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on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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  on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 06:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 06:10 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 07:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-07 11:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 17:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-07 19:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? John Boxall <jboxall47@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:50 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-07 23:50 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 00:10 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 14:30 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 09:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 10:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-07 19:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-07 20:00 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 11:00 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-09 16:00 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 17:00 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-09 18:50 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 11:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:20 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-07 18:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 14:20 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 19:00 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 01:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 03:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 03:40 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 05:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-09 06:20 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-09 14:20 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-09 14:40 +0100
                              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 11:00 +0100
                                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-10 12:30 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-09 18:10 +0100
                              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 22:20 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-09 16:10 +0100
                          Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 22:00 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 22:20 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of … IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 00:10 +0100
                            Re: Modem MACs and how ISPs view them, was Re: on the verge of   … rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-10 00:20 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:50 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:00 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:10 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-03-08 18:30 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 02:00 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 11:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2021-03-08 09:20 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 14:00 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 01:50 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 02:30 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-08 04:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 22:20 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 23:00 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 00:20 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-10 01:00 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 01:30 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-10 03:30 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2021-03-10 06:20 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 20:40 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 23:10 +0100
    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2021-03-07 20:10 +0100
      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-07 20:50 +0100
        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 22:00 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-07 22:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-07 22:30 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 22:50 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-07 22:50 +0100
          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:10 +0100
            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 01:20 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100
                Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 03:00 +0100
                  Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 03:40 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-08 05:00 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-08 14:40 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-03-08 15:10 +0100
                            power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-08 17:20 +0100
                              Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-08 18:10 +0100
                                Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-09 02:10 +0100
                              Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 22:40 +0100
                                Re: power limiting via system controls (was: on the verge of ... songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-09 02:20 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 23:40 +0100
                        Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-03-08 19:40 +0100
                          Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 21:20 +0100
                            Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-03-09 09:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
                      Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,          recommendations? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-08 13:10 +0100
                    Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-08 11:40 +0100
              Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware,  recommendations? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-08 01:40 +0100

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#232470 — on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
figure out what to do.

When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
However, i don't want to get involved with that again.

I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.

I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
external usb drive.  Does that make sense?

Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb 3.0?
I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.

In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
purposes.

And i think i'd like to stick with debian, but i would consider any free
OS.  (So if i bought a Dell, i would add a disk drive or two, and boot off
the debian disk, probably removing the windows disk.)

I'd appreciate any pointers or recommendations.

dan

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#232471

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On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
> figure out what to do.
>
> When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
> dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
> However, i don't want to get involved with that again.
>
> I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.
>
> I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
> disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
> external usb drive.  Does that make sense?
>
> Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb
> 3.0?  I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.
>
> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
> purposes.
>
> And i think i'd like to stick with debian, but i would consider any free
> OS.  (So if i bought a Dell, i would add a disk drive or two, and boot off
> the debian disk, probably removing the windows disk.)
>
> I'd appreciate any pointers or recommendations.
>

And i forgot to add that i would like to be able to easily run qemu or
other virtual machines.  How would that affect the choice of processor,
amount of memory, and disks?

TIA!

dan

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#232474

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On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 12:03 AM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
>> figure out what to do.
>>
>> When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
>> dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
>> However, i don't want to get involved with that again.
>>
>
I was dragged, "kicking and screaming" to UEFI booting.  But, now that I'm
here, it's "sort of" grown on me.

What helped me, a lot, is a package called Refind.  It's available on
Debian, through normal Apt-Get, though it's good to, carefully read the
Documentation before Installing.

I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
>> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
>> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.
>>
>> I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
>> disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
>> external usb drive.  Does that make sense?
>>
>
Yes it does.   As I said, I had a lot of trouble with UEFI at the beginning
and, so had a workaround of setting it up to (by default) boot from an
external USB Stick, but boot Linux Partitions on the main Hard Drive.

Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb 3.0?
>> I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.
>>
>> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
>> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
>> purposes.
>>
>> And i think i'd like to stick with debian, but i would consider any free
>> OS.  (So if i bought a Dell, i would add a disk drive or two, and boot off
>> the debian disk, probably removing the windows disk.)
>>
>
I have a mix on my HP Pavilion Desktop, with the two I boot most being
Debian Bullseye and Mint 20.

I'd appreciate any pointers or recommendations.
>>
>
> And i forgot to add that i would like to be able to easily run qemu or
> other virtual machines.  How would that affect the choice of processor,
> amount of memory, and disks?
>

That's one reason I am running Bullseye:  I set up qemu-kvm on Mint 20, put
a guest in, and promptly ran low on space.  So I wanted to export it to
Debian, but found that the version of qemu was higher than the one on
Buster (which wouldn't allow the Import).  So I'm on Bullseye.  Research
the differences between the versions of qemu and you might want Bullseye
also.

TIA!
>
> dan
>

Happy to help.

Kenneth Parker

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#232478 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 03/07/2021 12:48 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
>[snip]
> I was dragged, "kicking and screaming" to UEFI booting.  But, now that 
> I'm here, it's "sort of" grown on me.
> 
> What helped me, a lot, is a package called Refind.  It's available on 
> Debian, through normal Apt-Get, though it's good to, carefully read the 
> Documentation before Installing.
> 

I quickly browsed http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/, its homepage, which 
contains many references. Any other recommended reading on UEFI?

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#232552

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On Sun, Mar 7, 2021, 5:06 AM Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:

> On 03/07/2021 12:48 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> >[snip]
> > I was dragged, "kicking and screaming" to UEFI booting.  But, now that
> > I'm here, it's "sort of" grown on me.
> >
> > What helped me, a lot, is a package called Refind.  It's available on
> > Debian, through normal Apt-Get, though it's good to, carefully read the
> > Documentation before Installing.
> >
>
> I quickly browsed http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/, its homepage, which
> contains many references. Any other recommended reading on UEFI?
>

If you include the "reading list" at the bottom of the web page, I have not
found anything better.  (And this is one of the few occasions, where I
responded to the request for financial donations).

Kenneth Parker

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#232494 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Kenneth Parker wrote:
...
> I was dragged, "kicking and screaming" to UEFI booting.  But, now that I'm
> here, it's "sort of" grown on me.
>
> What helped me, a lot, is a package called Refind.  It's available on
> Debian, through normal Apt-Get, though it's good to, carefully read the
> Documentation before Installing.

  some motherboards have issues.  i just replaced a motherboard
and had it boot with grub instead of refind.  i expected refind.
i reinstalled refind hoping that would take care of it, nope.  i'm
not about to remove grub as i'm not sure i want to mess things up
that ways.  i should update my netinst image and make sure it 
boots from the USB stick before i try anything like that.

  apparently Gigabyte has/had some strange ideas about UEFI.
sadly i didn't know this and couldn't shop other than through
the phone line talking to someone so i had to rely upon them
selecting a motherboard for me.  don't really want to sent it
back either.

  now that i'm back on-line i see there is some words on the
refind site about this type of problem, but i'm not confident
enough with the suggestions to try them and i don't really have
the time either so i may not get back to this until next winter.

  the previous board i had by Asrock didn't have any problems
at all booting in either legacy or UEFI and didn't have troubles
with USB devices either.  i'm not so sure about this board.


  songbird

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#232496 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 2021-03-07 1:06 p.m., songbird wrote:
> 
>    apparently Gigabyte has/had some strange ideas about UEFI.
> sadly i didn't know this and couldn't shop other than through
> the phone line talking to someone so i had to rely upon them
> selecting a motherboard for me.  don't really want to sent it
> back either.
> 

I have two Gigabyte m/b's I've been using for some time and only 
recently got things, sort of, figured out. Here are a few suggestions 
and I hope they work for your m/b:

- disablbe IOMMU support (more on this in a moment)
- specify "UEFI and Legacy" for "Boot Mode Selection"
- specify "Legacy first" for "Storage Boot Option Control"
- specify "Legacy OPROM" for "Other PCI Device ROM Priority"
	 - though this will depend on your installed hardware
- I have switched "SATA mode selection" to "AHCI" instead of "IDE"
	- your choice

- If you decide to _not_ use EFI, __ALWAYS_ go into the boot menu to 
select the BIOS mode boot for the USB stick you are using.

- Once in the Debian installer boot menu:
	- in BIOS mode press the "TAB" key (I __SO__ wish I had found
	  out about this months ago)
		- add the following to the "linux" command line:
			iommu=soft
		- if you are going to create a raid array (mine is 	
		  raid5) also add this to the "linux" line:
			rootdelay=10
		- press the <ENTER> key
	- if you choose EFI boot mode, edit the install command line as
		above

Until I started using the above I couldn't get any of the USB ports to 
function and the raid array to come up properly.

YMMV.

-- 
Regards,

John Boxall

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#232508 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

songbird composed on 2021-03-07 13:06 (UTC-0500):

>   apparently Gigabyte has/had some strange ideas about UEFI.
										
No such here. Gigabyte made the first motherboard I ever acquired with UEFI that I
used with UEFI, so it's where I learned how UEFI works. For multibooting I highly
recommend UEFI if available. Once understood, UEFI is easy, and much less trouble
from one installation usurping boot control from another. The only downside is the
system won't be free of anachronistic M$ filesystem formatting.

Another recommendation: If using IGP, and you anticipate ever wanting to use more
than one display at a time, be sure the motherboard provides enough ports. I've
yet to see one with any one type duplicated, but it need not be an issue if at
least one is a DisplayPort. Inexpensive DisplayPort to HDMI converters are
available, but not so for HDMI to DisplayPort. My oldest only has three video
ports, lacking DisplayPort, but each of the other four have four: DisplayPort,
HDMI, DVI and VGA. My two newest are Intel IGP supporting up to three displays at
once. Two older AMD support only two at once.

Regarding bays: 2.5" SSDs don't really need bays in a desktop or floor standing
case that never gets moved except for repairs, upgrades or cleaning. They are very
lightweight, held in place well enough by the cables connected to them to stick
anywhere there is some space.

Don't settle for a motherboard that lacks any M.2 ports that support NVME 2280
form factor storage. Prefer more than one on any board bigger than ITX. I've see
reports of <3 second cold boot to multi-user times using NVME. Best I've seen here
is <6 seconds with a cheap 120GB NVME and a two core 3.0GHz Pentium G3220 CPU.

All my cases are more than 10 years old. Among my collection my favorites are 6
great 17" tall 21+ year old Antec towers that were given to me, several AOpen
16.5" towers equally old, and an Antec 21" of unknown age also given to me.

Be wary of any case made of aluminum where screws are needed. The cheap stamped
screws provided with them will readily strip the threads if great care is not
used. You don't want barely visible metal shards falling in the wrong spot on a
motherboard or expansion card.

Also be very wary of any power supply included with a case. IME, these lightweight
and cheaply made power supplies invariably provide the worst reliability of any
type of electronic product I've ever encountered. The best power supplies are
heavy. If its weight isn't provided in its specs, look elsewhere, for as much
above 3lbs as you can find, preferably more than 4lbs, and if the cabling is much
more than minimal, more than 5lbs. If not using a power hungry two-slot multi-fan
powered-directly-by-power supply graphics card, lots of 3.5" drives, or multiple
discrete CPUs, odds are anything more than a 400W power supply is overkill.
Significant excess capacity wastes power needlessly.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#232509

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On 2021-03-07 at 17:48, Felix Miata wrote:

> Don't settle for a motherboard that lacks any M.2 ports that support
> NVME 2280 form factor storage. Prefer more than one on any board
> bigger than ITX. I've see reports of <3 second cold boot to
> multi-user times using NVME. Best I've seen here is <6 seconds with a
> cheap 120GB NVME and a two core 3.0GHz Pentium G3220 CPU.

At that point I'd expect the bottleneck is elsewhere in the system,
rather than with the storage device itself. M.2 SSDs can get *stupidly*
fast.

> Also be very wary of any power supply included with a case. IME,
> these lightweight and cheaply made power supplies invariably provide
> the worst reliability of any type of electronic product I've ever
> encountered. The best power supplies are heavy. If its weight isn't
> provided in its specs, look elsewhere, for as much above 3lbs as you
> can find, preferably more than 4lbs, and if the cabling is much more
> than minimal, more than 5lbs. If not using a power hungry two-slot
> multi-fan powered-directly-by-power supply graphics card, lots of
> 3.5" drives, or multiple discrete CPUs, odds are anything more than a
> 400W power supply is overkill. Significant excess capacity wastes
> power needlessly.

Thanks for the advice.

Any power-related advice for SSDs?

In the system I'm planning to build, I'm expecting to have something
along the lines of two M.2 SSDs (RAID-1), presumably in the NVMe 2280
form factor you specify, and eight or more SATA SSDs in a 2.5" form
factor (RAID-6), along with a discrete GPU, probably a discrete sound
card, a collection of fans, and of course whatever the motherboard and
case may need (not excluding USB ports and the devices attached to
them).

I'm not at all sure what to target in terms of PSU capacity for
something like that. I want modularity, reliability, and a certain
amount of extra headroom in case I want to either expand later or just
replace some parts with others that are more power-hungry, but what
wattage level is appropriate is really hard to judge; most of the PSU
calculators (etc.) out there, that I recall finding, seem to assume no
more than two hard drives.

In my current system (two SATA SSDs, four SATA HDDs, plus an extra port
for a cold spare drive in case one of the RAID arrays develops a
problem), the storage subsystem is probably the single largest part of
the power consumption except when the GPU is running high, but I don't
know of a practical way to calculate that with the tools I have
available.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#232527 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

The Wanderer composed on 2021-03-07 18:00 (UTC-0500):

> On 2021-03-07 at 17:48, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Don't settle for a motherboard that lacks any M.2 ports that support
>> NVME 2280 form factor storage. Prefer more than one on any board
>> bigger than ITX. I've see reports of <3 second cold boot to
>> multi-user times using NVME. Best I've seen here is <6 seconds with a
>> cheap 120GB NVME and a two core 3.0GHz Pentium G3220 CPU.

> At that point I'd expect the bottleneck is elsewhere in the system,
> rather than with the storage device itself. M.2 SSDs can get *stupidly*
> fast.
										
Cheap = not so fast, e.g. barely four digit speeds or even down to only 700MB/s. I
haven't spent any meaningful time trying to minimize startup bloat either.

>> Also be very wary of any power supply included with a case. IME,
>> these lightweight and cheaply made power supplies invariably provide
>> the worst reliability of any type of electronic product I've ever
>> encountered. The best power supplies are heavy. If its weight isn't
>> provided in its specs, look elsewhere, for as much above 3lbs as you
>> can find, preferably more than 4lbs, and if the cabling is much more
>> than minimal, more than 5lbs. If not using a power hungry two-slot
>> multi-fan powered-directly-by-power supply graphics card, lots of
>> 3.5" drives, or multiple discrete CPUs, odds are anything more than a
>> 400W power supply is overkill. Significant excess capacity wastes
>> power needlessly.

> Thanks for the advice.

> Any power-related advice for SSDs?										
Nothing much. HDDs run on 12V, while 2.5" SSDs run on 5V. NVME is less clear to me
so far. My last NVME 1.3 purchase reported using 3.3V, but I've seen the web
suggest NVME can or does use both 3.3V and 12V. So, make sure to read the PS label
to make sure the 3.3V & 5V supplies are suited to needs, while 12V not so much.
Overall maximum advertised power can be misleading. It's possible to need more
total advertised power simply to have enough watts at 3.3V & 5V.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#232547 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

The Wanderer wrote: 
> Any power-related advice for SSDs?
> 
> In the system I'm planning to build, I'm expecting to have something
> along the lines of two M.2 SSDs (RAID-1), presumably in the NVMe 2280
> form factor you specify, and eight or more SATA SSDs in a 2.5" form
> factor (RAID-6), along with a discrete GPU, probably a discrete sound
> card, a collection of fans, and of course whatever the motherboard and
> case may need (not excluding USB ports and the devices attached to
> them).

You can look up maximum power draw for every major component.

For example:

An AMD Ryzen CPU draws between 65W - for a low-end desktop
processor like the 3400G - and 105W - for the top end of desktop
CPUs.

A low-end external GPU can draw 40W, and a high-end 300W.

The motherboard itself will rarely draw 30W.

The most efficient SSDs consume 2W apiece at max load, and the
least efficient can use 5W apiece.

So: a desktop system might have:
105W    high-end CPU
140W    mid-range GPU
 20W    motherboard
 40W    10 not-so-efficient SSDs
----
305W

suggests that you want to buy a 350-500W power supply from a
reputable manufacturer -- I especially like Seasonic, Antec and
EVGA, but there are lots of high-quality brands.

If you have a 65W CPU, a 40W GPU, and 1 SSD and 1 spinning disk
(14W max), a 185-250W power supply is a good idea.

Below 185W, there are DC-DC power supplies for low-power systems
that use external AC-DC bricks like laptops (frequently exactly
the same as higher-end laptops) which are efficient, cool and
quiet.

-dsr-

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#232475 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 3/6/21 9:02 PM, Dan Hitt wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I think that i will need to get new desktop hardware, so i'm trying to
>> figure out what to do.
>>
>> When i got my last hardware, one challenge was UEFI booting, iirc.  After
>> dealing with it, i sort of lost track of what was happening in that arena.
>> However, i don't want to get involved with that again.

UEFI and Secure Boot were hard in the past, but not so much any more. 
The Debian x86 installer detects if you have booted the computer in BIOS 
or UEFI mode, and works accordingly.


That said, I have several older computers.  I put drive racks in my 
desktops and servers, put each OS on its own 2.5" SATA SSD, and use 
BIOS/ MBR.  This allows me to mix and match as needed.


>> I'm sort of thinking about getting a Dell Inspiron but maybe i should buy
>> from a linux vendor instead, such as 76?  Presumably at least in that case
>> at least i wouldn't have to worry about the bios.

I tend to buy/ build used Dell and Intel stuff, because it is readily 
available and affordable.


System 76 has their own Linux distribution that they have validated on 
their hardware.  This should provide for pleasant OOTB and ownership 
experiences.


>> I certainly would want to get something which supported 2 or 3 internal
>> disks, but i would also like to get something that could be booted from an
>> external usb drive.  Does that make sense?


I have seen desktops go from 5.25" HDD's to 3.5" HDD's to 2.5" SSD's to 
M.2 SSD/NVMe's.  The available drive bays and interfaces has changed 
accordingly.  You might want to look at workstations, servers, NAS, or 
homebrew chassis if you really need three 3.5" HDD's (internal and/or 
rack mount).


Most x86 computers made in the past 20 years can boot from USB.  I 
maintain a Debian installation on a USB 3.0 flash drive for maintenance 
purposes.  I ran a Samba server this way for a few years.  Now, used 
2.5" SSD's are cheap enough to put in every machine.  If and when I do 
Rasperry Pi, etc., I will probably go with a high-endurance SD card.


>> Would it make sense to look for something where all usb ports are usb
>> 3.0?  I've never used usb 3.0 at home, so i'm kind of unclued.

Again, it depends upon the vintage of the computer and your external I/O 
needs.  eSATA, Firewire, and Thunderbolt are other options.


>> In a way, i'd like to have something with 2 ethernet ports on the
>> motherboard, although i've found that usb-to-ethernet is adequate for my
>> purposes.

Dual Ethernet is uncommon on desktop boards/ chassis.  You can find them 
on workstations, servers, NAS chassis, and router chassis.


HDD's, and espcially SSD's, can now saturate Gigabit.  I am starting to 
consider upgrading my SOHO LAN to 10 Gb copper.  This means PCIe x4 
NIC's and a matching switch.


>> And i think i'd like to stick with debian, but i would consider any free
>> OS.  (So if i bought a Dell, i would add a disk drive or two, and boot off
>> the debian disk, probably removing the windows disk.)
>>
>> I'd appreciate any pointers or recommendations.
>>
> 
> And i forgot to add that i would like to be able to easily run qemu or
> other virtual machines.  How would that affect the choice of processor,
> amount of memory, and disks?

Get a processor with extensions that support virtualization.  For Intel, 
that means VT-d, VT-x, etc.. A Core i5 or better should suffice for 
desktop virtualization.  For a virtualization server, you want a Xeon.


Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
stuff has the former, workstation and server stuff done right has the 
latter.  STFW "memory error", "bit rot" and related.  I prefer computers 
with ECC memory.


David

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#232476 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

On 3/7/21 12:48 AM, David Christensen wrote:
> The Debian x86 installer detects if you have booted the computer in BIOS 
> or UEFI mode, and works accordingly.

"Debian amd64 installer" is more accurate.


David

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#232493 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

David Christensen wrote:
...
> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
> stuff has the former, workstation and server stuff done right has the 
> latter.  STFW "memory error", "bit rot" and related.  I prefer computers 
> with ECC memory.

  it's a really poor choice that that did not become standard
just because manufacturers wanted to save a few $.


  songbird

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#232497

>> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
>> stuff has the former, workstation and server stuff done right has the 
>> latter.  STFW "memory error", "bit rot" and related.  I prefer computers 
>> with ECC memory.
>   it's a really poor choice that that did not become standard
> just because manufacturers wanted to save a few $.

IIUC the reason is not "to save a few bucks" but to segment the market
such that ECC products can be sold at much higher prices.


        Stefan

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#232575 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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On Du, 07 mar 21, 13:56:03, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
> >> stuff has the former, workstation and server stuff done right has the 
> >> latter.  STFW "memory error", "bit rot" and related.  I prefer computers 
> >> with ECC memory.
> >   it's a really poor choice that that did not become standard
> > just because manufacturers wanted to save a few $.
> 
> IIUC the reason is not "to save a few bucks" but to segment the market
> such that ECC products can be sold at much higher prices.

It seems AMD Ryzen CPUs do support ECC, but it's not validated (which is 
why it won't be mentioned in the official specs).

The motherboard needs support for it as well, e.g. I'm eying the ASRock 
B550M Steel Legend for a fan-less build (unfortunately the Ryzen 3 
4300GE (35W TDP) is nowhere to be found :( )

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#232589 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Andrei POPESCU wrote: 
> On Du, 07 mar 21, 13:56:03, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > >> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
> 
> The motherboard needs support for it as well, e.g. I'm eying the ASRock 
> B550M Steel Legend for a fan-less build (unfortunately the Ryzen 3 
> 4300GE (35W TDP) is nowhere to be found :( )

None of the Renoir parts are being sold on the general market;
they are all going directly to system integrators (HP, Dell...)

Unfortunately, those system integrators like to sell those parts
on mediocre motherboards and with second-class components
attached.

-dsr-

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#232592 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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On Ma, 09 mar 21, 09:54:22, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Andrei POPESCU wrote: 
> > On Du, 07 mar 21, 13:56:03, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > > >> Another important consideration is memory -- non-ECC vs. ECC.  Desktop 
> > 
> > The motherboard needs support for it as well, e.g. I'm eying the ASRock 
> > B550M Steel Legend for a fan-less build (unfortunately the Ryzen 3 
> > 4300GE (35W TDP) is nowhere to be found :( )
> 
> None of the Renoir parts are being sold on the general market;
> they are all going directly to system integrators (HP, Dell...)

There's something curious about that, especially considering that the 
PRO version (4350GE) is *not* OEM only!?

It's almost like they confused the PRO with the retail version.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind getting the 4350GE instead ;)

(unless it's too expensive, of course)

> Unfortunately, those system integrators like to sell those parts
> on mediocre motherboards and with second-class components
> attached.

There might be a chance to get it as a bundle from some "creative" 
retailers, which would be fine as well if paired with my choice of 
motherboard and as far as I understand there are retailers that do sell 
OEM parts.

Wouldn't be my first "bag (and manual) only" computer part ;)

(used to be an "integrator" myself for friends and family)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#232595 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

Andrei POPESCU wrote: 
> On Ma, 09 mar 21, 09:54:22, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Andrei POPESCU wrote: 
 
> There's something curious about that, especially considering that the 
> PRO version (4350GE) is *not* OEM only!?

I don't think that's the case.

> It's almost like they confused the PRO with the retail version.
> 
> Anyway, I wouldn't mind getting the 4350GE instead ;)
> 
> (unless it's too expensive, of course)

There are some 4xxx series processors available, but all of them
are grey-market stripped from industrial flat-packs, and come
with a gigantic price tag as well.

> There might be a chance to get it as a bundle from some "creative" 
> retailers, which would be fine as well if paired with my choice of 
> motherboard and as far as I understand there are retailers that do sell 
> OEM parts.

Right now, it appears to be a choice between HP and Dell unless
you want one of the laptop-class APUs (some of which are quite
nice) in which case Asus and Acer have some systems.

I'm currently at that point where my home desktop is still
perfectly capable, but notably slower than anything else in the
house. I'd really like to replace it with a microATX 4700G --
it's just that for the price I want to pay, HP wants to sell me
a crappy desktop with sub-par motherboard and NVMe, and very
likely a whiny power supply.

Time and patience should fix my problem.

-dsr-

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#232660 — Re: on the verge of shopping for new desktop hardware, recommendations?

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On Ma, 09 mar 21, 12:43:51, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> Right now, it appears to be a choice between HP and Dell unless
> you want one of the laptop-class APUs (some of which are quite
> nice) in which case Asus and Acer have some systems.

I'm looking into building my own custom system.

A laptop-class APU would be nice, though getting any kind of motherboard 
for it (not to mention all the extension options I want) is unrealistic.
 
> I'm currently at that point where my home desktop is still
> perfectly capable, but notably slower than anything else in the
> house. I'd really like to replace it with a microATX 4700G --
> it's just that for the price I want to pay, HP wants to sell me
> a crappy desktop with sub-par motherboard and NVMe, and very
> likely a whiny power supply.
> 
> Time and patience should fix my problem.

Hopefully mine as well.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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