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moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere

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  moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2021-08-14 22:10 +0200
    Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-15 23:30 +0200
      Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere lou <loushanguan2015@sina.com> - 2021-08-16 03:40 +0200
        Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-16 03:50 +0200
        Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-16 03:50 +0200
          Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2021-08-16 04:00 +0200
            Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-16 04:20 +0200
              Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2021-08-16 04:30 +0200
                Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-16 04:40 +0200
                Re: [Going OFFTOPIC ] Harmonic Analysis ( was: moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-16 04:40 +0200
            Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2021-08-16 18:10 +0200
          Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-16 08:40 +0200
          Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-08-19 17:20 +0200
            Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 17:40 +0200
              Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 18:10 +0200
                Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-08-19 18:30 +0200
                Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 19:40 +0200
                  Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ] "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-08-19 20:20 +0200
                    Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-19 20:40 +0200
                    Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 20:50 +0200
                      Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-19 23:40 +0200
                        Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-20 23:30 +0200
                          Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-21 06:00 +0200
                  Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would  appreciate if you could interfere ] Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 22:20 +0200
            Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-19 22:00 +0200
              Re: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-20 08:40 +0200

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#238658 — moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere

Dear moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere.
This list recently is flooded with never ending arguing, and respect and 
politeness too often got lost.

Same here as already for Michael Howards "Fwd: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: 
Meta: behavior on list)". See attachment below.
Marco


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 15:41:42 -0400
From: Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com>
To: Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net>



On 2021-08-14 3:38 p.m., Marco Möller wrote:
> On 14.08.21 21:35, Michael Howard wrote:
> 
>> Give the normal amongst us a break. This stuff is NOT debian, it is
>> social ineptitude and it has to stop.
>>
>> Form yourselves a chat group somewhere, just NOT here. Please?
>>
>> -- 
>> Michael Howard.
>>
> 
> +1
> 
> ---
> Marco
> 
FUCK OFF

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238783

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:01:37PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> Dear moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere.
> This list recently is flooded with never ending arguing, and respect and
> politeness too often got lost.
> 
> Same here as already for Michael Howards "Fwd: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta:
> behavior on list)". See attachment below.
> Marco
> 
> 
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: Re: [OFFTOPIC] Plonk (wss: Meta: behavior on list)
> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 15:41:42 -0400
> From: Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com>
> To: Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net>
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-08-14 3:38 p.m., Marco Möller wrote:
> > On 14.08.21 21:35, Michael Howard wrote:
> > 
> > > Give the normal amongst us a break. This stuff is NOT debian, it is
> > > social ineptitude and it has to stop.
> > > 
> > > Form yourselves a chat group somewhere, just NOT here. Please?
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Michael Howard.
> > > 
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > ---
> > Marco
> > 
> FUCK OFF
> 
> -- 
> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
> 
> 

There aren't any particular moderators here: as stated before this is an
unmoderated list.

If someone writes to you off-list specifically, it's very bad form to bring
copy it and specifically bring it back up on list, whoever seems to be at 
fault. 

Everybody can make mistakes, very occasionally people copy a private reply
back to a list in genuine error. You goof: but you generally only do it once
because people will call you out on it - especially if it's a sensitive 
topic. [And yes, from personal experience, it doesn't feel nice once you 
realise you've made a mistake - apologies don't always cut it.]

Moral of the story: look really carefully at how you're replying
and who you're replying to. If you're really not sure: stop, take a breath,
a sip of coffee - then reread and check twice more before sending. 
[HINT: I nearly goofed just now before sending this: check that you're not
sending a reply to something on list to someone as a private email and
vice versa.]

It's another useful reason to not always write to the list and cc. to the 
person you're replying to - it's too easy to make a mistake. 

*Don't* copy back to the list because you're aggrieved:, ask the 
community team - off list - if they'd care to take a look. 
The address is community@debian.org.

The main Debian Code of Conduct and the mailing list general code of conduct
are at 

https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct 

and 

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

respectively. 

Enrico Zini's community guidelines are old but good. They're
at https://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/

People: The threads over the last few days have not been constructive or
particularly edifying - I'm specifically _not_ going to call out anyone
on list here - see above for why -  but there could have been more mutual
respect shown.

As a member of the Community Team, I've asked my colleagues to have a look:
several people have overstepped the mark here in varying degrees, I think. 
Maybe it will be instructive to come back to the posts of the last few days 
in a week or a month, reread,  and see how the threads make us (all) look?

I was busy yesterday with testing installation media: hey, we got a release
out after just over two years worth of work. Debian turns 28 years old 
tomorrow: there's Debconf 21 on line in just about ten days time: 24th August
onwards

That's good news and positive - can we go with a bit more of that spirit,
please?

All the best to a (sometimes not quite) community here on list, as ever,

Andy Cater

[For and on behalf of the Community Team - copied to community@debian.org
for the team's information].

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#238791

Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline

and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate

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#238792

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2021-08-15 9:29 p.m., lou wrote:
> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
> 
> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
> 

Andrew is a active community member who gives lots of time for all of
us. I think he's (pick a word) in the Debian ecosystem but the exact
term is missing in my mind.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238793

On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
> 
> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate

By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
be.
It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
Cheers!

Harry. 
-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

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#238794

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 16/8/21 9:45 am, Weaver wrote:
>
> By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
> be.
> It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
> small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
> auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
> do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
> source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
> Cheers!
>
> Harry.

Wait till you try and do any editing on Wikipedia, especially on 
controversial topics.

Then you'll find all about self appointed politically correct assholes 
who by virtue of being there first have established an ecosystem where 
anyone not toeing the line is neutered.

I don't think this is accidental, and you can see clear signs of 
continuous influence by major players using Wikipedia 'editors' to 
further various agendas.

-- 
Jeremy

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#238795

On 16-08-2021 11:56, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> On 16/8/21 9:45 am, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
>> be.
>> It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
>> small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
>> auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
>> do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
>> source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Harry.
> 
> Wait till you try and do any editing on Wikipedia, especially on
> controversial topics.
> 
> Then you'll find all about self appointed politically correct assholes
> who by virtue of being there first have established an ecosystem where
> anyone not toeing the line is neutered.
> 
> I don't think this is accidental, and you can see clear signs of
> continuous influence by major players using Wikipedia 'editors' to
> further various agendas.

Yes, I do a lot of research, so need to cite frequently.
I might reference Wikipedia, but never in isolation, and generally
extract a quote, because that could change tomorrow.
Any idiot can edit a page there.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

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#238796

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On 16/8/21 10:17 am, Weaver wrote:
>
> Any idiot can edit a page there.
> Cheers!
>
> Harry.
>
And they frequently do!

Yesterday I looked up 'harmonic analysis' of which I am a subject 
expert. The article was virtually incomprehensible to me. But worse, it 
almost completely missed what it is about - it's major use in picking 
signals up from well below the noise floor in applications such as deep 
space communications and tidal signal analysis. It's even used in the 
targeting systems of heat seeking missiles. None of that crappy fourier 
analysis here thanks!

-- 
Jeremy

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#238797

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Hi,

On 2021-08-15 10:26 p.m., Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 16/8/21 10:17 am, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Any idiot can edit a page there.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Harry.
>>
> And they frequently do!
> 
> Yesterday I looked up 'harmonic analysis' of which I am a subject
> expert. The article was virtually incomprehensible to me. But worse, it
> almost completely missed what it is about - it's major use in picking
> signals up from well below the noise floor in applications such as deep
> space communications and tidal signal analysis. It's even used in the
> targeting systems of heat seeking missiles. None of that crappy fourier
> analysis here thanks!
> 

A fourrier series being a periodic function (much like a waveform).
I'd like to explain better my thought but I'm not good enough in English
when it relates to mathematics.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238798 — Re: [Going OFFTOPIC ] Harmonic Analysis ( was: moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere)

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On 2021-08-15 10:26 p.m., Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 16/8/21 10:17 am, Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Any idiot can edit a page there.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Harry.
>>
> And they frequently do!
> 
> Yesterday I looked up 'harmonic analysis' of which I am a subject
> expert. The article was virtually incomprehensible to me. But worse, it
> almost completely missed what it is about - it's major use in picking
> signals up from well below the noise floor in applications such as deep
> space communications and tidal signal analysis. It's even used in the
> targeting systems of heat seeking missiles. None of that crappy fourier
> analysis here thanks!
> 
Maybe there's a misunderstanding between what harmonic analysis are used
for and what they are based on ?

Harmonic analysis are a form of waveform function for signal analysis.
Mostly used for extracting signal for mountain of noise (one
application) but there's many and the math basis behind this is far from
the common usage.

We often forget that Wikipedia is a "general encyclopedia" not a
specific encyclopedia. For example can't compare the page in Wikipedia
for Harmonic Analysis and the page in a Wikibooks with a chapter on
harmonic analysis and it's introduction page.

I really don't understand why you feel that the reference to Fourrier
transformation ain't appropriate.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238829

Jeremy Ardley wrote:

> I don't think this is accidental, and you can see clear signs of
> continuous influence by major players using Wikipedia 'editors' to
> further various agendas.

+1

China and North Korea getting envy.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

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#238802

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 06:45:56PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
> > Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
> > 
> > and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate

[...]

> small collective of the politically correct [...]

Pushing buttons?

This one gets old. Yawn.

Cheers
 - t

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#239046

weaver@riseup.net wrote:
>On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
>> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
>> 
>> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
>
>By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
>be.
>It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
>small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
>auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
>do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
>source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.

For the avoidance of doubt...

The debian-user list may be listed as "not moderated", but that just
means that posting is open by default. This mailing list, like all
Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

As Andrew points out in his excellent and helpful regular posting:

  Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"We're the technical experts.  We were hired so that management could
 ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs."  -- Mike Andrews

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#239047

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On 2021-08-19 11:12 a.m., Steve McIntyre wrote:
> weaver@riseup.net wrote:
>> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
>>> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
>>>
>>> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
>>
>> By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
>> be.
>> It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
>> small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
>> auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
>> do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
>> source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
> 
> For the avoidance of doubt...
> 
> The debian-user list may be listed as "not moderated", but that just
> means that posting is open by default. This mailing list, like all
> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
> 
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> 
> As Andrew points out in his excellent and helpful regular posting:
> 
>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>   behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> 
> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
I don't know what you are trying to pass as message here. But I never
said that open source is a pass to being abusive toward others.
I've always pushed toward kindness and understanding as much possible.
What I said was that as this list is "unmoderated" this means that it is
open for posting to everyone. So yes this cause a possibility of higher
than other list for message going off-topic.
What I advocate and will continue to do so is going against the type of
self appointed policing who take a pleasure of pointing others crossing
of their interpretation of what they consider being the rules.
There's a excellent judgement from the European High Court called the
"TaxQuest ruling" that state the most important part of the decision is
the motivation behind it.
So when you simply tell a new comer "You do this wrong" and don't
explain why then this is just not helpful and far from being what a
welcoming community would do.
If there's a rule of law that state "No one shall ignore the law" and
still people seems to ignore some interpretation of the rules edict for
our society, this also applies to this mailing list where not all the
users read the FAQ, code of conduct and all that is related. And even if
they did read all of this before subscribing, they'll forgot part of it
and feel bloated.
So if you are expecting to pass a message of the type that I'm trying to
justify messages that you consider off-topic and making them politically
correct. No this is not the case, even if I can do nothing for your own
belief.
Because in all conversation, there will always be moment where the
simple social act of exchanging information will make us leave the main
context and go aside. This is also what make us human being, with
emotions and a need to socialize. Probably the ones who have a social
life other than behind a keyboard will understand, for others then just
hold to the belief.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#239049

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Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> writes:

> On 2021-08-19 11:12 a.m., Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> weaver@riseup.net wrote:
>>> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:
>>>> Andrew, i thought you r moderator because you post monthly list guideline
>>>>
>>>> and you speak kindly with some authority when some list user deviate
>>>
>>> By reputation, the list is unmoderated, and that's the way it used to
>>> be.
>>> It still bears the token title of an unmoderated list but, in reality, a
>>> small collective of the politically correct have placed it under their
>>> auspices to moderate it. They have all the rationale, they believe, to
>>> do so, but this is quite in contradiction with the principles of open
>>> source, so it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
>> 
>> For the avoidance of doubt...
>> 
>> The debian-user list may be listed as "not moderated", but that just
>> means that posting is open by default. This mailing list, like all
>> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
>> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
>> 
>> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
>> 
>> As Andrew points out in his excellent and helpful regular posting:
>> 
>>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>   behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>> 
>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
> I don't know what you are trying to pass as message here. But I never
> said that open source is a pass to being abusive toward others.
> I've always pushed toward kindness and understanding as much possible.
> What I said was that as this list is "unmoderated" this means that it is
> open for posting to everyone. So yes this cause a possibility of higher
> than other list for message going off-topic.
> What I advocate and will continue to do so is going against the type of
> self appointed policing who take a pleasure of pointing others crossing
> of their interpretation of what they consider being the rules.
> There's a excellent judgement from the European High Court called the
> "TaxQuest ruling" that state the most important part of the decision is
> the motivation behind it.
> So when you simply tell a new comer "You do this wrong" and don't
> explain why then this is just not helpful and far from being what a
> welcoming community would do.
> If there's a rule of law that state "No one shall ignore the law" and
> still people seems to ignore some interpretation of the rules edict for
> our society, this also applies to this mailing list where not all the
> users read the FAQ, code of conduct and all that is related. And even if
> they did read all of this before subscribing, they'll forgot part of it
> and feel bloated.
> So if you are expecting to pass a message of the type that I'm trying to
> justify messages that you consider off-topic and making them politically
> correct. No this is not the case, even if I can do nothing for your own
> belief.
> Because in all conversation, there will always be moment where the
> simple social act of exchanging information will make us leave the main
> context and go aside. This is also what make us human being, with
> emotions and a need to socialize. Probably the ones who have a social
> life other than behind a keyboard will understand, for others then just
> hold to the belief.

As Steve did not send this mail to you, I would not take it personally.

And even though it were, Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.

Regards,
--
PEB

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#239052

Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>
>As Steve did not send this mail to you, I would not take it personally.

Exactly, thanks.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"We're the technical experts.  We were hired so that management could
 ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs."  -- Mike Andrews

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#239054 — Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

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On 2021-08-19 11:58 a.m., Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> writes:
> 
>> On 2021-08-19 11:12 a.m., Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>> weaver@riseup.net wrote:
>>>> On 16-08-2021 11:29, lou wrote:

>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
Strange to say it's not meant to be something that I'm related to, as he
comment on a opinion I had and goes on to say that I'm trying to pass
something as politically correct.

Anyway kind of useless to have any type of explanation here. You'll all
be more into telling your friends they are right and keeping this as if
it's your own club house. And pushing away everything that is not in
your line of view.

I've known for long time that computer flavored mailing list we're
mostly male oriented and that the respect for others was only existing
in the view of "don't bother me".
> 
> As Steve did not send this mail to you, I would not take it personally.
> 
> And even though it were, Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
> 
Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
If mine wasn't clear enough, now it is.

Leave alone the newbies if you can't be kind and full of comprehension
for them.

In case it was missed...

The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
If we can't be kind then we must abstain.

> Regards,
> --
> PEB
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#239055 — Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

Hi,

Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > > This mailing list, like all
> > > Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
> > > list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
> > > [...]
> > >   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> > >  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> > >
> > > If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
> > > you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
> > > source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.

Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
> > the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.

Well then:

Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.

  https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
  https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre


Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#239056 — Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 08:18:50PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > > > This mailing list, like all
> > > > Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
> > > > list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
> > > > [...]
> > > >   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> > > >  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> > > >
> > > > If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
> > > > you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
> > > > source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
> 
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > > [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
> > > the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
> 
> Well then:
> 
> Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
> Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
> Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
> influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.
> 
>   https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
>   https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre
> 
> 
> Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
> of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
> So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
> somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

People,

There's a lot of sniping back and forward, flaming and general bad behaviour.
Various people have asked nicely, put forward polite comments and suggested
constructive ways forward. I've written to the list: Steve has also been
constrained to weigh in.

However exasperated any individual may be, however tempting it is to pile
in with a sarcastic comment: stop now, enough.

The state of this particular list in the last fortnight or so has not
been an example for anyone. The mega threads have effectively become unreadable.
As previously, I'm not going to single out individuals on list - many of
you know and recognise significantly better standards of mailing list
behaviour than you may yourselves have shown in the past couple of weeks. 
Follow them.

As ever, this list remains subject to the Debian Code of Conduct and the
Debian mailing list code of conduct. 

Can we get back to providing support for users, new and old, and something
good and worthwhile in the way we communicate with each other?

Respect goes upwards downwards and sideways from an individual: it may
have to be earned over time: it can surely be lost in an instant.

Regards

Andy Cater

[For the Community Team]

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#239057 — Re: Respect for newbies and new comers [ was : moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfere ]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2021-08-19 2:18 p.m., Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>>> This mailing list, like all
>>>> Debian-hosted mailing lists, is subject to both the Debian mailing
>>>> list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct:
>>>> [...]
>>>>   Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>>>  behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>>>>
>>>> If you're trying to label that as "politically correct" then I think
>>>> you may need to change your expectations. The "principles of open
>>>> source" do not include a free pass to be abusive to others.
> 
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>> [...] Steve's message is pretty explicit, so I guess
>>> the message he is trying to pass here is quite clear.
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Great for him, cheer if you feel like it.
> 
> Well then:
> 
> Three cheers for Steve McIntyre, former Debian Project Leader, carer of
> Debian boot capabilities including the inavoidable cooperation with
> Microsoft to get Debian working on Secure Boot EFI, and one of the most
> influencial users of my own contribution to the free software world.
> 
>   https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=93sam%40debian.org
>   https://wiki.debian.org/SteveMcIntyre
> 
> 
> Also he is one of the people who were addressed by the previous title
> of this thread: "moderators, I would appreciate if you could interfer".
> So giving him back-talk in respect to list rules and conventions seems
> somewhat like asking for a demonstration of his authority.
> 
I misunderstood the message from Steve and have sent him a apologies (in
private).

It wasn't my goal to provoke anyone here.

And I'd like to add, now that I know that he's been the one that got the
hard job of working with Microsoft. Thank you Steve for you hard work
and be assured that I'm sure you had hard time convincing Microsoft that
it would be good that they help us so we can get secure boot. I remember
using secure boot in 2009 so it's been a long time since all this
started and at that time they were not much into open source.

Thank you Steve and sorry for taking your limited time.
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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