 September 2021 06:36:34 pm Dan Ritter wrote:
> If the system will not let you login as root from the graphical
> display manager, it's the GDM's fault. It may be a configurable
> option in its /etc/whateverdm. If not, you can always replace a
> recalcitrant GDM with original xdm, which doesn't care so much.
 
That appears to be the problem.  GDM?  What do I need to be looking at here?


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#240422

On Sun 26 Sep 2021 at 13:03:26 -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

> On Saturday 25 September 2021 06:36:34 pm Dan Ritter wrote:
> > If the system will not let you login as root from the graphical
> > display manager, it's the GDM's fault. It may be a configurable
> > option in its /etc/whateverdm. If not, you can always replace a
> > recalcitrant GDM with original xdm, which doesn't care so much.
>  
> That appears to be the problem.  GDM? 

Was this conclusion the result of extensive testing? Or did you base
the opinion on what you got fron installing the gutfeeling package? :)

>                                        What do I need to be looking at here?

xserver-xorg-legacy?

-- 
Brian.

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#240423

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 01:03:26PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Saturday 25 September 2021 06:36:34 pm Dan Ritter wrote:
> > If the system will not let you login as root from the graphical
> > display manager, it's the GDM's fault. It may be a configurable
> > option in its /etc/whateverdm. If not, you can always replace a
> > recalcitrant GDM with original xdm, which doesn't care so much.
>  
> That appears to be the problem.  GDM?  What do I need to be looking at here?
> 
It's not a problem as such: it's the safe default.It's in the /etc/gdm3
settings.

Follow the clues form the blog below:

https://economictheoryblog.com/2015/11/08/how-to-enable-gui-root-login-in-debian-8/

Edit /etc/gdm3/daemon.conf and add 

AllowRoot=true under [security]

Then edit /etc/pam.d/gdm-password and comment out (with a #) the line

auth required pam_succeed_if.so.user != root quiet_success

This may help but is desperately insecure. You're an experienced user so
this is an informed choice that you choose to make for your system.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater
> 
> -- 
> Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
> ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
> be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
> -
> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
> M Dakin
> 

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#240448

On Sunday 26 September 2021 01:59:05 pm Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> Follow the clues form the blog below:
> 
> https://economictheoryblog.com/2015/11/08/how-to-enable-gui-root-login-in-debian-8/
> 
> Edit /etc/gdm3/daemon.conf and add 
> 
> AllowRoot=true under [security]
> 
> Then edit /etc/pam.d/gdm-password and comment out (with a #) the line
> 
> auth required pam_succeed_if.so.user != root quiet_success
 
That stuff is already done on this system.  I looked over that post and several related ones,  and it's apparent to me that the steps required are different from one version to another.  Given that,  I'm beginning to think that a textmode login might be my best choice,  followed by startx,  to simplify things.


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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