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Re: Offensive variable names

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  Re: Offensive variable names "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-13 09:10 +0200
    Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-13 09:30 +0200
      Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-13 11:00 +0200
        Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-13 11:30 +0200
        Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2021-07-13 11:30 +0200
          Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-13 12:00 +0200
        Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-13 14:10 +0200
          Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-13 14:10 +0200
          Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-13 15:10 +0200
            Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-13 16:20 +0200
              Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-07-13 17:30 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-13 18:00 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-07-13 21:40 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-13 22:00 +0200
                    Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-07-13 23:50 +0200
                    Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 06:10 +0200
                      Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2021-07-14 07:00 +0200
                        Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-07-14 16:20 +0200
                          Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-07-14 16:30 +0200
              Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> - 2021-07-13 21:40 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-07-13 22:30 +0200
                  [OT] Selling beer (was: Re: Working for free [was: Offensive  variable names]) Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2021-07-14 00:30 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 01:20 +0200
          Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> - 2021-07-13 19:30 +0200
            Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-13 20:10 +0200
              Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-13 20:40 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-07-13 21:00 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-13 21:50 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2021-07-14 00:40 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-14 09:40 +0200
                    Re: Working for free "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-14 09:50 +0200
                      Re: Working for free Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-14 11:50 +0200
                        Re: Working for free "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-14 12:40 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-07-14 15:00 +0200
                    Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-07-14 15:40 +0200
                    Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-14 19:20 +0200
              Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> - 2021-07-13 21:20 +0200
                Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 01:20 +0200
                  Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-07-14 08:50 +0200
                    Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 14:10 +0200
                      Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-14 15:10 +0200
      Re: Working for free "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-07-13 12:10 +0200
        Re: Working for free <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-07-13 12:10 +0200

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#237332 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:31:33 +0200
Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:


> 
> The mail you answer to sadly didn’t explain concretely what is the 
> payement, and how you can make money from it.  The answer is: selling 
> personal data.  Both what you output, what comes from you, and what
> is inputted to you, what to see.  Knowing what you say, what you see,
> what you like to see, and deciding it sells very profitably nowadays,
> agueably more than oil.
> 
> 

But is it all a fraud? OK, I know I'm not typical, but I don't notice
advertisements. I use various means to block most, but even the ones I
see simply don't register. I don't generally buy things advertised,
partly because I don't want to subsidise the whole advertising thing,
but partly because what gets advertised is what the manufacturers find
hardest to shift in adequate numbers. 

Good products are bought repeatedly, and people tell each other about
them. They don't need advertising. Back when we had TV advertisements
for beer, it was always the rubbish beers that got the publicity.
Courage would advertise John Courage, their poorest beer. They never
advertised Directors', or the bottled Russian Stout, or Bulldog ale.

As for 'targetted advertising', I've never seen any. When I notice the
ads around the sides of web pages, none of them are aimed at me, and
very few are aimed at anyone outside the US. So is this obsession with
collecting personal data on people actually paying off?

-- 
Joe

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#237334 — [OT] Selling beer (was: Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names])

Hi,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:25:17 +0100
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

(...)

> Back when we had TV advertisements
> for beer, it was always the rubbish beers that got the publicity.

here (Germany) we still have those TV ads for beer, and I can assure you
that the advertised brands (its not up to me to decide whether they are
rubbish or not) are the ones that are available virtually everywhere, so
I believe that it is safe to assume that they are also the brands that
sell.
So yes, unfortunately at least in some cases advertisements apparently
pay.
 
> As for 'targetted advertising', I've never seen any. When I notice the
> ads around the sides of web pages, none of them are aimed at me

The same here. So maybe I have developed some skills obscuring my
"profile" to "them", or (maybe more likely) I am just too dumb to realize
that those ads *are* in fact targeted at me :-)

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Vulcans believe peace should not depend on force.
		-- Amanda, "Journey to Babel", stardate 3842.3

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#237339 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:31:33 +0200
Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:

> Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 16:09:50 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:08:53 +0300
> > 
> > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 08:01:58AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from
> > > > > them
> > > > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> > > > 
> > > > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that
> > > > some
> > > > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly
> > > > is
> > > > gratis.
> > > 
> > > You do not pay for these services, yet they provide them to you and
> > > everyone else (with certain exclusions).
> > > Guess who is the product here? The answer is - you are the product.
> > > Payment involving money is not the only kind of payment that you can
> > > make today.
> > 
> > I think that's an unreasonable definition of gratis and non-gratis. If
> > a FLOSS dev gets an ego boost, or even some sort of spiritual
> > satisfaction, from people using his software, does that mean it's
> > non-gratis?
> 
> An ego-boost doesn’t grant power, that is, possibility of action of your 
> will on the actions of others.

Payment is not the same thing as power.
 
> But github as a platform provides a great deal of power to microsoft.  
> They litterally own your data.  Maybe not your programs, but maybe all 
> your metadata + what was listed later (bugreports, etc.).

As does Signal, etc.

> The mail you answer to sadly didn’t explain concretely what is the 
> payement, and how you can make money from it.  The answer is: selling 
> personal data.  Both what you output, what comes from you, and what is 
> inputted to you, what to see.  Knowing what you say, what you see, what 
> you like to see, and deciding it sells very profitably nowadays, agueably 
> more than oil.

Celejar

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#237322 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 14:01:58 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:54:43 +0300
> 
> Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > 	Hi.
> > 
> > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:20:12AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > > Working for free.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.
> > > 
> > > Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work... done for
> > > them [1].
> > 
> > Nothing had changed in this regard. Every software corporation always
> > adored enthusiasts doing their job for them. No exceptions.
> > 
> > > Not that this enhances my love for Microsoft, mind you. It rather
> > > confirms my initial gut feeling to stay out of Githubs way wherever
> > > I can.
> > 
> > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> 
> What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that some
> of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly is
> gratis.

Maybe we could say that you pay with your personal data, or with the, per 
network effect, power you give to microsoft to organize a social networking 
platform that’s very important for finding work, a lot more than their 
shitty linkedin

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#237323 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:28:39 +0200
Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:

> Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 14:01:58 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:54:43 +0300
> > 
> > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > > 	Hi.
> > > 
> > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:20:12AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > > > Working for free.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes. This aspect was always annoying to Microsoft and alike.
> > > > 
> > > > Times have changed. Now Microsoft *loves* free work... done for
> > > > them [1].
> > > 
> > > Nothing had changed in this regard. Every software corporation always
> > > adored enthusiasts doing their job for them. No exceptions.
> > > 
> > > > Not that this enhances my love for Microsoft, mind you. It rather
> > > > confirms my initial gut feeling to stay out of Githubs way wherever
> > > > I can.
> > > 
> > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from them
> > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> > 
> > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that some
> > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly is
> > gratis.
> 
> Maybe we could say that you pay with your personal data, or with the, per 
> network effect, power you give to microsoft to organize a social networking 
> platform that’s very important for finding work, a lot more than their 
> shitty linkedin

Fair enough. But by the same logic, things like Matrix and Signal are
not gratis, since by using them, you empower their controlling
foundations via the network effect.

Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!

Celejar

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#237324 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue 13 Jul 2021 at 14:00:44 -0400, Celejar wrote:

[...]

> Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
> considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!

That's stirring it even more!

May I suggest we get back on-topic. Greg Wooledge (he who has
disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
an interest in, That's what I would do.

-- 
Brian.

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#237325 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> May I suggest we get back on-topic.

There's a topic?  I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
even get back to it with a compass.

> Greg Wooledge (he who has
> disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> an interest in, That's what I would do.

I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
when I stand up for myself, who knows.

I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
pages for stretch and buster.  We'll see what happens next, I guess.

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#237330 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue 13 Jul 2021 at 14:59:27 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > May I suggest we get back on-topic.
> 
> There's a topic?  I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
> even get back to it with a compass.

Your OP was important and interesting.

> > Greg Wooledge (he who has
> > disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> > an interest in, That's what I would do.
> 
> I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.

Fair enough.

>                                                     Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.

That's not correct. And it is not my view. I would have gone about
the issue in a different way, but that is just me. It is of legitimate
concern.

>                                                     Or maybe it's just
> when I stand up for myself, who knows.

I think your reaction does point to a difficiency in wiki management.
 
> I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
> pages for stretch and buster.  We'll see what happens next, I guess

I have not looked yet but that is what I would do.

-- 
Brian.
> 

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#237336 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

Hi,

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:59:27 -0400
Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:

> Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.

be asssured, that is not the case.

Best regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Vulcans never bluff.
		-- Spock, "The Doomsday Machine", stardate 4202.1

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#237358 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-07-13 2:59 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:

> I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
> when I stand up for myself, who knows.

Are you in need to be nurtured ?

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#237359 — Re: Working for free

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
> > any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
> > when I stand up for myself, who knows.

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Are you in need to be nurtured ?

Are you fishing for quarrel ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#237362 — Re: Working for free

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-07-14 3:44 a.m., Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>> I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
>>> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
>>> when I stand up for myself, who knows.
> 
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Are you in need to be nurtured ?
> 
> Are you fishing for quarrel ?
> 
> 
This was a joke.
Also, playing the victim is never a good way to go ;-)
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#237366 — Re: Working for free

Hi,

i wrote:
> > Are you fishing for quarrel ?

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> This was a joke.
> Also, playing the victim is never a good way to go ;-)

Your second sentence could be understood that your answer is "Yes".

Greg Wooledge has noted that his recent tone was not well received and
indicated that he is not happy about that. This is surely not "playing the
victim".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case my opinion is of interest for you, Greg:

Your wording about Paul Wise's change of your wiki text was inappropriate
by the generalized assumption of his intentions and by projecting your
anger on him as a person.
(I mean the last four lines of
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/07/msg00503.html )

In general your words are sometimes more gruffy than the recipient deserves.

But modulo that, i'm in agreement with you most times.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#237376 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 02:59:27PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > May I suggest we get back on-topic.
> 
> There's a topic?  I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
> even get back to it with a compass.
> 
> > Greg Wooledge (he who has
> > disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> > an interest in, That's what I would do.
> 
> I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
> any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
> when I stand up for myself, who knows.
> 
> I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
> pages for stretch and buster.  We'll see what happens next, I guess.
> 

For what it's worth - I had a check on IRC in debian-www

The wiki isn't as tightly policed and is more of a free for all: if you see
something that's wrong, you can change it. There's a creative tension between
what should sit on the wiki / what should be on www.debian.org.

I also had a quick chat with Paul on IRC

He'd forgotten about the change: it was that long ago. He did make the point
that it seemed sensible to centre it on SourcesList for him: it's no huge 
matter since anything can be changed.

Each set of release notes also has the sources.list stanzas in it, I think,
and if you're coming from updating older releases, you'd be looking to the
next set of release notes anyway to see what's changed, ideally.

There Is No Cabal - this isn't quite Wikipedia with policies, edit wars 
and badged issues police, at least as far as the wiki's concerned.
www.d.o is a bit tighter - not least because well-intentioned edits cause
havoc with the good folk who do translations and there's a defined process
so that they don't end up having to re-edit tens of pages for a tiny fix
on a URL, for example. [Been there, caused that, got the T shirt]

This list has a bunch of varying experience and expertise - all of it is
valuable and valued.

All the very best, as ever, to all

Andy Cater

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#237380 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:53:00PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> For what it's worth - I had a check on IRC in debian-www
> 
> The wiki isn't as tightly policed and is more of a free for all: if you see
> something that's wrong, you can change it. There's a creative tension between
> what should sit on the wiki / what should be on www.debian.org.
> 
> I also had a quick chat with Paul on IRC
> 
> He'd forgotten about the change: it was that long ago. He did make the point
> that it seemed sensible to centre it on SourcesList for him: it's no huge 
> matter since anything can be changed.

OK.  Thank you for all of that.

I don't know how others approach it, but for me, the wiki is the place
where end users like myself can contribute with our own knowledge
and experience.  www.debian.org is the "official" information source,
centrally controlled, curated, and off limits for the end users.

The two sites borrow from each other as needed.  This is fine.  There's
no need to prevent duplication of content.  In a worst case scenario,
if one of the two sites is unavailable for some reason, the other one
is a backup.  In more ordinary situations, the two sites have different
organizational structures and different focuses, so specific pieces of
information may be easier to find on one site than on the other.  That's
also fine.

> Each set of release notes also has the sources.list stanzas in it, I think,

Not that I can find.  And I just looked.

> and if you're coming from updating older releases, you'd be looking to the
> next set of release notes anyway to see what's changed, ideally.

As a regular on the #debian IRC channel, I can assure you that "what
do I put in sources.list for ___ release" really *is* one of the most
frequently asked questions.

There are several reasons for this, and I don't claim to know all of
them, but one of the biggest reasons is that a large number of Debian
installations do not provide a working Internet sources.list file.  Perhaps
because the network interface(s) were not working during installation,
perhaps because of missing wifi firmware, yadda yadda yadda.  The point
is, people *need* this information.  Having multiple redundant copies of
it is helpful.

Another big reason only applies to the older releases.  "I have an old
server running ___ and its sources.list doesn't work any more.  What do I
use?"  This is unbelievably common, and it obviously isn't going to be
covered by reading the wheezy (or whatever version's) release notes.

> There Is No Cabal - this isn't quite Wikipedia with policies, edit wars 
> and badged issues police, at least as far as the wiki's concerned.
> www.d.o is a bit tighter - not least because well-intentioned edits cause
> havoc with the good folk who do translations and there's a defined process
> so that they don't end up having to re-edit tens of pages for a tiny fix
> on a URL, for example. [Been there, caused that, got the T shirt]

OK.  I'll admit that I may have been over-sensitive, because I have been
on the receiving end of an extremely vicious wiki cabal in the past, with
a different community and a different wiki.  So I may have extrapolated
patterns that don't exist, here, from a single incident.

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#237390 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Wed 14 Jul 2021 at 12:53:00 +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 02:59:27PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 07:32:19PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > May I suggest we get back on-topic.
> > 
> > There's a topic?  I think we're so far from the topic that we can't
> > even get back to it with a compass.
> > 
> > > Greg Wooledge (he who has
> > > disappeared) could just sensitively edit the wiki page he has
> > > an interest in, That's what I would do.
> > 
> > I "disappeared" because I had nothing more to say.  Also apparently
> > any time I say anything, I'm perceived as a jerk.  Or maybe it's just
> > when I stand up for myself, who knows.
> > 
> > I've restored the sources.list entries in the FAQ sections of the wiki
> > pages for stretch and buster.  We'll see what happens next, I guess.
> > 
> 
> For what it's worth - I had a check on IRC in debian-www

That's worth a lot.
 
> The wiki isn't as tightly policed and is more of a free for all: if you see
> something that's wrong, you can change it. There's a creative tension between
> what should sit on the wiki / what should be on www.debian.org.

As far as "free for all" is concerned, the contrast is between the wiki
and www.debian.org. If one contrasts our wiki guidance wuth that given
for Ubuntu and Arch Linux, there are significant differences. Given
that, the editors who work on our wiki are remarkably self-disciplined
and the quality of pages is good. (The translation effort should be
noted and applauded here).

AFAICT, there isn't any formal central authority for wiki management in
Debian. That's not a complainte, but it does raise the question of where
an editor turns to for discussion of an issue.

I am glad this issue has been resolved to the benefit of users and
editors.

-- 
Brian.

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#237326 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 20:00:44 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:28:39 +0200
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
> > Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 14:01:58 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:54:43 +0300
> > > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from
> > > > them
> > > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> > > 
> > > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that
> > > some
> > > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly
> > > is
> > > gratis.
> > 
> > Maybe we could say that you pay with your personal data, or with the,
> > per network effect, power you give to microsoft to organize a social
> > networking platform that’s very important for finding work, a lot
> > more than their shitty linkedin
> 
> Fair enough. But by the same logic, things like Matrix and Signal are
> not gratis, since by using them, you empower their controlling
> foundations via the network effect.

Signal is not a lucrative company (yet… who knows, looking at their bad 
faith), but you’re right there, because since they’re centralized and 
depending on proprietary OSes, you indeed grant power by using them.  But 
Signal is not so powerful, so it’s not a so big problem, it’s only sad 
given their stated goal, and its ideological proximity with software 
freedom and net decentralization…

Matrix is meant to be decentralized, so network effect shouldn’t apply.  
But maybe your message is a critic of good faith of matrix people and 
their network, because of instability (hence unstandardness) of their 
protocol, asymetry in their gateways (remembering a bit discord…), big 
asymetries in development of their clients, official non-free client, and 
total (wilingful?) blindness about existing implementations such as xmpp 
u.u

Same can be argued about Twitter, Facebook, etc.  One one hand, they’re 
gratis of charges, no money is required to enter, on the other hand “if 
it’s gratis, you are the product”, and indeed these are companies that 
make actual money. Big money, GAFAM are among the richest in the world u.u  
And Twitter is pretty powerful (even and especially politically) after 
all.

> Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
> considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!

No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social 
network.  Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative.  Currently nobody can get 
*power* from it.

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#237340 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:09:32 +0200
Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:

> Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 20:00:44 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:28:39 +0200
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
> > > Le mardi 13 juillet 2021, 14:01:58 CEST Celejar a écrit :
> > > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:54:43 +0300
> > > > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > > > > Github (Gitlab, Sourceforge, etc) were and are non-free (as in -
> > > > > non-gratis) services, so it's only reasonable to stay away from
> > > > > them
> > > > > regardless of whom is controlling them.
> > > > 
> > > > What do you mean by calling them non-gratis services? I know that
> > > > some
> > > > of their services are non-gratis, but basic code hosting certainly
> > > > is
> > > > gratis.
> > > 
> > > Maybe we could say that you pay with your personal data, or with the,
> > > per network effect, power you give to microsoft to organize a social
> > > networking platform that’s very important for finding work, a lot
> > > more than their shitty linkedin
> > 
> > Fair enough. But by the same logic, things like Matrix and Signal are
> > not gratis, since by using them, you empower their controlling
> > foundations via the network effect.
> 
> Signal is not a lucrative company (yet… who knows, looking at their bad 
> faith), but you’re right there, because since they’re centralized and 
> depending on proprietary OSes, you indeed grant power by using them.  But 
> Signal is not so powerful, so it’s not a so big problem, it’s only sad 
> given their stated goal, and its ideological proximity with software 
> freedom and net decentralization…
> 
> Matrix is meant to be decentralized, so network effect shouldn’t apply.  

Network effect applies since the more people use it, the more valuable
and useful the network becomes, and the more difficult and inconvenient
it is for everyone to move to another network.

Please note that none of this is a criticism of Signal or Matrix - I'm
just making a reductio ad absurdum argument against the idea that
systems that involve a network effect should not be considered "gratis."

> But maybe your message is a critic of good faith of matrix people and 
> their network, because of instability (hence unstandardness) of their 
> protocol, asymetry in their gateways (remembering a bit discord…), big 
> asymetries in development of their clients, official non-free client, and 
> total (wilingful?) blindness about existing implementations such as xmpp 
> u.u

As above, I am making no criticism of Matrix or Signal (here, although
I've criticized Signal elsewhere, on other grounds).

> Same can be argued about Twitter, Facebook, etc.  One one hand, they’re 
> gratis of charges, no money is required to enter, on the other hand “if 
> it’s gratis, you are the product”, and indeed these are companies that 
> make actual money. Big money, GAFAM are among the richest in the world u.u  
> And Twitter is pretty powerful (even and especially politically) after 
> all.
> 
> > Hey, for that matter, Debian is not gratis, since by using it, we grant
> > considerable power to the DDs, their committees, and the DPL!
> 
> No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social 
> network.  Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative.  Currently nobody can get 
> *power* from it.

I'm not sure what you mean by non-lucrative, but even though
there's no money involved, that does not mean that there's no power.
The power to decide what software to include in the distribution and
what to exclude is certainly power. Debian has an elaborate
constitution, with all kinds of rules, and the organization has
considerable power over the distribution. This is similar, in my mind,
to the power that an organization like Facebook has over its network.

In theory Facebook users can go somewhere else, but in practice, this
can be quite difficult. Similarly, if I don't like decisions Debian
takes, I'm free to find a different distribution. In practice, this is a
non-trivial step.

Of course, the power of Debian concerns me much less than Facebook's
power, since I am much (vastly) happier with the ideals and transparency
of Debian than that of Facebook.

Again, I am certainly not claiming that Debian and Facebook (for
example) are remotely equivalent institutions. I am merely making the
reductio ad absurdum argument that defining terms like "gratis" as
broadly as some in this thread seem to do implies that Debian's
offerings aren't gratis.

Celejar

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#237351 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:17:37 -0400
Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:09:32 +0200
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
> 
 
> > 
> > No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social 
> > network.  Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative.  Currently nobody can
> > get *power* from it.  
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by non-lucrative, but even though
> there's no money involved, that does not mean that there's no power.
> The power to decide what software to include in the distribution and
> what to exclude is certainly power. Debian has an elaborate
> constitution, with all kinds of rules, and the organization has
> considerable power over the distribution. This is similar, in my mind,
> to the power that an organization like Facebook has over its network.
> 

I think in this context that 'power' means power over the real world,
not just within a medium. It is unlikely that Debian can swing an
election result. Debian has rules, but not over what people are
permitted to discuss.

-- 
Joe

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#237372 — Re: Working for free [was: Offensive variable names]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:45:08 +0100
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 19:17:37 -0400
> Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:09:32 +0200
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
> > 
>  
> > > 
> > > No, they’re not submitted to network effect, Debian is not a social 
> > > network.  Moreover, Debian is non-lucrative.  Currently nobody can
> > > get *power* from it.  
> > 
> > I'm not sure what you mean by non-lucrative, but even though
> > there's no money involved, that does not mean that there's no power.
> > The power to decide what software to include in the distribution and
> > what to exclude is certainly power. Debian has an elaborate
> > constitution, with all kinds of rules, and the organization has
> > considerable power over the distribution. This is similar, in my mind,
> > to the power that an organization like Facebook has over its network.
> > 
> 
> I think in this context that 'power' means power over the real world,
> not just within a medium. It is unlikely that Debian can swing an
> election result. Debian has rules, but not over what people are
> permitted to discuss.

I concur completely with your distinction, and I agree that it's an
important one. The original topic of the conversation, however, was
Github and friends, and I doubt that Github can swing an election
result, either.

Celejar

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