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Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

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  Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-11-22 17:20 +0100
    Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest] "Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> - 2020-11-22 18:00 +0100
      Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-11-22 18:30 +0100
        Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest] "Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> - 2020-11-22 18:40 +0100
      Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-11-22 18:30 +0100
        Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest] "Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> - 2020-11-22 18:40 +0100
          Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-11-22 19:00 +0100
          Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-11-22 23:50 +0100
        Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest] "Gareth Evans" <garethevans@fastmail.fm> - 2020-11-22 18:50 +0100
        Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-11-22 20:10 +0100
          Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-11-22 20:20 +0100
            Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-11-23 17:20 +0100
              Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and  --link-dest] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-11-23 23:20 +0100
      Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest] "Jeremy Nicoll" <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> - 2020-11-23 20:50 +0100

#228917 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:10:10 +0200
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Andrei,

>Starting a new e-mail requires filling out at least the To: address so 
>it is easier to reply instead (especially with many addresses in To:
>and Cc: that one wants to keep).

For many people, yes.  However......

Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.

The trouble is, many, many people are used to the way Microsoft's MUA
does things;  that is - not at all, or even worse, incorrectly.

Examples:
 In-Reply-To headers being transported, but not honoured
 An inability to filter on sensible headers like List-Id

You'll notice I've used Claws Mail's ability to Remove references, to
place this mail outside the hi-jacked thread.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
The public gets what the public wants
Going Underground - The Jam

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#228918 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 15:38, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:10:10 +0200
> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Andrei,
> 
> >Starting a new e-mail requires filling out at least the To: address so 
> >it is easier to reply instead (especially with many addresses in To:
> >and Cc: that one wants to keep).
> 
> For many people, yes.  However......
> 
> Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
> all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.
> 
> The trouble is, many, many people are used to the way Microsoft's MUA
> does things;  that is - not at all, or even worse, incorrectly.
> 
> Examples:
>  In-Reply-To headers being transported, but not honoured
>  An inability to filter on sensible headers like List-Id
> 
> You'll notice I've used Claws Mail's ability to Remove references, to
> place this mail outside the hi-jacked thread.
> 
> -- 
>  Regards  _
>          / )           "The blindingly obvious is
>         / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
> The public gets what the public wants
> Going Underground - The Jam
>

Thanks to all who have replied pointing out the issues.

In my defence, I don't use conversation view in general (so lack experience) and had imagined Fastmail's documented approach (for its webmail and app) to be standards-based:

"Conversations get split apart and form new conversation threads when:

1. The subject changes
    This usually means a new topic is being discussed so a new conversation thread is formed.
[...]"

https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/conversations.html

I now realise this is at odds with the relevant standards (and eg. Thunderbird's approach):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation_threading

Anyway, apologies.

Brad:

> Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
> all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.

When does clicking "compose" have this effect?

Thanks,
Gareth

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#228919

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On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 04:55:19PM +0000, Gareth Evans wrote:

[...]

> Thanks to all who have replied pointing out the issues.

No worries. Things happen. No need to defend yourself, I hope.

> In my defence, I don't use conversation view in general (so lack experience) and had imagined Fastmail's documented approach (for its webmail and app) to be standards-based:
> 
> "Conversations get split apart and form new conversation threads when:
> 
> 1. The subject changes
>     This usually means a new topic is being discussed so a new conversation thread is formed.
> [...]"

Yeah. That's, sadly, something Outlook inflicted on us.

> https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/conversations.html
> 
> I now realise this is at odds with the relevant standards (and eg. Thunderbird's approach):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation_threading
> 
> Anyway, apologies.

It'd on me to apologise should I have created bad feelings.

This mailing list is a big marketplace, and trying to point
out conventions which help to keep communication easy is
something I do from time to time. I try to convey things
without being hurtful -- just tell me whenever I fail at
that :)

Cheers
-- t

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#228922 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 17:20, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 04:55:19PM +0000, Gareth Evans wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Thanks to all who have replied pointing out the issues.
> 
> No worries. Things happen. No need to defend yourself, I hope.
> 
> > In my defence, I don't use conversation view in general (so lack experience) and had imagined Fastmail's documented approach (for its webmail and app) to be standards-based:
> > 
> > "Conversations get split apart and form new conversation threads when:
> > 
> > 1. The subject changes
> >     This usually means a new topic is being discussed so a new conversation thread is formed.
> > [...]"
> 
> Yeah. That's, sadly, something Outlook inflicted on us.
> 
> > https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/conversations.html
> > 
> > I now realise this is at odds with the relevant standards (and eg. Thunderbird's approach):
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation_threading
> > 
> > Anyway, apologies.
> 
> It'd on me to apologise should I have created bad feelings.
> 
> This mailing list is a big marketplace, and trying to point
> out conventions which help to keep communication easy is
> something I do from time to time. I try to convey things
> without being hurtful -- just tell me whenever I fail at
> that :)
> 
> Cheers
> -- t
> 
> Attachments:
> * signature.asc


Hi Tomas,

No problem at all, I appreciate such issues being pointed out.

For the record, I am in favour of getting people to learn how things actually (and/or are supposed to) work, rather than partial conventions or proprietary approaches which cause problems.  Email seems to be beset by such issues!

Best wishes,
Gareth

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#228920

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:55:19 +0000
"Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Hello Gareth,

>On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 15:38, Brad Rogers wrote:
>> Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
>> all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.  
>When does clicking "compose" have this effect?

With a suitable MUA (example; Claws Mail) when you create a folder for
mails from a mailing list, it's possible to set up default addresses for
To, From and Reply-To to be used for that folder.  With Claws, it's even
possible to set up default Cc: and BCc headers.

Once all that's done, one simply selects the folder, and clicks
'Compose'.  All you need to do then is insert a suitable subject header,
and compose your message.

As I said above it does, of course, require an MUA that's suitably
capable.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
We don't give a damn
One Chord Wonders - The Adverts

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#228921 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 17:08, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:55:19 +0000
> > "Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > 
> > Hello Gareth,
> > 
> > >On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 15:38, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > >> Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
> > >> all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.  
> > >When does clicking "compose" have this effect?
> > 
> > With a suitable MUA (example; Claws Mail) when you create a folder for
> > mails from a mailing list, it's possible to set up default addresses for
> > To, From and Reply-To to be used for that folder.  With Claws, it's even
> > possible to set up default Cc: and BCc headers.
> > 
> > Once all that's done, one simply selects the folder, and clicks
> > 'Compose'.  All you need to do then is insert a suitable subject header,
> > and compose your message.
> > 
> > As I said above it does, of course, require an MUA that's suitably
> > capable.
> > 
> > -- 
> >  Regards  _
> >          / )           "The blindingly obvious is
> >         / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
> > We don't give a damn
> > One Chord Wonders - The Adverts
> >

Thanks Brad, I may be a Claws convert!

G

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#228924

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:39:06 +0000
"Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Hello Gareth,

>Thanks Brad, I may be a Claws convert!

You're welcome, Gareth.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
It's a very small world in the middle of a crowd
Staring At The Rude Boys - The Ruts

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#228931

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:39:06 +0000
"Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> > On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 17:08, Brad Rogers wrote:

...

> > > With a suitable MUA (example; Claws Mail) when you create a folder for
> > > mails from a mailing list, it's possible to set up default addresses for
> > > To, From and Reply-To to be used for that folder.  With Claws, it's even
> > > possible to set up default Cc: and BCc headers.
> > > 
> > > Once all that's done, one simply selects the folder, and clicks
> > > 'Compose'.  All you need to do then is insert a suitable subject header,
> > > and compose your message.
> > > 
> > > As I said above it does, of course, require an MUA that's suitably
> > > capable.

...

> Thanks Brad, I may be a Claws convert!

Just FTR, this is equally possible with Sylpheed (the MUA that Claws
began as a fork of).

Celejar

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#228923 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

I may be a Claws convert :)

Thanks
G

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 17:08, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:55:19 +0000
> "Gareth Evans" <donotspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> 
> Hello Gareth,
> 
> >On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 15:38, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >> Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
> >> all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.  
> >When does clicking "compose" have this effect?
> 
> With a suitable MUA (example; Claws Mail) when you create a folder for
> mails from a mailing list, it's possible to set up default addresses for
> To, From and Reply-To to be used for that folder.  With Claws, it's even
> possible to set up default Cc: and BCc headers.
> 
> Once all that's done, one simply selects the folder, and clicks
> 'Compose'.  All you need to do then is insert a suitable subject header,
> and compose your message.
> 
> As I said above it does, of course, require an MUA that's suitably
> capable.
> 
> -- 
>  Regards  _
>          / )           "The blindingly obvious is
>         / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
> We don't give a damn
> One Chord Wonders - The Adverts
>

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#228926

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:08:42 +0000
Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> wrote:

> With a suitable MUA (example; Claws Mail) when you create a folder for
> mails from a mailing list, it's possible to set up default addresses
> for To, From and Reply-To to be used for that folder.  With Claws,
> it's even possible to set up default Cc: and BCc headers.

Thank you. I just learned something useful about Claws-Mail.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#228927

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On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:39:20 -0700
Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:

Hello Charles,

>Thank you. I just learned something useful about Claws-Mail.

You're welcome.

For those interested, Claws Mail has it's own mailing list.

Subscribe here;
<https://lists.claws-mail.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users>
or by emailing
<mailto:users-request@lists.claws-mail.org?subject=subscribe>

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Now would I say something that wasn't true?
Would I Lie To You - Eurythmics

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#228967

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:14:05 +0000
Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:39:20 -0700
> Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Charles,
> 
> >Thank you. I just learned something useful about Claws-Mail.
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> For those interested, Claws Mail has it's own mailing list.
> 
> Subscribe here;
> <https://lists.claws-mail.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users>
> or by emailing
> <mailto:users-request@lists.claws-mail.org?subject=subscribe>

I made this same point in another email, but I just want to remind
people generally that Sylpheed, Claws's "parent," has many of the
features that people like Claws for. It also has its own mailing list ;)

https://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/ml.html

Celejar

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#228977

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On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:17:56 -0500
Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Celejar,

>I made this same point in another email, but I just want to remind

Indeed you did.  And rightly so;

It's possible that my messages could be construed as saying CM is the
_only_ MUA capable of such configuration.

That was not my intention.  There's definitely Sylpheed.  I have no
first hand knowledge of others, but suspect they exist.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
It's only the children of the f****** wealthy tend to be good looking
Ugly - The Stranglers

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#228974 — Re: Hijacking Threads [was: Re: rsync link corruption with -H and --link-dest]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, at 16:55, Gareth Evans wrote:

> > Once one sets up an MUA correctly, one only has to click 'Compose' for
> > all the required fields, apart from Subject, to be filled in.
> 
> When does clicking "compose" have this effect?

In a good (probably standalone) MUA.

In Fastmail's webmail system there's not much of that flexibility, however
in a specific folder's "Advanced Preferences" you can set the identity 
which will be used when you compose a mail when that is the current folder.

So here, if I have my debian-users folder selected, then click on Compose
(which annoyingly needs me to scroll the folders list back to the top), the 
new window will open with "From:" set appropriately.

I have to set the "To:" address manually, but in contacts I defined all my 
mailing list to-addresses as "ML - list name" so typing just ML in the TO
field gives me a picking list of valid values.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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