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on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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  on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 06:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 06:10 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 07:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-07 11:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-07 19:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? John Boxall <jboxall47@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:50 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-07 23:50 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 00:10 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 14:30 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 09:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 10:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-07 19:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-07 20:00 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 11:00 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-09 16:00 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 17:00 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-09 18:50 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 11:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:20 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-07 18:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 14:20 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 01:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 03:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 03:40 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 05:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-09 06:20 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-09 14:20 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-09 14:40 +0100
                              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 11:00 +0100
                                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-10 12:30 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-09 18:10 +0100
                              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 22:20 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-09 16:10 +0100
                          Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 22:00 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 22:20 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 00:10 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of   … rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-10 00:20 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:50 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:00 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:10 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-03-08 18:30 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:00 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 11:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2021-03-08 09:20 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 14:00 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:50 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 02:30 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 04:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 22:20 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 23:00 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 00:20 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-10 01:00 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 01:30 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-10 03:30 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2021-03-10 06:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 20:40 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 23:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 22:00 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-07 22:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-07 22:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 22:50 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-07 22:50 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 01:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 03:00 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 03:40 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 05:00 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-08 14:40 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-03-08 15:10 +0100
                            power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-08 17:20 +0100
                              Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 18:10 +0100
                                Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-09 02:10 +0100
                              Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 22:40 +0100
                                Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-09 02:20 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 23:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 19:40 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 21:20 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 09:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 13:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100

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#232498 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 00:48:04 -0800
David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

> On 3/6/21 9:02 PM, Dan Hitt wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
> >> figure out what to do.

...

> >> I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
> >> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
> >> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.
> 
> I tend to buy/ build used Dell and Intel stuff, because it is readily 
> available and affordable.

...

> I have seen desktops go from 5.25" HDD's to 3.5" HDD's to 2.5" SSD's to 
> M.2 SSD/NVMe's.  The available drive bays and interfaces has changed 
> accordingly.  You might want to look at workstations, servers, NAS, or 
> homebrew chassis if you really need three 3.5" HDD's (internal and/or 
> rack mount).

...

> >> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
> >> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
> >> purposes.
> 
> Dual Ethernet is uncommon on desktop boards/ chassis.  You can find them 
> on workstations, servers, NAS chassis, and router chassis.
> 
> 
> HDD's, and espcially SSD's, can now saturate Gigabit.  I am starting to 
> consider upgrading my SOHO LAN to 10 Gb copper.  This means PCIe x4 
> NIC's and a matching switch.
> 
> 
> >> And i think i'd like to stick with debian, but i would consider any free
> >> OS.  (So if i bought a Dell, i would add a disk drive or two, and boot off
> >> the debian disk, probably removing the windows disk.)
> >>
> >> I'd appreciate any pointers or recommendations.
> >>
> > 
> > And i forgot to add that i would like to be able to easily run qemu or
> > other virtual machines.  How would that affect the choice of processor,
> > amount of memory, and disks?
> 
> Get a processor with extensions that support virtualization.  For Intel, 
> that means VT-d, VT-x, etc.. A Core i5 or better should suffice for 
> desktop virtualization.  For a virtualization server, you want a Xeon.
> 
> 
> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
> stuff has the former, workstation and server stuff done right has the 
> latter.  STFW "memory error", "bit rot" and related.  I prefer computers 
> with ECC memory.

Just a few comments regarding workstations: my desktop is an HP Z440,
and I really like it. I purchased it used on eBay, where you can find
all sorts of Z420s and Z440s (as well as similar Dell Precisions, etc.)
at very affordable prices (e.g., $250~$300 for a system including a
decent Xeon and 16GB (ECC) RAM is common, and you may do substantially
better with a good deal, although you'll probably want / need to buy
drives, GPU, etc. separately). You can also go barebones and buy even
the processor and RAM separately.

The advantage of this route is great value for money, including Xeon
and ECC RAM compatibility, various other workstation features, and
excellent build quality.

There are, however, disadvantages as well (besides the fact that
anything used involves some risk): these types of machines can have
proprietary and non-standard aspects. E.g., I wasted a great deal of
time (and some money) during deployment of my Z440 when I made the
fatal decision to enable Secure Boot in the BIOS. When Secure Boot is
enabled, the system will fail to boot if it finds peripherals not in a
whitelist. The Z440 has no onboard graphics, and the consumer RX-570 I
had installed was definitely not on the whitelist, so the machine
refused to boot, and I couldn't disable Secure Boot without graphics
output. (Even blindly resetting CMOS may not work, since HP flashes a
code on the screen which you have to enter via the keyboard to confirm
changes, at least under certain circumstances.) I eventually wound up
spending $13 for a Nvidia NVS 315 that was on the whitelist, and then
another $8 for a DMS-59 adapter to make the thing work with a normal
monitor ...

But again, the advantages of the hardware quality once you get this
sort of nonsense ironed out are substantial ...

Celejar

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#232501 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 3/7/21 11:03 AM, Celejar wrote:

> There are, however, disadvantages as well (besides the fact that
> anything used involves some risk): these types of machines can have
> proprietary and non-standard aspects. E.g., I wasted a great deal of
> time (and some money) during deployment of my Z440 when I made the
> fatal decision to enable Secure Boot in the BIOS. When Secure Boot is
> enabled, the system will fail to boot if it finds peripherals not in a
> whitelist. The Z440 has no onboard graphics, and the consumer RX-570 I
> had installed was definitely not on the whitelist, so the machine
> refused to boot, and I couldn't disable Secure Boot without graphics
> output. (Even blindly resetting CMOS may not work, since HP flashes a
> code on the screen which you have to enter via the keyboard to confirm
> changes, at least under certain circumstances.) I eventually wound up
> spending $13 for a Nvidia NVS 315 that was on the whitelist, and then
> another $8 for a DMS-59 adapter to make the thing work with a normal
> monitor ...


Interesting story.  I have encountered baffling engineering by HP more 
than once over the years, and therefore avoid their products.  But, no 
brand is immune from this effect.  My strategy has been "to stay in the 
middle of the herd" with Intel and Dell products.  The issues I 
encounter are often known and can be solved with Google.


David

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#232483 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Dan Hitt wrote: 
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
> > figure out what to do.

What are your needs, and what's your budget?

Are you comfortable plugging together components to build a
machine, or do you want to pay for the convenience of having
someone else do it?

-dsr-

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#232491

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:54 AM Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> Dan Hitt wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
> > > figure out what to do.
>
> What are your needs, and what's your budget?
>
> Are you comfortable plugging together components to build a
> machine, or do you want to pay for the convenience of having
> someone else do it?
>

Thanks Dan for your message.

I'm comfortable with plugging the components together if it's easy :) :).

That is, for some boxes, it is very easy to attach a drive.  On these old
mac pros, the side slips off, and you basically can just shove in a drive.
On the machine that i am replacing, it's a little harder, because you have
to attach a cable to the drive and i think maybe a power cable as well,
iirc.  But on some machines it is very hard because the cable may be tight,
or the insides might be all jammed together.  So i guess part of what i
want is a box that opens and expands easily.  I'm just a little leery of
adding cards, though, because in my experience they can destabilize a
system.

And as to what i'm using it for, well, just the usual---internet,
programming, viewing images, listening to audio, etc.  Nothing fancy like
controlling real-time hardware (i'd want a dedicated box before doing
something like that).

dan


>
> -dsr-
>

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#232481

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

>
>
> When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
> dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
> However, i don't want to get involved with that again.
>

Motherboard firmware could be switched to the legacy BIOS/MBR mode, so you
do not have to use UEFI if you do not want to.
But I do not see any reason to do so: UEFI just works fine nowadays.

In UEFI world, PC has a special small fat32-formatted partition with ".efi"
file: it is an application written for UEFI. Motherboard's firmware (we
call it BIOS, but technically it should be called UEFI) runs this
application and it loads OS.
In Linux, GRUB provides this efi app.

If your harddrive is larger than ~4terabytes, you would need to use GPT
instead of MBR, and I believe you would need UEFI to boot from it.



> I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.
>

It is better to buy a PC recommended by a vendor. System76 is good.  Here
is another approach: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop
Otherwise you would need to check carefully that all hardware is supported
by Linux.
Not all devices have Linux drivers, unfortunately.


> I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
> disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
> external usb drive.  Does that make sense?
>
> Many motherboards have three SATA III ports. If you need something very
fast you may also use nvme.
Almost all motherboards produced in the last 13 years can boot from
external USB.

Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb 3.0?
> I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.
>
USB 3 is much faster and backward compatible with USB 2.0.
You do need this speed for mouse and keyboard, but it could be useful for
pendrive.
All modern motherboards have 3.0. Even if some ports are 2.0, use them for
keyboard/mouse.
In most cases 3.0 ports are blue, 2.0 are black.


> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
> purposes.
>
It is an uncommon requirement) Why?
Are you building a router or something with channel bonding?

There are USB ethernet adapters, but if you buy one, double check that it
is supported by Linux!

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#232489

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 5:11 AM IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
>> dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
>> However, i don't want to get involved with that again.
>>
>
> Motherboard firmware could be switched to the legacy BIOS/MBR mode, so you
> do not have to use UEFI if you do not want to.
> But I do not see any reason to do so: UEFI just works fine nowadays.
>
> In UEFI world, PC has a special small fat32-formatted partition with
> ".efi" file: it is an application written for UEFI. Motherboard's
> firmware (we call it BIOS, but technically it should be called UEFI) runs
> this application and it loads OS.
> In Linux, GRUB provides this efi app.
>
> If your harddrive is larger than ~4terabytes, you would need to use GPT
> instead of MBR, and I believe you would need UEFI to boot from it.
>
>
>
>> I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
>> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
>> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.
>>
>
> It is better to buy a PC recommended by a vendor. System76 is good.  Here
> is another approach: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop
> Otherwise you would need to check carefully that all hardware is supported
> by Linux.
> Not all devices have Linux drivers, unfortunately.
>
>
>> I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
>> disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
>> external usb drive.  Does that make sense?
>>
>> Many motherboards have three SATA III ports. If you need something very
> fast you may also use nvme.
> Almost all motherboards produced in the last 13 years can boot from
> external USB.
>
> Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb
>> 3.0?  I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.
>>
> USB 3 is much faster and backward compatible with USB 2.0.
> You do need this speed for mouse and keyboard, but it could be useful for
> pendrive.
> All modern motherboards have 3.0. Even if some ports are 2.0, use them for
> keyboard/mouse.
> In most cases 3.0 ports are blue, 2.0 are black.
>
>
>> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
>> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
>> purposes.
>>
> It is an uncommon requirement) Why?
> Are you building a router or something with channel bonding
>


>
> There are USB ethernet adapters, but if you buy one, double check that it
> is supported by Linux!
>

Thanks IL for your message.  I indeed use ethernet-over-usb currently, and
it is fast enough for me.  But if i had a second port, it would be a little
less cluttered, so i'd like to do it if it is not too costly and doesn't
interfere with other goals. :)

dan

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#232500 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 3/7/21 9:55 AM, Dan Hitt wrote:

> I indeed use ethernet-over-usb currently, and
> it is fast enough for me.  But if i had a second port, it would be a little
> less cluttered, so i'd like to do it if it is not too costly and doesn't
> interfere with other goals. :)


Will the new computer connect to two Ethernet networks?  Why?


On 3/7/21 10:02 AM, Dan Hitt wrote:

 >> Are you comfortable plugging together components to build a
 >> machine, or do you want to pay for the convenience of having
 >> someone else do it?

 > I'm comfortable with plugging the components together if it's easy

I built homebrew desktops using Antec tower cases and Intel desktop 
boards for many years.  The last was based on a Sonata chassis with an 
included 500 W PSU.  It's very easy to add/ remove drives and has low 
noise features -- the four internal 3.5" drive bays feature vibration 
isolation grommets, the main cooling fan is large diameter with 
selectable RPM, the PSU fan is speed controlled, etc..  An Intel 
single-socket ATX server board and Antec "silent" tower chassis would be 
a good starting point.  I would buy a new chassis, rather than used; so 
that no parts are missing.


David

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#232512

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 11:01 AM David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
wrote:

> On 3/7/21 9:55 AM, Dan Hitt wrote:
>
> > I indeed use ethernet-over-usb currently, and
> > it is fast enough for me.  But if i had a second port, it would be a
> little
> > less cluttered, so i'd like to do it if it is not too costly and doesn't
> > interfere with other goals. :)
>
>
> Will the new computer connect to two Ethernet networks?  Why?
>
>
Thanks David for your mail.

The new computer will be connected to 2 ethernet networks (conceivably
more).

The reason for the two networks is that my modem-router is electrically
incompatible with one of my computers.  That computer freezes or otherwise
misbehaves when one of its ethernet ports is on a network which also has
the modem-router.  So i need to have 2 networks because one of my computers
is incompatible with my modem-router: one network contains the modem
router, and one network contains the incompatible computer, and all the
other hosts are on both networks.

Thanks for the rest of your message, and everything else you have written
in this thread, and thanks also everybody else for all this info which i am
trying to digest.

dan


>
> On 3/7/21 10:02 AM, Dan Hitt wrote:
>
>  >> Are you comfortable plugging together components to build a
>  >> machine, or do you want to pay for the convenience of having
>  >> someone else do it?
>
>  > I'm comfortable with plugging the components together if it's easy
>
> I built homebrew desktops using Antec tower cases and Intel desktop
> boards for many years.  The last was based on a Sonata chassis with an
> included 500 W PSU.  It's very easy to add/ remove drives and has low
> noise features -- the four internal 3.5" drive bays feature vibration
> isolation grommets, the main cooling fan is large diameter with
> selectable RPM, the PSU fan is speed controlled, etc..  An Intel
> single-socket ATX server board and Antec "silent" tower chassis would be
> a good starting point.  I would buy a new chassis, rather than used; so
> that no parts are missing.
>
>
> David
>
>

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#232514 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Dan Hitt composed on 2021-03-07 16:02 (UTC-0800):

> The reason for the two networks is that my modem-router is electrically
> incompatible with one of my computers.  That computer freezes or otherwise
> misbehaves when one of its ethernet ports is on a network which also has
> the modem-router.										
A $10 add-in NIC probably could have solved that more simply. Was more than one
ethernet cable tried with the problem PC? Was a crossover cable mistakenly used?
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#232518

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 4:16 PM Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Dan Hitt composed on 2021-03-07 16:02 (UTC-0800):
>
> > The reason for the two networks is that my modem-router is electrically
> > incompatible with one of my computers.  That computer freezes or
> otherwise
> > misbehaves when one of its ethernet ports is on a network which also has
> > the modem-router.
>
> A $10 add-in NIC probably could have solved that more simply. Was more
> than one
> ethernet cable tried with the problem PC? Was a crossover cable mistakenly
> used?
>

Thanks Felix for your message.  The incompatible computer is a mac, and it
is not the only mac that had trouble with the router, and the problem is
not just through a cable but also wireless (for a different mac laptop that
i had for a job).  The cable that i used is still in use, but to a LAN
instead.  So there seems to be some incompatibility between the old mac and
the router-modem.  Both however are black boxes and i am constrained from
just wiping the mac and installing debian on it, to see if this is just a
software issue.  (And i'm not even sure that i legally own the modem-router
or if my isp does.)

On the other hand, a usb-ethernet converter is not too expensive, and it
works ok.  So having only one ethernet port on my new computer would be ok,
but if two were on the motherboard then i could use them both.  :)

dan


> --
> Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
>         is based on faith, not on science.
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>

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#232528 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Dan Hitt composed on 2021-03-07 16:33 (UTC-0800):

> Felix Miata wrote:

> So there seems to be some incompatibility between the old mac and
> the router-modem.  Both however are black boxes and i am constrained from
> just wiping the mac and installing debian on it, to see if this is just a
> software issue.  (And i'm not even sure that i legally own the modem-router
> or if my isp does.)										
At retail level, modem-routers seem to be rather uncommon. OTOH, owning your own
modem and router can produce an ISP savings that will pay for a modem and/or
router in as little as 6-12 months by buying quality "refurbs". I have multiples
of both, so that an ISP has little opportunity to fault my hardware when I have a
service complaint.

My iMac has MacOS and Linux X2. Changing the HD was more work than adding Linux.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#232532 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On Sun 07 Mar 2021 at 20:39:12 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:

> At retail level, modem-routers seem to be rather uncommon. OTOH, owning your own
> modem and router can produce an ISP savings that will pay for a modem and/or
> router in as little as 6-12 months by buying quality "refurbs". I have multiples
> of both, so that an ISP has little opportunity to fault my hardware when I have a
> service complaint.

I've never has two working modems (cable) on site at the same time.
How do ISPs react to having two different MAC-addressed devices
connecting from the same customer? (My Internet connection doesn't
require a login.)

Cheers,
David.

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#232534 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

David Wright composed on 2021-03-07 20:01 (UTC-0600):

> On Sun 07 Mar 2021 at 20:39:12 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:

>> At retail level, modem-routers seem to be rather uncommon. OTOH, owning your own
>> modem and router can produce an ISP savings that will pay for a modem and/or
>> router in as little as 6-12 months by buying quality "refurbs". I have multiples
>> of both, so that an ISP has little opportunity to fault my hardware when I have a
>> service complaint.

> I've never has two working modems (cable) on site at the same time.
> How do ISPs react to having two different MAC-addressed devices
> connecting from the same customer? (My Internet connection doesn't
> require a login.)
										
Having != connected. The extras are spares. :)
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#232570 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On Sun 07 Mar 2021 at 21:37:37 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2021-03-07 20:01 (UTC-0600):
> > On Sun 07 Mar 2021 at 20:39:12 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> At retail level, modem-routers seem to be rather uncommon. OTOH, owning your own
> >> modem and router can produce an ISP savings that will pay for a modem and/or
> >> router in as little as 6-12 months by buying quality "refurbs". I have multiples
> >> of both, so that an ISP has little opportunity to fault my hardware when I have a
> >> service complaint.
> 
> > I've never has two working modems (cable) on site at the same time.
> > How do ISPs react to having two different MAC-addressed devices
> > connecting from the same customer? (My Internet connection doesn't
> > require a login.)
> 
> Having != connected. The extras are spares. :)

I realise that, but if your service were to become unsatisfactory,
then before you complained, you'd want to check that it's not your
modem at fault. Would you expect your spare modem to work, because it
has a different MAC from what's expected by the ISP's end of the line.

(Similarly, if your modem were to burn out, which is what happened
to mine after seven years.)

Cheers,
David.

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#232571 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

David Wright composed on 2021-03-08 22:37 (UTC-0600):

> On Sun 07 Mar 2021 at 21:37:37 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:

>> Having != connected. The extras are spares. :)

> I realise that, but if your service were to become unsatisfactory,
> then before you complained, you'd want to check that it's not your
> modem at fault. Would you expect your spare modem to work, because it
> has a different MAC from what's expected by the ISP's end of the line.

> (Similarly, if your modem were to burn out, which is what happened
> to mine after seven years.)

Whenever I get a mind to, I call my ISP, tell them I'm changing modems, and what
the new MAC is. It gives me some confidence it's still useful. If there's a
problem they or I think a modem switch might shed light on, I do the same.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#232585

On Tuesday, March 09, 2021 12:12:40 AM Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2021-03-08 22:37 (UTC-0600):
> > I realise that, but if your service were to become unsatisfactory,
> > then before you complained, you'd want to check that it's not your
> > modem at fault. Would you expect your spare modem to work, because it
> > has a different MAC from what's expected by the ISP's end of the line.

> Whenever I get a mind to, I call my ISP, tell them I'm changing modems, and
> what the new MAC is. It gives me some confidence it's still useful. If
> there's a problem they or I think a modem switch might shed light on, I do
> the same.

I have DSL service, and a spare modem that I've occasionally put in service 
(for testing the "main" modem) and have not had to notify the ISP.  (They were 
both provided by the ISP (Earthlink).)

I don't know if cable modems would work the same -- I don't know if the ISP 
sees the MAC address on a DSL line.

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#232587 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On Tue, 9 Mar 2021 08:12:47 -0500
rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 09, 2021 12:12:40 AM Felix Miata wrote:
> > David Wright composed on 2021-03-08 22:37 (UTC-0600):  
> > > I realise that, but if your service were to become unsatisfactory,
> > > then before you complained, you'd want to check that it's not your
> > > modem at fault. Would you expect your spare modem to work,
> > > because it has a different MAC from what's expected by the ISP's
> > > end of the line.  
> 
> > Whenever I get a mind to, I call my ISP, tell them I'm changing
> > modems, and what the new MAC is. It gives me some confidence it's
> > still useful. If there's a problem they or I think a modem switch
> > might shed light on, I do the same.  
> 
> I have DSL service, and a spare modem that I've occasionally put in
> service (for testing the "main" modem) and have not had to notify the
> ISP.  (They were both provided by the ISP (Earthlink).)
> 
> I don't know if cable modems would work the same -- I don't know if
> the ISP sees the MAC address on a DSL line.
> 

I used to change routers without telling anyone, but that was years ago.

As an anecdote, I recall a BT service/router which literally would not
work if it detected another NAT on the LAN. It was in a client's
network, and I had to reconfigure things to work without the Debian
server acting as a firewall. If it had been my network, the wretched
thing would have gone back instantly, my network runs through two NATs
and that isn't negotiable.

-- 
Joe

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#232661 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Ma, 09 mar 21, 13:35:18, Joe wrote:
> 
> As an anecdote, I recall a BT service/router which literally would not
> work if it detected another NAT on the LAN. It was in a client's
> network, and I had to reconfigure things to work without the Debian
> server acting as a firewall. If it had been my network, the wretched
> thing would have gone back instantly, my network runs through two NATs
> and that isn't negotiable.

What is the benefit of having your network behind two NATs?

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#232666 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 11:54:49 +0200
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Ma, 09 mar 21, 13:35:18, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > As an anecdote, I recall a BT service/router which literally would
> > not work if it detected another NAT on the LAN. It was in a client's
> > network, and I had to reconfigure things to work without the Debian
> > server acting as a firewall. If it had been my network, the wretched
> > thing would have gone back instantly, my network runs through two
> > NATs and that isn't negotiable.  
> 
> What is the benefit of having your network behind two NATs?
> 

Because I can't do much with a router, and I want reasonable firewall
and logging control, and also a 'proper' DMZ in which to incarcerate
visitors who want to use the Net. NAT on the firewall adds a small
extra layer of security in case I make a mistake with the firewall
code, and in the past I have had subtle problems with bridging. I've
never had problems with two NATs (I've stayed away from IPSec, but PPTP
will work through two NATs at each end).

And no, I don't want to get involved with reflashing routers and then
trying to solve problems with my ISP.

-- 
Joe

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#232593

On Tuesday 09 March 2021 08:12:47 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 09, 2021 12:12:40 AM Felix Miata wrote:
> > David Wright composed on 2021-03-08 22:37 (UTC-0600):
> > > I realise that, but if your service were to become unsatisfactory,
> > > then before you complained, you'd want to check that it's not your
> > > modem at fault. Would you expect your spare modem to work, because
> > > it has a different MAC from what's expected by the ISP's end of
> > > the line.
> >
> > Whenever I get a mind to, I call my ISP, tell them I'm changing
> > modems, and what the new MAC is. It gives me some confidence it's
> > still useful. If there's a problem they or I think a modem switch
> > might shed light on, I do the same.
>
> I have DSL service, and a spare modem that I've occasionally put in
> service (for testing the "main" modem) and have not had to notify the
> ISP.  (They were both provided by the ISP (Earthlink).)
>
> I don't know if cable modems would work the same -- I don't know if
> the ISP sees the MAC address on a DSL line.

Generally they do, I too have 2 routers, and own them both, but one has 
the others MAC cloned into it, so my supposedly volatile ipv4 address 
has been fixed for over a decade, making namecheap registration of the 
link in the sig a no-brain-er.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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