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Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers [Debian 10 stable]

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  Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers  [Debian 10 stable] uekilaw@libero.it - 2021-01-20 11:20 +0100
    Re: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers          [Debian 10 stable] Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-01-20 16:00 +0100
      Re: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers  [Debian 10 stable] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-01-21 00:00 +0100
    Re: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers  [Debian 10 stable] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-01-20 18:10 +0100
    Re: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers  [Debian 10 stable] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-01-20 20:40 +0100
      Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau  (was: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card prop...) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-20 22:50 +0100
        Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2021-01-20 23:20 +0100
          Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-21 01:40 +0100
            Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-01-21 01:50 +0100
              Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-21 03:20 +0100
                [OT] Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not  Nouveau David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-01-21 07:00 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not  Nouveau Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-21 07:20 +0100
                Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-01-21 12:40 +0100
                  Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-01-21 16:20 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not  Nouveau David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-01-22 01:30 +0100
                  Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-21 19:40 +0100
                    Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-01-21 19:50 +0100
                  Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-24 04:40 +0100

#230878 — Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers [Debian 10 stable]

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Hi,

I'm relatively new to Linux (~1 year distro-hopping dual-booting with win10) and a week ago I decided to install Debian 10 stable over Manjaro on my laptop. After the first (unsuccessful) attempt on installing a non-free firmware-included unofficial iso (live), I managed to install the official live iso (kde flavour).
Then I've followed the Debian wiki in order to install proprietary drivers.
First my wireless network (Broadcom BCM43142), successfully installed, then I tried with my video card (Nvidia GeForce GTX 850M) and while failing in the first and second methods suggested in the wiki, it also gave me instability for the previously installed wifi drivers.

Due to the several passages and fixes I've tried, I couldn't resume them all in the same post/email, so I would like to ask if this is the right format to ask for help or maybe an IRC contact would be more efficient.

Thank you for being part of this wonderful project,

M B

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#230887 — Re: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card proprietary drivers [Debian 10 stable]

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uekilaw@libero.it writes:

> Hi,
> I'm relatively new to Linux (~1 year distro-hopping dual-booting with win10)  
> and a week ago I decided to install Debian 10 stable over Manjaro on my  
> laptop. After the first (unsuccessful) attempt on installing a non-free  
> firmware-included unofficial iso (live), I managed to install the official  
> live iso (kde flavour).
> Then I've followed the Debian wiki in order to install proprietary drivers.
> First my wireless network (Broadcom BCM43142), successfully installed, then I  
> tried with my video card (Nvidia GeForce GTX 850M) and while failing in the  
> first and second methods suggested in the wiki, it also gave me instability  
> for the previously installed wifi drivers.
>
> Due to the several passages and fixes I've tried, I couldn't resume them all  
> in the same post/email, so I would like to ask if this is the right format to  
> ask for help or maybe an IRC contact would be more efficient.

Hello and Welcome,

IRC vs. Mailing List is sure to be a heated discusison. I'd argue it boils  
down to taste. Of course, IRC may solve your problem faster, but e-mail OTOH  
can be archived and kept for further reference more easily. In case you  
prefer IRC, Debian seems to offer that, too:

 * https://wiki.debian.org/IRC
 * https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc

Wrt. the original problem, I think there are two routes to approach this:

 * Given that your installation is new and that you have been distro-hopping
   it might be the quickest to take note of the steps to install the
   WiFi drivers and then do a full clean reinstall of Debian?

 * Otherwise, a good start would be to find out what (major) steps you tried
   to get your GPU working. I recall having instability with Nvidia drivers
   mostly when trying to install the official NVidia binaries as downloaded
   from NVidia's website. My experience with the debian non-free provided
   drivers has been OK, though. Thus my first question to initiate solving
   the problem would be: Which installation method of proprietary drivers did
   you chose?

   If it was the file downloaded from NVidia, the first step would be to
   invoke its uninstallation routine, Afterwards, package
   `nvidia-installer-cleanup` may remove the remainder of a (failed)
   (un)installation attempt.

   Another question to approach the fix: Did it work on Manjaro? If yes,
   what drivers and kernel versions were that? I am asking because sometimes,
   hardware can be made to work by using a "newer" OS which in the case of
   Debian would be testing or unstable.

NVidia GPU on laptop can be difficult. In fact, I never managed to get mine  
working (on laptops newer than 2006 that is, old ones used to work). This  
wiki page might be relevant for you, too:

https://wiki.debian.org/NVIDIA%20Optimus

> Thank you for being part of this wonderful project,
> M B

I am just a user :)

Linux-Fan
öö

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#230899

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:58:41 +0100
Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> wrote:

...

> NVidia GPU on laptop can be difficult. In fact, I never managed to get mine  
> working (on laptops newer than 2006 that is, old ones used to work). This  
> wiki page might be relevant for you, too:
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/NVIDIA%20Optimus

FWIW, I've gotten the Quadro K620M on my Lenovo W550s to work with a fair
amount of fiddling using various methods (Optimus, nvidia-xrun), but
the performance was always disappointing and (for me) just not worth
it, so I don't bother.

Celejar

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#230892

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 10:46:51AM +0100, uekilaw@libero.it wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm relatively new to Linux (~1 year distro-hopping dual-booting with win10) and a week ago I decided to install Debian 10 stable over Manjaro on my laptop. After the first (unsuccessful) attempt on installing a non-free firmware-included unofficial iso (live), I managed to install the official live iso (kde flavour).
> Then I've followed the Debian wiki in order to install proprietary drivers.
> First my wireless network (Broadcom BCM43142), successfully installed, then I tried with my video card (Nvidia GeForce GTX 850M) and while failing in the first and second methods suggested in the wiki, it also gave me instability for the previously installed wifi drivers.
> 
> Due to the several passages and fixes I've tried, I couldn't resume them all in the same post/email, so I would like to ask if this is the right format to ask for help or maybe an IRC contact would be more efficient.
> 
> Thank you for being part of this wonderful project,
> 
> M B

Would you be prepared to re-install Debian to sort out the problems?

This is complicated by the facts: 
1. It's a Broadcom wifi card 
2. You may not want to configure your desktop immediately
3. Without configuring a desktop, you don't have easy graphical tools to set
up the network.

Do you have a wired interface available to you - Ethernet?

If so, if you can use that to install with, that would make life significantly 
easier. The steps below assume using wired to do the initial install and then
installing wifi later.

a.) Install using expert mode using the text installer.

This will ask you more detailed questions and allow you slightly more 
flexibility.

b.) Do not install a desktop - unselect the Debian desktop option when offered
tasks to install. This will stop Nouveau being installed.

c.) Reboot

d.) If you want to use the nvidia proprietary drivers install them now

e.) Then use tasksel to install the desktop you want: this will work on top of
the NVidia drivers

f.) Install wifi firmware and set up wifi network 

g.) Reboot and enjoy
 
If you've _only_ got wifi interface

i) Use the firmware .iso initially because that should have the Broadcom
firmware

ii) Drop out to a shell to install network-manager and wpasupplicant before exiting the install.

then follow the steps above. 

All best,

Andy C.

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#230893

On 2021-01-20 01:46, uekilaw@libero.it wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm relatively new to Linux (~1 year distro-hopping dual-booting with win10) and a week ago I decided to install Debian 10 stable over Manjaro on my laptop. After the first (unsuccessful) attempt on installing a non-free firmware-included unofficial iso (live), I managed to install the official live iso (kde flavour).
> Then I've followed the Debian wiki in order to install proprietary drivers.
> First my wireless network (Broadcom BCM43142), successfully installed, then I tried with my video card (Nvidia GeForce GTX 850M) and while failing in the first and second methods suggested in the wiki, it also gave me instability for the previously installed wifi drivers.
> 
> Due to the several passages and fixes I've tried, I couldn't resume them all in the same post/email, so I would like to ask if this is the right format to ask for help or maybe an IRC contact would be more efficient.
> 
> Thank you for being part of this wonderful project,

I have a ~2011 Dell Latitude E6520 laptop with Nvidia Optimus graphics. 
It has always required non-free firmware for the Wi-Fi.  On Debian 9 
with the free nouveau driver, the graphics work fine; both internal and 
external.  I recently beat my head against Debian 10, the free nouveau 
driver, and the non-free nvidia-legacy-390xx-driver; without much 
success [1].


My ideal is a FOSS distribution that works OOTB with as little 
fiddle-faddeling as possible.  I went back to Debian 9.  I suggest that 
you try that.


David


[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/01/msg00035.html

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#230897 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau (was: Help request installing wi-fi/video-card prop...)

David Christensen composed on 2021-01-20 11:33 (UTC-0800):

> I have a ~2011 Dell Latitude E6520 laptop with Nvidia Optimus graphics. 
> It has always required non-free firmware for the Wi-Fi.  On Debian 9 
> with the free nouveau driver, the graphics work fine; both internal and 
> external.  I recently beat my head against Debian 10, the free nouveau 
> driver, and the non-free nvidia-legacy-390xx-driver; without much 
> success [1].

> My ideal is a FOSS distribution that works OOTB with as little 
> fiddle-faddeling as possible.  I went back to Debian 9.  I suggest that 
> you try that.

> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/01/msg00035.html

In 2008 a new technology DDX driver's development was begun:
<https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-modesetting/commit/?id=b212306ae7bd3a79fb290a32ebd3952c2cba846d>
The new technology made it hardware independent, able to be used by any GPU that
has a full-functioning DRM/KMS driver. 2D acceleration depended on Glamor. In
Debian, the xf86-video-modesetting package was named xserver-xorg-video-modesetting.

In 2014, the development stage of xf86-video-modesetting ceased.
<https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-modesetting/>

Its life as a separate package then ceased as well. It was moved into the server
package. I never found an announcement to the effect, but I believe this move in
effect made it the default DDX driver for any version of the Xorg server from
version 1.17.0 and up.

"...GLAMOR acceleration on works on the NVIDIA G80 (GeForce 8) GPUs and newer
where as Nouveau focuses on support going back to the Riva TNT2 days. Also, the
xf86-video-nouveau is designed to be simple and work well..."
<https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-Vs-Modesetting>

In 2014 also, the last official release of the Intel DDX driver was made. Since
then, it continues to receive patches, but the focus of its developers has been on
the Modesetting DDX.

Debian 8 contained server 1.16.4 and the development version of
xf86-video-modesetting. This package disappeared with release of Debian 9, which
runs the 1.19.2 server.

Thus, as of Debian 9, those running the Nouveau DDX are not running the upstream
default, which is named, for better or worse, Modesetting.

Like most other distros, Debian by default installs a metapackage that includes
all optional DDX driver packages, which includes xserver-xorg-video-nouveau. I
cannot provide a reference to this, but IMO the distro's packagers find they must
do this in order to best support at initial installation the remaining antique
GPUs in service by users that the Modesetting DDX driver does not support. A side
effect of this inclusion of the optional DDX drivers is few users are aware that
the Modesetting even exists, much less than it being developers consider it to be
the optimal FOSS DDX.

I have 5 PCs currently running older NVidia GPUs, the newest a Quadro NVS 310 and
a GeForce GT 630. Each is in multiboot with various Debian and other distros, in
current, non-current, and pre-release versions. I also have a GeForce 8600GT on
the shelf that goes in and out of various PCs for testing purposes. All are
normally run on the Modesetting DDX driver, occasionally for testing purposes
only, on the Nouveau DDX. In no case have I found the Nouveau DDX to be better in
any respect than the Modesetting DDX.

I have multiple operating 64bit PCs with Intel IGPs. All that are supported by it
are run on the very same Modesetting DDX driver. The situation is roughly the same
here with AMD APUs, IGPs and GPUs. Some I use with the AMDGPU DDX, the rest, if
supported by it, are all run on the Modesetting DDX.

I have never installed any proprietary graphics driver on any of my own hardware,
so can't offer any guidance on maintenance or performance issues from personal
experience. That said, IMO, anyone who doesn't try the upstream default DDX, if
supported, before installing one of NVidia's own drivers is shortchanging himself
of the knowledge of whether or not maintenance of proprietary drivers when kernels
are changed is worth whatever benefit in performance is actually observable for
his own use case.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230898 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

On 2021-01-20 16:45 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

> In 2008 a new technology DDX driver's development was begun:
> <https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-modesetting/commit/?id=b212306ae7bd3a79fb290a32ebd3952c2cba846d>
> The new technology made it hardware independent, able to be used by any GPU that
> has a full-functioning DRM/KMS driver. 2D acceleration depended on Glamor. In
> Debian, the xf86-video-modesetting package was named xserver-xorg-video-modesetting.
>
> In 2014, the development stage of xf86-video-modesetting ceased.
> <https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-modesetting/>
>
> Its life as a separate package then ceased as well. It was moved into the server
> package. I never found an announcement to the effect, but I believe this move in
> effect made it the default DDX driver for any version of the Xorg server from
> version 1.17.0 and up.

Not really, the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card specific driver
if available.  On Debian, the modesetting driver is preferred for
non-vintage Intel and NVidia GPUs by distribution-specific patches[1,2].

Cheers,
       Sven


1. https://sources.debian.org/src/xorg-server/2:1.20.10-2/debian/patches/06_use-intel-only-on-pre-gen4.diff
2. https://sources.debian.org/src/xorg-server/2:1.20.10-2/debian/patches/07_use-modesetting-driver-by-default-on-GeForce.diff

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#230902 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

Sven Joachim composed on 2021-01-20 23:18 (UTC+0100):

> On 2021-01-20 16:45 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Its life as a separate package then ceased as well. It was moved into the server
>> package. I never found an announcement to the effect, but I believe this move in
>> effect made it the default DDX driver for any version of the Xorg server from
>> version 1.17.0 and up.

> Not really, the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card specific driver
> if available. 

That was exactly one of my points. "If available" equates to they are optional,
not needed by primarily AMD, Intel and NVidia graphics devices made since
somewhere around 2010.

> On Debian, the modesetting driver is preferred for
> non-vintage Intel and NVidia GPUs by distribution-specific patches[1,2].

I was aware of this general concept and thinking about it, just forgot to actually
remember to include it before sending. IME though, availability of the
gpu-specific drivers will far more often than not mean they will be used in
preference to the Modesetting.

> 1. https://sources.debian.org/src/xorg-server/2:1.20.10-2/debian/patches/06_use-intel-only-on-pre-gen4.diff
> 2. https://sources.debian.org/src/xorg-server/2:1.20.10-2/debian/patches/07_use-modesetting-driver-by-default-on-GeForce.diff

I have multiple Intel IGPs classified as Gen 4 or newer that, contrary to what I
believe the first of those patches to mean, do not use Modesetting when Intel is
available, absent admin specifically configuring Modesetting's use.

>From what little I can make of the second patch, I think it might should apply to
3 or 4 of my NVidia GPUs (GeForce 8 & up), but that's not a result I've observed.

Since a year or so of server 1.17.0 appearance, the GPU-specific DDX drivers spend
a bare minimum of time installed on the vast majority of my PCs. Other than
AMDGPU, the others occasionally get installed only temporarily for quick testing
and then are removed.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230906 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

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On 2021-01-20 at 19:32, Felix Miata wrote:

> Sven Joachim composed on 2021-01-20 23:18 (UTC+0100):
> 
>> On 2021-01-20 16:45 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
>>> Its life as a separate package then ceased as well. It was moved
>>> into the server package. I never found an announcement to the
>>> effect, but I believe this move in effect made it the default DDX
>>> driver for any version of the Xorg server from version 1.17.0 and
>>> up.
> 
>> Not really, the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card
>> specific driver if available.
> 
> That was exactly one of my points. "If available" equates to they are
> optional, not needed by primarily AMD, Intel and NVidia graphics
> devices made since somewhere around 2010.

This looks like another case (which I hadn't noticed before) of a
difference in possible meanings of "default".

Some people may read "the default DDX driver" to mean "the DDX driver
which will be used unless something tells it to do otherwise". I'm
guessing this is how Sven read it.

Other people may read it to mean "the DDX driver which will be used in
the default case where no better one is available". I'm guessing this is
how you intended it.

> Since a year or so of server 1.17.0 appearance, the GPU-specific DDX
> drivers spend a bare minimum of time installed on the vast majority
> of my PCs. Other than AMDGPU, the others occasionally get installed
> only temporarily for quick testing and then are removed.

One thing which I haven't been able to make out yet in reading about
these modesetting drivers: how well do they work for 3D performance? Or
for that matter, high-end 2D, such as you get with Dwarf Fortress?

The only positive statements I've found so far, that I recall, are that
they work well for 2D acceleration on at least some (if not most) GPU
models.

If you're using them near-exclusively on most of your PCs, that could
imply that they work fine for 3D etc., or simply that you don't tend to
need those things on those PCs.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#230910 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

The Wanderer composed on 2021-01-20 19:44 (UTC-0500):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Sven Joachim composed on 2021-01-20 23:18 (UTC+0100):

>>> the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card
>>> specific driver if available.

>> That was exactly one of my points. "If available" equates to they are
>> optional, not needed by primarily AMD, Intel and NVidia graphics
>> devices made since somewhere around 2010.

> This looks like another case (which I hadn't noticed before) of a
> difference in possible meanings of "default".

> Some people may read "the default DDX driver" to mean "the DDX driver
> which will be used unless something tells it to do otherwise". I'm
> guessing this is how Sven read it.

Above was mine.

> Other people may read it to mean "the DDX driver which will be used in
> the default case where no better one is available". I'm guessing this is
> how you intended it.

Others might, but not me as worded. The crutch word there is "better". That
language implies that the other that is available /is/ better. Without seeing
results of proper comparison testing, I don't see how one can be known or assumed
to be better. IMO, the (newer technology) Modesetting wouldn't have been made a
non-optional, non-discrete package if it wasn't roughly equivalent at a minimum to
hardware-specific drivers on the vast majority of current at the time hardware.

To me in this context default means the one that will be used, if supported, when
no /unneeded/ and thus optional DDX drivers drivers are installed, aka none of
xf86-video-* are installed. Because most mainstream hardware of the day, and
since, is supported, none of the optionals are /needed/ (as long as a
fully-functional DRM/KMS kernel module exists). The installation of the optional
drivers equates to something telling it to do otherwise.

>> Since a year or so of server 1.17.0 appearance, the GPU-specific DDX
>> drivers spend a bare minimum of time installed on the vast majority
>> of my PCs. Other than AMDGPU, the others occasionally get installed
>> only temporarily for quick testing and then are removed.

> One thing which I haven't been able to make out yet in reading about
> these modesetting drivers: how well do they work for 3D performance? Or
> for that matter, high-end 2D, such as you get with Dwarf Fortress?

I have no experience with, or interest in, any sort of gaming, computer or otherwise.

> The only positive statements I've found so far, that I recall, are that
> they work well for 2D acceleration on at least some (if not most) GPU
> models.

> If you're using them near-exclusively on most of your PCs, that could
> imply that they work fine for 3D etc., or simply that you don't tend to
> need those things on those PCs.

The latter. To me, 2D and 3D have no relevant meaning in a computing context. I
can't tell where 2D stops and 3D starts. 3D only simulates 3 dimensions. A screen
only displays 2 dimensions. What's the fuss?

When I want TV I use a TV and remote controller and an easy chair or sofa, not a
workchair and desk and rodent and keyboard and all the distractions of
multitasking. My computers are general purpose tools for getting work done. Most
videos are primarily time devouring entertainers, amusement.

a (as first letter as affects meaning of word): anti or not

muse: v: to think or ruminate upon.

thus:

amuse: literally not think or unthink
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230914 — [OT] Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

On Wed 20 Jan 2021 at 21:17:30 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> When I want TV I use a TV and remote controller and an easy chair or sofa, not a
> workchair and desk and rodent and keyboard and all the distractions of
> multitasking. My computers are general purpose tools for getting work done. Most
> videos are primarily time devouring entertainers, amusement.
> 
> a (as first letter as affects meaning of word): anti or not
> 
> muse: v: to think or ruminate upon.
> 
> thus:
> 
> amuse: literally not think or unthink

Ouch. It's derived from French: the à means to/at, not anti/without.

Cheers,
David.

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#230917 — Re: [OT] Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

David Wright composed on 2021-01-20 23:58 (UTC-0600):

> On Wed 20 Jan 2021 at 21:17:30 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:

>> When I want TV I use a TV and remote controller and an easy chair or sofa, not a
>> workchair and desk and rodent and keyboard and all the distractions of
>> multitasking. My computers are general purpose tools for getting work done. Most
>> videos are primarily time devouring entertainers, amusement.

>> a (as first letter as affects meaning of word): anti or not

>> muse: v: to think or ruminate upon.

>> thus:

>> amuse: literally not think or unthink

> Ouch. It's derived from French: the à means to/at, not anti/without.

In many cases yes. It has several others as well, such as in avocation. In others,
such as amuse, clearly not to or at:

"a- (3)

prefix meaning "not, without," from Greek a-, an- "not" (the "alpha privative"),
from PIE root *ne- "not" (source also of English un-).

In words from Greek, such as abysmal, adamant, amethyst; also partly nativized as
a prefix of negation (asexual, amoral, agnostic). The ancient alpha privatum,
denoting want or absence."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/a-
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230924 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

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On 2021-01-20 at 21:17, Felix Miata wrote:

> The Wanderer composed on 2021-01-20 19:44 (UTC-0500):
> 
>> Felix Miata wrote:
> 
>>> Sven Joachim composed on 2021-01-20 23:18 (UTC+0100):
> 
>>>> the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card specific
>>>> driver if available.
> 
>>> That was exactly one of my points. "If available" equates to they
>>> are optional, not needed by primarily AMD, Intel and NVidia
>>> graphics devices made since somewhere around 2010.
> 
>> This looks like another case (which I hadn't noticed before) of a 
>> difference in possible meanings of "default".
> 
>> Some people may read "the default DDX driver" to mean "the DDX
>> driver which will be used unless something tells it to do
>> otherwise". I'm guessing this is how Sven read it.
> 
> Above was mine.

In that case I'm not sure how this fits with your statement about "if
available", above.

>> Other people may read it to mean "the DDX driver which will be used
>> in the default case where no better one is available". I'm guessing
>> this is how you intended it.
> 
> Others might, but not me as worded. The crutch word there is
> "better".

Acknowledged; discard that. Try "where no alternative is available"
instead. (I couldn't think of preferable wording at the time of posting,
but the latter has come to me since.)

> To me in this context default means the one that will be used, if
> supported, when no /unneeded/ and thus optional DDX drivers drivers
> are installed, aka none of xf86-video-* are installed.

In other words, "in the default case where no alternative is available".

I used "better" originally because presumably the system would not
choose the other over this, when the other is available, if it did not
expect the other to provide better results.

> Because most mainstream hardware of the day, and since, is supported,
> none of the optionals are /needed/ (as long as a fully-functional
> DRM/KMS kernel module exists). The installation of the optional
> drivers equates to something telling it to do otherwise.

I don't read the action of installing an optional driver as telling the
system to use that driver. Installing a driver merely makes it
available, it does not explicitly tell the system to use it; telling the
system to use that driver would require something like specifying which
driver to use in a configuration file.

>>> Since a year or so of server 1.17.0 appearance, the GPU-specific
>>> DDX drivers spend a bare minimum of time installed on the vast
>>> majority of my PCs. Other than AMDGPU, the others occasionally
>>> get installed only temporarily for quick testing and then are
>>> removed.
> 
>> One thing which I haven't been able to make out yet in reading
>> about these modesetting drivers: how well do they work for 3D
>> performance? Or for that matter, high-end 2D, such as you get with
>> Dwarf Fortress?
> 
> I have no experience with, or interest in, any sort of gaming,
> computer or otherwise.

3D performance does not always mean gaming (though I'll admit that's the
overwhelmingly most common case for it I can think of), but fair enough.

That does mean that your recommendations don't necessarily generalize to
what many other people are going to want, however, so it would be worth
making clear when you advocate for the modesetting drivers only that you
can't testify to whether they work for 3D performance.

>> The only positive statements I've found so far, that I recall, are
>> that they work well for 2D acceleration on at least some (if not
>> most) GPU models.
> 
>> If you're using them near-exclusively on most of your PCs, that
>> could imply that they work fine for 3D etc., or simply that you
>> don't tend to need those things on those PCs.
> 
> The latter. To me, 2D and 3D have no relevant meaning in a computing
> context. I can't tell where 2D stops and 3D starts. 3D only simulates
> 3 dimensions. A screen only displays 2 dimensions. What's the fuss?

A 2D representation of a 3D space is much harder to calculate and render
on the fly than is a 2D representation of a 2D space, and so requires
much more computing power. If you happen to want the former, and your
system is only set up to be able to provide the latter, you may wind up
with an unpleasant low-performance surprise one day.

> When I want TV I use a TV and remote controller and an easy chair or
> sofa, not a workchair and desk and rodent and keyboard and all the
> distractions of multitasking. My computers are general purpose tools
> for getting work done.

Computers are tools for automation. What makes things interesting is the
question of what one chooses to automate.

> Most videos are primarily time devouring entertainers, amusement.
> 
> a (as first letter as affects meaning of word): anti or not
> 
> muse: v: to think or ruminate upon.
> 
> thus:
> 
> amuse: literally not think or unthink

https://www.etymonline.com/word/amuse states that this is the "to, at"
prefix from Latin in a sense of "causing to", not the "not, without" one
from Greek.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#230925 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

> https://www.etymonline.com/word/amuse states that this is the "to, at"
> prefix from Latin in a sense of "causing to", not the "not, without" one
> from Greek.

Funnily [oops, I guess I meant "amusingly"] enough, the two end up
meaning kind of the same: in that what happens is that attention is
diverted, so when you "amuse", you cause thinking of something which
prevents thinking of what you'd have been thinking of if it weren't for
that amusement.


        Stefan

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#230958 — Re: [OT] Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

On Thu 21 Jan 2021 at 01:14:31 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2021-01-20 23:58 (UTC-0600):
> > On Wed 20 Jan 2021 at 21:17:30 (-0500), Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> When I want TV I use a TV and remote controller and an easy chair or sofa, not a
> >> workchair and desk and rodent and keyboard and all the distractions of
> >> multitasking. My computers are general purpose tools for getting work done. Most
> >> videos are primarily time devouring entertainers, amusement.
> 
> >> a (as first letter as affects meaning of word): anti or not
> 
> >> muse: v: to think or ruminate upon.
> 
> >> thus:
> 
> >> amuse: literally not think or unthink
> 
> > Ouch. It's derived from French: the à means to/at, not anti/without.
> 
> In many cases yes. It has several others as well, such as in avocation. In others,
> such as amuse, clearly not to or at:
> 
> "a- (3)
> 
> prefix meaning "not, without," from Greek a-, an- "not" (the "alpha privative"),
> from PIE root *ne- "not" (source also of English un-).

Quite simply, you arbitrarily picked the wrong choice (3) and skipped over:

  a- (1)
  […]
  In words from Romanic languages, often it represents reduced forms
  of Latin ad "to, toward; for" (see ad-), or ab "from, away, off"
  (see ab-); both of which by about 7c. had been reduced to a in the
  ancestor of Old French. In a few cases it represents Latin ex.

> In words from Greek, such as abysmal, adamant, amethyst; also partly nativized as
> a prefix of negation (asexual, amoral, agnostic). The ancient alpha privatum,
> denoting want or absence."
> https://www.etymonline.com/word/a-

On Thu 21 Jan 2021 at 10:14:03 (-0500), Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > https://www.etymonline.com/word/amuse states that this is the "to, at"
> > prefix from Latin in a sense of "causing to", not the "not, without" one
> > from Greek.
> 
> Funnily [oops, I guess I meant "amusingly"] enough, the two end up
> meaning kind of the same: in that what happens is that attention is
> diverted, so when you "amuse", you cause thinking of something which
> prevents thinking of what you'd have been thinking of if it weren't for
> that amusement.

But that *is* just a fanciful rationalisation of a false dichotomy.
I can find no hint of negation in the etymology of amuse.

Cheers,
David.

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#230931 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

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On Jo, 21 ian 21, 06:30:16, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-01-20 at 21:17, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> > The Wanderer composed on 2021-01-20 19:44 (UTC-0500):
> > 
> >> Felix Miata wrote:
> > 
> >>> Sven Joachim composed on 2021-01-20 23:18 (UTC+0100):
> > 
> >>>> the upstream Xorg server still uses a graphics card specific
> >>>> driver if available.
> > 
> >>> That was exactly one of my points. "If available" equates to they
> >>> are optional, not needed by primarily AMD, Intel and NVidia
> >>> graphics devices made since somewhere around 2010.
> > 
> >> This looks like another case (which I hadn't noticed before) of a 
> >> difference in possible meanings of "default".
> > 
> >> Some people may read "the default DDX driver" to mean "the DDX
> >> driver which will be used unless something tells it to do
> >> otherwise". I'm guessing this is how Sven read it.
> > 
> > Above was mine.
> 
> In that case I'm not sure how this fits with your statement about "if
> available", above.
> 
> >> Other people may read it to mean "the DDX driver which will be used
> >> in the default case where no better one is available". I'm guessing
> >> this is how you intended it.
> > 
> > Others might, but not me as worded. The crutch word there is
> > "better".
> 
> Acknowledged; discard that. Try "where no alternative is available"
> instead. (I couldn't think of preferable wording at the time of posting,
> but the latter has come to me since.)
> 
> > To me in this context default means the one that will be used, if
> > supported, when no /unneeded/ and thus optional DDX drivers drivers
> > are installed, aka none of xf86-video-* are installed.
> 
> In other words, "in the default case where no alternative is available".
> 
> I used "better" originally because presumably the system would not
> choose the other over this, when the other is available, if it did not
> expect the other to provide better results.
> 
> > Because most mainstream hardware of the day, and since, is supported,
> > none of the optionals are /needed/ (as long as a fully-functional
> > DRM/KMS kernel module exists). The installation of the optional
> > drivers equates to something telling it to do otherwise.
> 
> I don't read the action of installing an optional driver as telling the
> system to use that driver. Installing a driver merely makes it
> available, it does not explicitly tell the system to use it; telling the
> system to use that driver would require something like specifying which
> driver to use in a configuration file.

In my opinion installing an *optional* driver to enable it makes for a 
nice user experience (as opposed to having to additionally edit 
configuration files).

It's unfortunate that all drivers are installed by default (as in a 
standard Debian installation with a Desktop Environment) in order to 
ensure maximum compatibility.
 
> > The latter. To me, 2D and 3D have no relevant meaning in a computing
> > context. I can't tell where 2D stops and 3D starts. 3D only simulates
> > 3 dimensions. A screen only displays 2 dimensions. What's the fuss?
> 
> A 2D representation of a 3D space is much harder to calculate and render
> on the fly than is a 2D representation of a 2D space, and so requires
> much more computing power. If you happen to want the former, and your
> system is only set up to be able to provide the latter, you may wind up
> with an unpleasant low-performance surprise one day.

As far as I understand the "3D" engines of GPUs are now being used also 
to render traditional 2D applications (i.e. without even trying to 
simulate three dimensions), so yes, at least some basic "3D" support and 
performance is important.


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#230933 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

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On 2021-01-21 at 13:35, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Jo, 21 ian 21, 06:30:16, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>> On 2021-01-20 at 21:17, Felix Miata wrote:

>>> Because most mainstream hardware of the day, and since, is
>>> supported, none of the optionals are /needed/ (as long as a
>>> fully-functional DRM/KMS kernel module exists). The installation
>>> of the optional drivers equates to something telling it to do
>>> otherwise.
>> 
>> I don't read the action of installing an optional driver as telling
>> the system to use that driver. Installing a driver merely makes it 
>> available, it does not explicitly tell the system to use it;
>> telling the system to use that driver would require something like
>> specifying which driver to use in a configuration file.
> 
> In my opinion installing an *optional* driver to enable it makes for
> a nice user experience (as opposed to having to additionally edit 
> configuration files).

I don't necessarily disagree, although there can be difficulties in
practice with some use cases. My point was more musing about
(differences in people's) definitions of "default".

In one approach, the system defaults to using the optional driver if it
is available, and falls back to a simpler one if it is not.

In another approach, the system defaults to using the simpler driver
even when the optional one is available, unless something has told it to
use the optional driver.

In the latter case, the simpler driver is the default by every
definition that's occurring to me offhand.

In the former case, by some definitions the simpler driver is the
default, and by the other definition it is not. I think that's the case
we're looking at in this instance.

As a result of these multiple possible definitions being able to apply,
the use of the bare term "default" can be confusing and result in people
potentially talking past one another, which I've seen happen too many
times in the past. (That being part of why I have such an interest in
the multiple meanings of "default" that a manifestation of a new one
grabs my attention.)

>>> The latter. To me, 2D and 3D have no relevant meaning in a
>>> computing context. I can't tell where 2D stops and 3D starts. 3D
>>> only simulates 3 dimensions. A screen only displays 2 dimensions.
>>> What's the fuss?
>> 
>> A 2D representation of a 3D space is much harder to calculate and
>> render on the fly than is a 2D representation of a 2D space, and so
>> requires much more computing power. If you happen to want the
>> former, and your system is only set up to be able to provide the
>> latter, you may wind up with an unpleasant low-performance surprise
>> one day.
> 
> As far as I understand the "3D" engines of GPUs are now being used
> also to render traditional 2D applications (i.e. without even trying
> to simulate three dimensions), so yes, at least some basic "3D"
> support and performance is important.

I believe I recall this myself, but I wasn't sufficiently certain of it
to declare it without doing digging which I did not at that point have
time for.

IIRC, Dwarf Fortress is one example of this being done, although it's
irrelevant to Felix because it's still gaming (in which he's said he's
not interested).

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#231039 — Re: Upstream Default (FOSS) DDX Driver for NVidia GPUs is not Nouveau

The Wanderer composed on 2021-01-21 06:30 (UTC-0500):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Because most mainstream hardware of the day, and since, is supported,
>> none of the optionals are /needed/ (as long as a fully-functional
>> DRM/KMS kernel module exists). The installation of the optional
>> drivers equates to something telling it to do otherwise.
 
> I don't read the action of installing an optional driver as telling the
> system to use that driver. Installing a driver merely makes it
> available, it does not explicitly tell the system to use it; telling the
> system to use that driver would require something like specifying which
> driver to use in a configuration file.
Below looks like a typical order of use that probably began, if not before when,
modesetting DDX as a separate package ceased. First found, only DDX employed:

# egrep 't Oper|LoadM|enabled on|Unload|ailed' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[     5.216] Current Operating System: Linux asa88 4.19.0-12-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.152-1 (2020-10-18) x86_64
[     5.263] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[     5.298] (II) LoadModule: "amdgpu"
[     5.310] (II) LoadModule: "ati"
[     5.311] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[     5.314] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[     5.317] (II) LoadModule: "vesa"
[     5.363] (II) LoadModule: "fbdevhw"
[     5.366] (II) LoadModule: "fb"
[     5.369] (II) LoadModule: "dri2"
[     5.702] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl"
[     5.763] (II) AMDGPU(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on AMD KAVERI (DRM 3.27.0, 4.19.0-12-amd64, LLVM 7.0.1)
[     6.057] (II) LoadModule: "ramdac"
[     6.057] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting"
[     6.058] (II) Unloading modesetting
[     6.058] (II) UnloadModule: "fbdev"
[     6.058] (II) Unloading fbdev
[     6.058] (II) UnloadSubModule: "fbdevhw"
[     6.058] (II) Unloading fbdevhw
[     6.058] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa"
[     6.058] (II) Unloading vesa
[     6.321] (II) LoadModule: "libinput"
#

Trying the same thing with Intel and NVidia, it's apparent that patches and/or
config files may affect loading, because LoadModule may be skipped for otherwise
possibles, e.g.:
# dpkg-query -l | grep o-nouv
ii  xserver-xorg-video-nouveau	1:1.0.16-1	amd64	X.Org X server -- Nouveau display driver
# grep -v ^\# /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i nouveau
# grep -v ^\# /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i Driver
# ls /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f
/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/00-keyboard.conf  /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/60-flags.conf
# grep -v ^\# /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i nouveau
# ls /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f
/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf   /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/40-libinput.conf
/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-quirks.conf  /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/70-synaptics.conf
# egrep 't Oper|LoadM|Unload|enabled on|KMS] K|ailed' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[    60.229] Current Operating System: Linux p5bse 4.19.0-13-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.160-2 (2020-11-28) x86_64
[    60.853] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[    61.912] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[    61.996] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[    62.050] (II) LoadModule: "vesa"
[    62.069] (II) LoadModule: "fbdevhw"
[    62.156] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl"
[    73.335] (II) modeset(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on NVD9
[    73.524] (II) LoadModule: "fb"
[    73.733] (II) UnloadModule: "fbdev"
[    73.733] (II) Unloading fbdev
[    73.733] (II) UnloadSubModule: "fbdevhw"
[    73.733] (II) Unloading fbdevhw
[    73.733] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa"
[    73.734] (II) Unloading vesa
[    76.853] (II) LoadModule: "libinput"
#
# dpkg-query -l | grep -i o-inte
ii  xserver-xorg-video-intel	2:2.99.917+git20180925-2	i386	X.Org X server -- Intel i8xx, i9xx display driver
# grep -v ^\# /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i Driver
# grep -v ^\# /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i intel
# ls /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f
/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/00-keyboard.conf  /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/25-intel.conf  /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/60-flags.conf
# ls /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f
/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-amdgpu.conf  /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-radeon.conf
/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf   /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/40-libinput.conf
/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-quirks.conf
# egrep 't Oper|LoadM|Unload|enabled on|Chips|ailed' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[    95.387] Current Operating System: Linux gx280 4.19.0-13-686 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.160-2 (2020-11-28) i686
[    96.187] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[   105.802] (II) LoadModule: "intel"
[   106.443] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[   106.591] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[   106.654] (II) LoadModule: "vesa"
[   106.703] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Integrated Graphics Chipsets:
[   106.790] (II) LoadModule: "fbdevhw"
[   106.910] (--) intel(0): Integrated Graphics Chipset: Intel(R) 915G	# not supported by Glamor, so modesetting fails
[   106.945] (II) LoadModule: "dri3"
[   106.945] (II) LoadModule: "dri2"
[   106.945] (II) LoadModule: "present"
[   106.945] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting"
[   106.945] (II) Unloading modesetting
[   106.945] (II) UnloadModule: "fbdev"
[   106.945] (II) Unloading fbdev
[   106.945] (II) UnloadSubModule: "fbdevhw"
[   106.946] (II) Unloading fbdevhw
[   106.946] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa"
[   106.946] (II) Unloading vesa
[   109.160] (II) LoadModule: "libinput"
# apt-purge xserver-xorg-video-intel
...
# dpkg-query -l | grep -i o-inte
# egrep 't Oper|LoadM|Unload|enabled on|Chips|ailed' /var/log/Xorg.0.log.old
[  4918.908] Current Operating System: Linux gx280 4.19.0-13-686 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.160-2 (2020-11-28) i686
[  4918.933] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[  4918.935] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[  4918.960] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl"
[  4919.000] (II) modeset(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on Mesa DRI Intel(R) 915G x86/MMX/SSE2
[  4919.054] (II) modeset(0): First detailed timing is preferred mode
[  4919.055] (II) modeset(0): Supported detailed timing:
[  4919.056] (II) LoadModule: "fb"
[  4919.057] (EE) modeset(0): Failed to initialize glamor at ScreenInit() time.
[  4919.057] (EE) AddScreen/ScreenInit failed for driver 0
#
# dpkg-query -l | grep o-intel
ii  xserver-xorg-video-intel	2:2.99.917+git20180925-2	amd64	X.Org X server -- Intel i8xx, i9xx display driver
# grep -v ^\# /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i Driver
# grep -v ^\# /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/*f | grep -i intel
# egrep 't Oper|LoadM|Unload|enabled on|Chips|ailed' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[   984.288] Current Operating System: Linux gx780 4.19.0-12-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.152-1 (2020-10-18) x86_64
[   984.310] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[   984.311] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting"
[   984.312] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[   984.335] (II) LoadModule: "vesa"
[   984.373] (II) LoadModule: "fbdevhw"
[   984.391] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl"
[   984.414] (II) modeset(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on Mesa DRI Intel(R) Q45/Q43
[   984.457] (II) LoadModule: "fb"
[   984.457] (II) UnloadModule: "fbdev"
[   984.457] (II) Unloading fbdev
[   984.457] (II) UnloadSubModule: "fbdevhw"
[   984.457] (II) Unloading fbdevhw
[   984.457] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa"
[   984.457] (II) Unloading vesa
[   984.541] (II) LoadModule: "libinput"
#
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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