Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #224240 > unrolled thread

Installing Buster (improvements)

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  Installing Buster (improvements) Klaus Jantzen <k.d.jantzen@mailbox.org> - 2020-06-30 22:40 +0200
    Re: Installing Buster (improvements) Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2020-06-30 23:50 +0200
      Re: Installing Buster (improvements) Klaus Jantzen <k.d.jantzen@mailbox.org> - 2020-07-01 14:30 +0200
        Re: Installing Buster (improvements) "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-07-01 17:20 +0200
        Re: Installing Buster (improvements) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
    Re: Installing Buster (improvements) "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-07-01 08:30 +0200

#224240 — Installing Buster (improvements)

Hello,

today I installed Buster on my laptop.

As usual it ran very well (at the end). But I would like to suggest the 
follwing improvements to the Graphical install:

a) At some point the process informed me, that a firmware module is 
missing and asked whether I would like to supply it from a disk, a USB 
stick or from the net. As I had this module from another installation on 
a USB stick I stuck it into the laptop. The install process did not even 
look at it; it was looking only for network devices.

b) Before I started the installation I defined a partition of 150GB on 
the disk (SSD) for Debian. At some point in the process the system 
informed me that I did not provide a swap partition (I had hoped the 
installation process would allocate that automatically from the space 
provided) and asked whether I want to define that partition. As there 
was some room left on the disk I was ready to do it. The system asked 
for the data of where that partition should lie in terms of 
'cylinder/sector/head' (or something like it). Now usually I am not 
concerned with this type of data and even more so as I was installing 
debian on an SSD. As there was no way I could solve this problem 
directly I had to abort the installation, define the swap partition and 
restart the installion process.

Couldn't that be done more user friendly? Especially in view of the fact 
that I assume  that Graphical Install is not supposed to be an Expert 
installation.

c) When entering the passwords for root and for the user there are 
always two lines: one for entering the password, the other where one 
clicks if one wants to see the password.

I suggest that these two line be switched: the first  for the selection 
for seeing the password, the second for entering the password.  Again a 
little increase in user friendlyness.

-- 

K.D.J.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#224241

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 6/30/20 1:36 PM, Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> Hello,
>
> today I installed Buster on my laptop.
>
It would be very helpful to know which of the many install ISOs you used.
> As usual it ran very well (at the end). But I would like to suggest 
> the follwing improvements to the Graphical install:
>
> a) At some point the process informed me, that a firmware module is 
> missing and asked whether I would like to supply it from a disk, a USB 
> stick or from the net. As I had this module from another installation 
> on a USB stick I stuck it into the laptop. The install process did not 
> even look at it; it was looking only for network devices.
How do we know that "The install process did not even look at it"?

BTW: in the future if you expect the need for firmware I suggest using 
one of the many unofficial non-free firmware ISOs.
<https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware>
>
> b) Before I started the installation I defined a partition of 150GB on 
> the disk (SSD) for Debian. At some point in the process the system 
> informed me that I did not provide a swap partition (I had hoped the 
> installation process would allocate that automatically from the space 
> provided) and asked whether I want to define that partition. 
This is normal, you have many options. Sometimes swap is not wanted.
> As there was some room left on the disk I was ready to do it. The 
> system asked for the data of where that partition should lie in terms 
> of 'cylinder/sector/head' (or something like it). Now usually I am not 
> concerned with this type of data and even more so as I was installing 
> debian on an SSD. As there was no way I could solve this problem 
> directly I had to abort the installation, define the swap partition 
> and restart the installion process.
It is unfortunate that you did not read any of the Debian Wiki install 
manuals and tutorials before you started.

I suggest you start reading here: 
https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/installmanual

>
> Couldn't that be done more user friendly? Especially in view of the 
> fact that I assume  that Graphical Install is not supposed to be an 
> Expert installation.
>
That was a poor assumption. Again, the install manual covers that.
>
> c) When entering the passwords for root and for the user there are 
> always two lines: one for entering the password, the other where one 
> clicks if one wants to see the password.
>
> I suggest that these two line be switched: the first  for the 
> selection for seeing the password, the second for entering the 
> password.  Again a little increase in user friendlyness.
>
There are tons of ISOs and methods. Best of luck next time.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#224256

On 6/30/20 11:29 PM, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>
>
> On 6/30/20 1:36 PM, Klaus Jantzen wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> today I installed Buster on my laptop.
>>
> It would be very helpful to know which of the many install ISOs you used.

debian-10.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso

>>> As usual it ran very well (at the end). But I would like to suggest 
>>> the follwing improvements to the Graphical install:
>>>
>>> a) At some point the process informed me, that a firmware module is 
>>> missing and asked whether I would like to supply it from a disk, a 
>>> USB stick or from the net. As I had this module from another 
>>> installation on a USB stick I stuck it into the laptop. The install 
>>> process did not even look at it; it was looking only for network 
>>> devices.
>> How do we know that "The install process did not even look at it"? 

I assume it would have told me that the module itself or the debian 
firmware-package (both were on the stick) are not usable, readable or 
something like that.

>>
>> BTW: in the future if you expect the need for firmware I suggest 
>> using one of the many unofficial non-free firmware ISOs.

I know.

I have installed the various versions of debian since 1995(?) providing 
all the partitions, including swap, as required. This time I wanted to 
find out what debian does when you provide just one big partition.

>>>
>>> b) Before I started the installation I defined a partition of 150GB 
>>> on the disk (SSD) for Debian. At some point in the process the 
>>> system informed me that I did not provide a swap partition (I had 
>>> hoped the installation process would allocate that automatically 
>>> from the space provided) and asked whether I want to define that 
>>> partition. 
>> This is normal, you have many options. Sometimes swap is not wanted.
Accepted.
>>> As there was some room left on the disk I was ready to do it. The 
>>> system asked for the data of where that partition should lie in 
>>> terms of 'cylinder/sector/head' (or something like it). Now usually 
>>> I am not concerned with this type of data and even more so as I was 
>>> installing debian on an SSD. As there was no way I could solve this 
>>> problem directly I had to abort the installation, define the swap 
>>> partition and restart the installion process.
>> It is unfortunate that you did not read any of the Debian Wiki 
>> install manuals and tutorials before you started.
>>
>> I suggest you start reading here: 
>> https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/installmanual
>>
My point ist that when you have the possibility to allocate the missing 
partition in the process then the information expected from the user 
should be in terms that are generally used in this context: e.g. size, 
free space before/after the new partition. Do you know how much space 
you are talking about when you specify the space e.g. from cylinder  
30312/sector 301/head 45 to cylinder 30800/sector 20/head 4 on an SSD?
>>>
>>> Couldn't that be done more user friendly? Especially in view of the 
>>> fact that I assume  that Graphical Install is not supposed to be an 
>>> Expert installation.
>>>
>> That was a poor assumption. Again, the install manual covers that.
OK, my fault.
>>>
>>> c) When entering the passwords for root and for the user there are 
>>> always two lines: one for entering the password, the other where one 
>>> clicks if one wants to see the password.
>>>
>>> I suggest that these two line be switched: the first  for the 
>>> selection for seeing the password, the second for entering the 
>>> password.  Again a little increase in user friendlyness.
>>>
>> There are tons of ISOs and methods. Best of luck next time.

I have no problem with the "normal" ISOs, like the one I mentioned above.

--

K.D.J.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#224268

Hi,

Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> Do you know how much space you are talking
> about when you specify the space e.g. from cylinder  30312/sector 301/head
> 45 to cylinder 30800/sector 20/head 4 on an SSD?

This does not depend on the storage device, at least not in this century.

In your case it rather depends on the partition editor's guessing of how
many Heads there are per Cylinder (H/C) and how many Sectors per Head (S/H).
Then an address of Cylinder/Head/Sector is converted to Logical Block Adress
(LBA) by

  LBA = ( ( Cylinder * H/C ) + Head ) * S/H + Sector - 1

The size is then the difference between start and end LBA plus 1.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The C/H/S addressing scheme still exists only because MBR partition tables
have fields for start and end C/H/S. But that scheme ends at 8,422,686,720
bytes, due to the width of those fields.
So everything above the ~8 GB limit has to be computed as Logical Block
Adress from the C/H/S input before it can be written into the partition
table on the storage device.

The big question is the pair of conversion numbers H/C and S/H.
By tradition it is guessed and handed out by the BIOS to those who care.
But that guess is not guaranteed to be stable from machine to machine.

If the table already has entries which associate LBA with valid looking
C/H/S, then it is possible to deduce matching candidate pairs. Often only
one of the 16065 possible pairs matches all existing entries with valid
C/H/S numbers.
But some partition editors still guess differently, even if their guess
does not yield the existing LBAs.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#224276

On Wed 01 Jul 2020 at 14:20:41 (+0200), Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> On 6/30/20 11:29 PM, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> > On 6/30/20 1:36 PM, Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> > > today I installed Buster on my laptop.
> > > 
> > It would be very helpful to know which of the many install ISOs you used.
> 
> debian-10.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> 
> > > > As usual it ran very well (at the end). But I would like
> > > > to suggest the follwing improvements to the Graphical
> > > > install:
> > > > 
> > > > a) At some point the process informed me, that a firmware
> > > > module is missing and asked whether I would like to supply
> > > > it from a disk, a USB stick or from the net. As I had this
> > > > module from another installation on a USB stick I stuck it
> > > > into the laptop. The install process did not even look at
> > > > it; it was looking only for network devices.
> > > How do we know that "The install process did not even look at
> > > it"?
> 
> I assume it would have told me that the module itself or the debian
> firmware-package (both were on the stick) are not usable, readable or
> something like that.

There's no need to guess. When the installer runs, there's a log
scrolling past on VC4. If you miss some information, the file can
be examined in a shell using, IIRC,   more /var/log/syslog.
After the installation has finished, the log is at /var/log/installer/syslog.

> > > BTW: in the future if you expect the need for firmware I
> > > suggest using one of the many unofficial non-free firmware
> > > ISOs.
> 
> I know.
> 
> I have installed the various versions of debian since 1995(?)
> providing all the partitions, including swap, as required. This time I
> wanted to find out what debian does when you provide just one big
> partition.

It should allow you to install onto that one partition.

> > > > b) Before I started the installation I defined a partition
> > > > of 150GB on the disk (SSD) for Debian. At some point in
> > > > the process the system informed me that I did not provide
> > > > a swap partition (I had hoped the installation process
> > > > would allocate that automatically from the space provided)
> > > > and asked whether I want to define that partition.
> > > This is normal, you have many options. Sometimes swap is not wanted.
> Accepted.
> > > > As there was some room left on the disk I was ready to do
> > > > it. The system asked for the data of where that partition
> > > > should lie in terms of 'cylinder/sector/head' (or
> > > > something like it). Now usually I am not concerned with
> > > > this type of data and even more so as I was installing
> > > > debian on an SSD. As there was no way I could solve this
> > > > problem directly I had to abort the installation, define
> > > > the swap partition and restart the installion process.

I can't speak to your CHS problem. AFAICT the installer can also ask
for partition sizes in other units, like %, but this might depend on
the fact that you had already partly partitioned the disk and were
expected to know its (fake ) geometry.

However, there's not much point in making suggestions here in the
absence of a more precise narrative of your experience.

> > > It is unfortunate that you did not read any of the Debian Wiki
> > > install manuals and tutorials before you started.
> > > 
> > > I suggest you start reading here:
> > > https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/installmanual
> > > 
> My point ist that when you have the possibility to allocate the
> missing partition in the process then the information expected from
> the user should be in terms that are generally used in this context:
> e.g. size, free space before/after the new partition. Do you know how
> much space you are talking about when you specify the space e.g. from
> cylinder  30312/sector 301/head 45 to cylinder 30800/sector 20/head 4
> on an SSD?

No idea. It's a long time since I saw any disk geometries other than
16383/16/63 (useless) or NNNNN/255/63 which is the normal fake.

The better strategy would have been to continue the installation
without swap, and then create the swap partition using the tool of
choice in the new installation (if you require it).

> > > > Couldn't that be done more user friendly? Especially in
> > > > view of the fact that I assume  that Graphical Install is
> > > > not supposed to be an Expert installation.
> > > > 
> > > That was a poor assumption. Again, the install manual covers that.
> OK, my fault.
> > > > 
> > > > c) When entering the passwords for root and for the user
> > > > there are always two lines: one for entering the password,
> > > > the other where one clicks if one wants to see the
> > > > password.
> > > > 
> > > > I suggest that these two line be switched: the first  for
> > > > the selection for seeing the password, the second for
> > > > entering the password.  Again a little increase in user
> > > > friendlyness.

I didn't realise that the Graphical Installer presented two lines.
The text installer looks like this, which seems clear and friendly:

   │                                                                               │    
   │ Note that you will not be able to see the password as you type it.            │    
   │                                                                               │    
   │ Root password:                                                                │    
   │                                                                               │    
   │ _____________________________________________________________________________ │    
   │                                                                               │    
   │ [ ] Show Password in Clear                                                    │    
   │                                                                               │    
   │     <Go Back>                                                  <Continue>     │    
   │                                                                               │    
   └───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘    

> > > There are tons of ISOs and methods. Best of luck next time.
> 
> I have no problem with the "normal" ISOs, like the one I mentioned above.

Cheers,
David.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#224244

Hi,

i assume that you are better off with your complaint at
  debian-boot@lists.debian.org

One can see in the list archive that bug reports about partitioning
during installation get re-attributed to package "debian-installer".
E.g. in
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2020/06/msg00065.html


Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> The system asked for the data of where that
> partition should lie in terms of 'cylinder/sector/head' (or something like
> it).

This kind of input demand is indeed outdated and ambiguous.

Did the partition editor at least tell how many "heads" a "cylinder" has
and how many "sectors" (i.e. blocks) are covered by one "head" ?
Did it show the start and end (or size) of the existing partition, so that
you get an impression what C/H/S address would be suitable as start of your
new partition ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web