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Buster no release file

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  Buster no release file kris <kris@dreamwaresystems.com> - 2021-07-11 00:30 +0200
    Re: Buster no release file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-07-11 00:50 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-11 02:20 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-07-11 03:30 +0200
        Re: Buster no release file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-07-11 03:50 +0200
          Re: Buster no release file Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-07-11 09:40 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2021-07-11 11:20 +0200
        Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 13:10 +0200
          Re: Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 14:40 +0200
            Re: Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-07-11 18:40 +0200
              Re: Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 20:30 +0200
                Re: Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-11 20:50 +0200
                  Re: Cool down... [was: Buster no release file] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 21:20 +0200
                  Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-11 22:10 +0200
                    Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-07-11 22:20 +0200
                    Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2021-07-11 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 22:40 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] jeremy ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2021-07-11 23:10 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-12 09:50 +0200
                      Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-13 05:20 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-07-14 00:50 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-14 09:00 +0200
                    Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-11 23:00 +0200
                      Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-12 09:50 +0200
                        Re: Useless [Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-12 10:20 +0200
                          Re: Useless [Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]] tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-07-12 10:30 +0200
                          Re: Useless [Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-07-12 13:00 +0200
                            Re: Useless [Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-12 13:00 +0200
                        Writing angry comments inside code and forgetting that opensource  means world will read you [ was : Offensive variable names [was: Cool down  ...]] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-12 10:20 +0200
                          Re: Writing angry comments inside code and forgetting that opensource means world will read you "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-12 11:40 +0200
                            Re: Writing angry comments inside code and forgetting that  opensource means world will read you Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2021-07-12 12:00 +0200
                            Re: Writing angry comments inside code and forgetting that  opensource means world will read you Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-07-12 13:20 +0200
                      Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> - 2021-07-12 17:20 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-13 05:30 +0200
                    Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-07-12 15:40 +0200
                      Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] "Kevin N." <kevin@notscheduled.eu> - 2021-07-12 16:50 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-07-12 17:50 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-12 19:30 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-07-12 18:50 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-07-12 19:00 +0200
                            Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-07-12 23:30 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] "Kevin N." <kevin@notscheduled.eu> - 2021-07-12 19:10 +0200
                        Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-12 19:30 +0200
                          Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-07-12 20:10 +0200
        Re: Buster no release file "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-07-11 13:40 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-07-11 20:10 +0200
        Re: Buster no release file Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-11 20:20 +0200
          Re: Buster no release file Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-07-11 21:00 +0200
            Re: Buster no release file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-11 21:10 +0200
              Re: Buster no release file Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-12 18:00 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-11 20:10 +0200
      Re: Buster no release file Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-12 10:20 +0200
        Re: Buster no release file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-07-12 12:00 +0200
          Re: Buster no release file Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-12 13:10 +0200
      Wiki Debian "Release page" should have template (Was Re: Buster no  release file) Robbi Nespu <robbinespu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 17:40 +0200
        Re: Wiki Debian "Release page" should have template (Was Re: Buster  no release file) Robbi Nespu <robbinespu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 18:10 +0200

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#237278 — Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]

On Monday 12 July 2021 12:55:27 James H. H. Lampert wrote:

> I know people who associate the time-honored metasyntactic "foobar"
> with the military slang acronym FUBAR.
>
> --
> JHHL

I've used them interchangeably for 80+ years, and I'll do it till I miss 
roll call. That particular slang was probably in use before Alexander 
opened his library, probably said first in latin, by one of his shield 
makers about a shield brought in for repairs in Constantinople

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#237265 — Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]

>>> Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
>>> might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
>>> youth.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a
>> serious one.
>> But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its
>> gravity with such exaggerated actions.
>>


> I guess my sense of humor may be a little too dry.

Well, online communication can be easily misunderstood.

That's why I added the "I still hope that you were joking though :)" part ;)


Cheers,

K.

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#237267 — Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 05:39:43PM +0300, Kevin N. wrote:
>>Right, and I myself have lodged a ticket to ban bar after foo because it
>>might lead to blithe attitudes concerning alcohol in our vulnerable
>>youth.
>
>Don't get me wrong: like many other things, offensive languages is a serious
>one.
>But, instead of helping, I think that you are in fact minimizing its gravity
>with such exaggerated actions.

It's only offensive to the people who are offended.  Theoretically all
words are offensive since any word can be offensive to anyone just because 
they deem it so.  Censoring (i.e. changing the language) of everything to
appease everyone 1) isn't possible, 2) is foolish at best, 3) is a 
waste of everyone's time, and 4) creates a power hungry mob of zealots
looking to dismantle any word they deem offensive (e.g. paper machete).

It's amazing how many people have bought into the corporatization of the$
Internet.$
--~$
Best regards,$

Brian T$

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#237268 — Re: Offensive variable names [was: Cool down ...]

> It's only offensive to the people who are offended.  Theoretically all
> words are offensive since any word can be offensive to anyone just because 
> they deem it so.  Censoring (i.e. changing the language) of everything to
> appease everyone 1) isn't possible, 2) is foolish at best, 3) is a 
> waste of everyone's time, and 4) creates a power hungry mob of zealots
> looking to dismantle any word they deem offensive (e.g. paper machete).

It's neither black nor white.  Reduction to the absurd doesn't help make
good decisions.  After all, a breath of fresh air is just a bunch of
protons/neutrons/electrons moving, so it's no different from a bullet.
Or is it?


        Stefan

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#237199

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:18:37AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2021-07-10 23:44, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
> control freaks are the biggest problem facing society today.
> mick
> -- 
> Key ID    4BFEBB31
> 

Folks,

Rather than call people assholes and control freaks: please look at the local
context. Bullseye - Debian 11 - is potentially to be released in three weeks.

There's an amount of wiki gardening going on to tidy up, get translations
sorted, update pages.  When Bullseye comes along, Buster drops to oldstable 
and another year or so of support, Stretch drops to oldoldstable and support 
by the LTS team and so it goes. The wiki is always in flux, some of it out 
of date, much of it needing revision: if you wanted, you could get an account 
yourselves. 

Elsewhere in the Debin wiki - under SourcesList - which is a logical place,
maybe, https://wiki.debian.org/SourcesList i a complete sources list for 
buster which also explains clearly how to add contrib and non-free if you
need them. I'm guessing that will be replaced in due course for one for
Bullseye. NOTE WELL: There is a change in format for the security sources
in Bullseye which is well covered in the draft release notes and elsewhere.

Respect goes all around - easily upwards to some people who have been around 
longer/may know more/ are helpful/give good advice, are friendly, downwards 
to people who may know less than you/whom you can help and sideways to your 
peers. At any given time, each of you occupies one or more of those positions 
for the others around you on this list and inside/outside Debian.

Try to be maybe a bit more thoughtful as to the effect such posts have?

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

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#237206

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:01:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>  * I do not understand what the issue is.

The issue is that there is a self-appointed "wiki-owners' association"
that will undo any efforts one may make to try to improve the wiki.
Certain pages are "sacred" and must be kept in a specific form, because
that's the status quo, and the status quo is more important than
usefulness.

It's never worth getting into an edit war against these cabals, because
you (the outsider) will always lose.  The status quo will prevail.  All
hail the status quo.

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#237208

On Sun 11 Jul 2021 at 14:08:24 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:01:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> >  * I do not understand what the issue is.
> 
> The issue is that there is a self-appointed "wiki-owners' association"
> that will undo any efforts one may make to try to improve the wiki.
> Certain pages are "sacred" and must be kept in a specific form, because
> that's the status quo, and the status quo is more important than
> usefulness.
> 
> It's never worth getting into an edit war against these cabals, because
> you (the outsider) will always lose.  The status quo will prevail.  All
> hail the status quo.

There isn't any cabal; just interested, concerned and active users
of the wiki.

Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
persuasive argument?

-- 
Brian.

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#237214

> Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
> persuasive argument?

In my experience, "communicate with the editor" is the second step, the
first step being "try to figure out how to communicate with the editor".


        Stefan

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#237215

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On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 02:57:24PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
> > persuasive argument?
> 
> In my experience, "communicate with the editor" is the second step, the
> first step being "try to figure out how to communicate with the editor".

I think this was settled: he's a well-known Debian maintainer, after all.

Cheers
 - t

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#237262

On Sun 11 Jul 2021 at 21:03:27 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 02:57:24PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > > Revert the change or communicate with the edior. Maybe he has a
> > > persuasive argument?

I wrote the previous two sentences. What is gained by not crediting,
acknowledging or referencing a user's post? I wish it wasn't harder
for people to know who is involved in a thread and what they wrote.
 
> > In my experience, "communicate with the editor" is the second step, the
> > first step being "try to figure out how to communicate with the editor".
> 
> I think this was settled: he's a well-known Debian maintainer, after all.

True in this case but, unfortunately, quite a number of editors don't
register a contact point.

-- 
Brian.

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#237207

On Sat 10 Jul 2021 at 18:44:47 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
> 
> You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
> 
> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.

I considered re-editing the wiki to meet your concerns but

 * I could end up being put in the same category as another editor.
 * The edit was made almost two years ago and was unnoticed.
 * I do not understand what the issue is.
 * It's a wiki. Sympathisers with your cause may have their own plans.
 * I have trouble with posts containing threatening language.
 * Ruffled feathers can be preened.
 * Why me?

-- 
Brian.

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#237232

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On Sb, 10 iul 21, 18:44:47, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22

According to the diff the information was replaced with a pointer to the 
release information for buster on the website.

Seems to me like an attempt to avoid duplication (which can easily 
result in information get out of sync)[1].

My (probably biased) view is that also the NewIn<Release> pages are 
duplicating a lot of information that either belongs in the Release 
Notes (please file bugs against the package 'release-notes') or is 
already included there.

Is such duplication really helpful?

If the Release Notes are unsuitable for whatever purpose, what can be 
done to make them better?


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#237238

On 2021-07-12, Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is such duplication really helpful?

The answer is manifestly yes, unless you're unable to conceive of
someone coming across the information in the wiki rather than in the
voluminous release notes. 

> If the Release Notes are unsuitable for whatever purpose, what can be
> done to make them better?

This is a complete straw man. If you want people to be aware of some
essential bit of information, a redundancy of sources is beneficial.
That's why information campaigns *disseminate* information in a number
of media, and in a number of ways. There is no rationality behind
imposing a mutual exclusivity in this case; to the contrary, experience
would argue against it.

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#237246

On Mon 12 Jul 2021 at 09:46:37 -0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2021-07-12, Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Is such duplication really helpful?
> 
> The answer is manifestly yes, unless you're unable to conceive of
> someone coming across the information in the wiki rather than in the
> voluminous release notes. 
> 
> > If the Release Notes are unsuitable for whatever purpose, what can be
> > done to make them better?
> 
> This is a complete straw man. If you want people to be aware of some
> essential bit of information, a redundancy of sources is beneficial.
> That's why information campaigns *disseminate* information in a number
> of media, and in a number of ways. There is no rationality behind
> imposing a mutual exclusivity in this case; to the contrary, experience
> would argue against it.

I think this is a very reasonable point of view. A prominent link to
the Release Notes is necessary on the wiki page but, as a service to
users, pointing out what may be considered of interest (with linis)
is not likely to be harmful. Repetition can serve a useful purpose,
especially if it is accompanied by some explanatory text.

-- 
Brian.

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#237549 — Wiki Debian "Release page" should have template (Was Re: Buster no release file)

On 7/11/21 6:44 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I was going to link you to the DebianBuster wiki page where I had put
> the standard sources.list for buster, but it appears someone doesn't
> want you to have that information.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev2=23&rev1=22
> 
> You can thank the person who goes by the name PaulWise for making your
> Debian wiki a less informative and less useful place.
> 
> I *REALLY* and truly hate assholes like that.
> 

I don't agree calling someone asshole but I  agree with Greg in-term of 
sometimes someone make Debian Wiki less informative and less useful.

This is great example, this is what I see what happening on the time line..

Timeline 1: Greg put useful information 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev1=21&rev2=22

Timeline 2: PaulWise revert the changes as he comment is as unnecessary 
changes https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster?action=diff&rev1=21&rev2=23

On timeline 1 and 2, The class issue are Greg added useful information 
and PaulWise remove it / revert it  (to me it likely want to tidy up and 
make it uniform like others "Debian Release" pages)

Both have own perspective and good attention.

Wiki are great in term of collective information but quite really-ugly 
on deciding which "information" should be put here and which should 
not.. worst, there is no template to follow as far I check. Plus, I 
can't found how to create template on Debian Wiki.

So.. Greg and Paul have clash on something important here. (Too be 
honest, I wish Debian move to Wiki with pull-request approval type 
rather just who-ever have Wiki approved account can do change)

The best solution and improvement are to send report to bug list as 
wishlist's to have a standard template for this "Debian Release" pages 
and this template should have standard sources.list or a link to 
https://wiki.debian.org/SourcesList (this wiki page also need 
improvement, IMHO)

I send out this email first. So I can have a link to attach on my report 
bug later. Will replying this thread later with report bugs number, I 
hope this will be useful to prevent issue like this.

Thanks to Greg and Paul for great contribution on Debian Wiki.

p/s: Wiki Debian "Release page" == 
https://wiki.debian.org/Debian<ADD_RELEASE_NAME_HERE>

-- 
Robbi Nespu <robbinespu AT SPAMFREE gmail DOT com>
D311 B5FF EEE6 0BE8 9C91 FA9E 0C81 FA30 3B3A 80BA
https://robbinespu.gitlab.io | https://mstdn.social/@robbinespu

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#237550 — Re: Wiki Debian "Release page" should have template (Was Re: Buster no release file)

On 7/20/21 11:34 PM, Robbi Nespu wrote:

> I send out this email first. So I can have a link to attach on my report 
> bug later. Will replying this thread later with report bugs number, I 
> hope this will be useful to prevent issue like this.
> 
> Thanks to Greg and Paul for great contribution on Debian Wiki.
> 
> p/s: Wiki Debian "Release page" == 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Debian<ADD_RELEASE_NAME_HERE>
> 

Here the bug report https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=991322

-- 
Robbi Nespu <robbinespu AT SPAMFREE gmail DOT com>
D311 B5FF EEE6 0BE8 9C91 FA9E 0C81 FA30 3B3A 80BA
https://robbinespu.gitlab.io | https://mstdn.social/@robbinespu

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