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Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

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  Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center echo test <echotest09@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 20:40 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-26 21:50 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 22:10 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-28 22:50 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-06-29 08:10 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-30 00:00 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-29 15:20 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-29 23:50 +0200
            Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-30 01:30 +0200
              Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-30 20:10 +0200
                Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-30 21:00 +0200
                  Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center elvis <elvis@dogonfire.com> - 2020-07-01 12:50 +0200
                    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-07-01 13:10 +0200
                      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-07-01 14:20 +0200
                        RAID stuff [was Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a  dedicated data center] Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-07-01 14:30 +0200
                        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-07-01 14:50 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-29 15:00 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 17:00 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-29 17:10 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 17:40 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-29 17:30 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-29 18:00 +0200
            Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 18:20 +0200
              Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-29 18:30 +0200
                Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 22:50 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 18:00 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-06-26 22:00 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-26 22:10 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-26 22:50 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-26 23:00 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2020-06-29 15:30 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-29 15:50 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 17:30 +0200
            Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-06-29 17:40 +0200
              Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center MAS Jean-Louis <jean-louis.mas@imag.fr> - 2020-06-29 18:40 +0200
                Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 19:10 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2020-06-26 22:20 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-06-27 09:40 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-27 22:10 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-28 01:10 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2020-06-28 02:10 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-06-28 06:00 +0200
            Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-28 06:10 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 11:10 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 11:20 +0200
    Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-28 09:20 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-06-28 09:50 +0200
      Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center echo test <echotest09@gmail.com> - 2020-06-28 12:40 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-28 21:00 +0200
          Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center echo test <echotest09@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 19:50 +0200
            Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-30 00:30 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 09:10 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-06-28 20:30 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-29 04:20 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-29 04:30 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 09:10 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Alessandro Baggi <alessandro.baggi@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 09:30 +0200
          Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-29 21:00 +0200
        Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-29 09:40 +0200
      Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data  center David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-29 22:10 +0200

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#224046 — Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

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Hello,

First of all, please don't ask me why I simply don't want to use aws or gcp.

Then, I want to build a small data center for my company for hosting a web
app and a mail server. It's the first time I'm going to buy some hardware
for this. I tried looking for it on the web in order to compare them but it
seems that hardware vendors never want to talk about Debian on their
websites.

Seriously, I prefer using my money for donating to the Debian foundation
than having to pay for Ubuntu or Red Hat Enterprise because I love Debian
and ...

So, I want to know if It's a good idea to try using Debian in an enterprise
context, with hardwares like Dell EMC PowerEdge or Lenovo ThinkCenter which
seems to never mention that they support Debian. What kind of issues can I
encounter with such hardwares except simple cases like having to install
missing drivers with some already available firmwares.

Can you give me some alternative hardwares in case this idea may take me to
much time to solve ?

Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.

Sorry if my English is bad, it's not my mother language.

Thank you.

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#224048 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

echo test wrote: 
> Then, I want to build a small data center for my company for hosting a web
> app and a mail server. It's the first time I'm going to buy some hardware
> for this. I tried looking for it on the web in order to compare them but it
> seems that hardware vendors never want to talk about Debian on their
> websites.

> So, I want to know if It's a good idea to try using Debian in an enterprise
> context, with hardwares like Dell EMC PowerEdge or Lenovo ThinkCenter which
> seems to never mention that they support Debian. What kind of issues can I
> encounter with such hardwares except simple cases like having to install
> missing drivers with some already available firmwares.
> 
> Can you give me some alternative hardwares in case this idea may take me to
> much time to solve ?

My employer runs more than a hundred Debian servers, mostly on
Supermicro hardware, but some HP as well.

We have very few hardware problems.

> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.

We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
solutions here.

To give an idea of what you might buy:

a firewall/router
a switch
a load-balancer
2 web servers
a database server
a mail server
a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups

All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
Debian servers. 

a firewall/router - nftables. You will want at least 3 ethernet
  ports. CPU is not usually an issue. RAM is never an issue.
  Disk space can be tiny.

a load-balancer - ldirectord, or haproxy, or possibly nginx. You
  won't need much CPU unless you run SSL on nginx. You won't
  need very much RAM, or disk space.

2 web servers - nginx or apache or whatever makes your
  developers happy. These probably need CPU and a fair amount of
  RAM, but not much disk space

a database server - postgresql. This will be your biggest box,
  with large disk arrays and lots of RAM and fast CPUs.

a mail server - postfix. This might need lots of disk, depending
  on what you're doing, but even a terabyte is actually a
  ridiculous amount of mail storage for a small company.

a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups -
  on which you might run your DNS server, NTP server, store
  logs, and run borg or rsync backups of the other machines.

You might consider a git server, too.

-dsr-

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#224053

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On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 2:41 PM Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> echo test wrote:
> > Then, I want to build a small data center for my company for hosting a
> web
> > app and a mail server. It's the first time I'm going to buy some hardware
> > for this. I tried looking for it on the web in order to compare them but
> it
> > seems that hardware vendors never want to talk about Debian on their
> > websites.
>
> > So, I want to know if It's a good idea to try using Debian in an
> enterprise
> > context, with hardwares like Dell EMC PowerEdge or Lenovo ThinkCenter
> which
> > seems to never mention that they support Debian. What kind of issues can
> I
> > encounter with such hardwares except simple cases like having to install
> > missing drivers with some already available firmwares.
> >
> > Can you give me some alternative hardwares in case this idea may take me
> to
> > much time to solve ?
>
> My employer runs more than a hundred Debian servers, mostly on
> Supermicro hardware, but some HP as well.
>
> We have very few hardware problems.
>

Ditto. Ive worked for firms that run hundreds of Debian servers on hardware
and cloud. Both Dell and Lenovo/IBM have supported linux on their hardware
at various times. There is also an IBM Poweredge linux email  list that Im
still on.

> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.
>
> We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
> solutions here.
>

I prefer ZFS but I find that lots of corps prefer mdadm. I really think
that's simply because ZFS came from Sun and they lack Solaris backgrounds.
Now, in a low-RAM environment with simpler disc needs, I would probably go
with mdadm. Anything else I would choose ZFS. It's ability to take care of
itself is surprisingly strong. Less work for me after the set up and
installation.

-dsr-
>
>

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#224158 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On 6/28/20 3:58 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:

> Dan Ritter wrote on 6/26/20 1:41 PM:
>> echo test wrote:
>>
>>> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.
>> We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
>> solutions here.
>>
> Absolutely.
>
> Actually I'd go further and differentiate the two by suggesting that if you
> use ECC memory (which you definitely should for a business server) then ZFS is
> the way to go. If for some reason you can't use ECC memory, then mdadm is
> arguably the thing to use (although there is certainly a valid position that
> says that ZFS is /still/ the right one). At least, that's the way I have my
> systems configured.

Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for 
managing linux raid (md) devices.  And then you need to worry about LVM 
(logical volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.

Miles

>
-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#224164 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

	Not necessarily, and in particular not given his needs, if I recall 
them correctly.  LVM is fine for many purposes, but it is not required, 
nor is a network file system.  My servers at home have no partitions and 
no LVM, and I have the RAID system for the data volume formatted as XFS. 
  I use separate partitioned SSDs for booting and swap.

On 6/28/2020 3:48 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> On 6/28/20 3:58 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:
> 
>> Dan Ritter wrote on 6/26/20 1:41 PM:
>>> echo test wrote:
>>>
>>>> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.
>>> We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
>>> solutions here.
>>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> Actually I'd go further and differentiate the two by suggesting that 
>> if you
>> use ECC memory (which you definitely should for a business server) 
>> then ZFS is
>> the way to go. If for some reason you can't use ECC memory, then mdadm is
>> arguably the thing to use (although there is certainly a valid 
>> position that
>> says that ZFS is /still/ the right one). At least, that's the way I 
>> have my
>> systems configured.
> 
> Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for 
> managing linux raid (md) devices.  And then you need to worry about LVM 
> (logical volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.
> 
> Miles
> 
>>

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#224216 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Actually, he seems to be designing a central database to support 2000 
retail restaurants.

And based on most recent posts, seems to be pre-startup designing a product.

My sense is that what he really needs is somebody on the team who 
understands distributed enterprise architectures.

Miles


On 6/29/20 2:00 AM, Leslie Rhorer wrote:
>     Not necessarily, and in particular not given his needs, if I 
> recall them correctly.  LVM is fine for many purposes, but it is not 
> required, nor is a network file system.  My servers at home have no 
> partitions and no LVM, and I have the RAID system for the data volume 
> formatted as XFS.  I use separate partitioned SSDs for booting and swap.
>
> On 6/28/2020 3:48 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> On 6/28/20 3:58 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:
>>
>>> Dan Ritter wrote on 6/26/20 1:41 PM:
>>>> echo test wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.
>>>> We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
>>>> solutions here.
>>>>
>>> Absolutely.
>>>
>>> Actually I'd go further and differentiate the two by suggesting that 
>>> if you
>>> use ECC memory (which you definitely should for a business server) 
>>> then ZFS is
>>> the way to go. If for some reason you can't use ECC memory, then 
>>> mdadm is
>>> arguably the thing to use (although there is certainly a valid 
>>> position that
>>> says that ZFS is /still/ the right one). At least, that's the way I 
>>> have my
>>> systems configured.
>>
>> Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for 
>> managing linux raid (md) devices.  And then you need to worry about 
>> LVM (logical volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.
>>
>> Miles
>>
>>>
-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#224180 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for managing
> linux raid (md) devices.?? And then you need to worry about LVM (logical
> volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.

Just to be clear, you are being pedantic bordering on wrong here. This
is like saying "a hamburger is not ground beef patties, and then you
need to worry about vegetables and condiments".

mdadm is the administrative interface program for the kernel's md
subsystem. It is used generically as a synonym for "the kernel's
md subsystem" because for most people encountering them, they
are inextricably intertwined. 

The kernel's md subsystem manages RAID 0, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10. It
also has a non-RAID linear mode, a container abstraction, and a
fault-simulation mode.

LVM is completely independent of the md subsystem, and can be
used with or without it. Some people love it. Some avoid it like
the plague -- oops. Some avoid it like rational people avoid the
plague.

Various network file systems are also completely independent of
the md subsystem.

ZFS is an integrated data storage system that presents N
filesystem and partition-equivalent views to the kernel. It is
independent of and an alternative to md and lvm. It offers a
semi-integrated NFS and CIFS export facility. Underneath, it
offers storage options including error-detection, compression, mirroring,
striping, RAID-5 and -6 style parity, read caching and write
caching. Only the error detection is mandatory.

-dsr-

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#224215 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for managing
>> linux raid (md) devices.?? And then you need to worry about LVM (logical
>> volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.
> Just to be clear, you are being pedantic bordering on wrong here. This
> is like saying "a hamburger is not ground beef patties, and then you
> need to worry about vegetables and condiments".
>
> mdadm is the administrative interface program for the kernel's md
> subsystem. It is used generically as a synonym for "the kernel's
> md subsystem" because for most people encountering them, they
> are inextricably intertwined.
>
> The kernel's md subsystem manages RAID 0, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10. It
> also has a non-RAID linear mode, a container abstraction, and a
> fault-simulation mode.

Now who's being pedantic?

And isn't this exactly what I said?  mdadm is an admin program, it 
doesn't perform the raid function.

>
> LVM is completely independent of the md subsystem, and can be
> used with or without it. Some people love it. Some avoid it like
> the plague -- oops. Some avoid it like rational people avoid the
> plague.
>
> Various network file systems are also completely independent of
> the md subsystem.
> ZFS is an integrated data storage system that presents N
> filesystem and partition-equivalent views to the kernel. It is
> independent of and an alternative to md and lvm. It offers a
> semi-integrated NFS and CIFS export facility. Underneath, it
> offers storage options including error-detection, compression, mirroring,
> striping, RAID-5 and -6 style parity, read caching and write
> caching. Only the error detection is mandatory.
>
I'm pretty sure we all know this.  The point is that comparing mdadm to 
ZFS is an apples to oranges comparison.  You don't chose between mdadm 
and ZFS, you chose between ZFS and a stack of software that performs the 
same set of functions.

Miles Fidelman


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#224218 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.

> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
> perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.

-dsr-

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#224236 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>
>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> Now who's being pedantic?
> Precisely.
>
>> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
>> perform the raid function.
> And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.

No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" 
or "md RAID."  mdadm is one of several admin programs available

saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you 
really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert

When you're building systems, details matter.

Miles Fidelman


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#224238 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > Now who's being pedantic?
> > Precisely.
> > 
> > > And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
> > > perform the raid function.
> > And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
> 
> No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
> "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available

What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2. 

> saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you
> really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert
> 
> When you're building systems, details matter.

libvirt. 

-dsr-

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#224248 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>
>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>> Now who's being pedantic?
>>> Precisely.
>>>
>>>> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
>>>> perform the raid function.
>>> And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
>> No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
>> "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
> What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
> say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)
>
> I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.


lvm does its own raid now too...


https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/



>
>> saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you
>> really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert
>>
>> When you're building systems, details matter.
> libvirt.
>
> -dsr-
>
-- 
Born again Christians are a pain because the second birth was

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#224249 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> 
> On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > > > Now who's being pedantic?
> > > > Precisely.
> > > > 
> > > > > And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
> > > > > perform the raid function.
> > > > And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
> > > No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
> > > "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
> > What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
> > say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)
> > 
> > I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.
> 
> lvm does its own raid now too...
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/

... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.


But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
count, it's merely a wrapper.

Reco

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#224254 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
>> On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>> On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>>>> Now who's being pedantic?
>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
>>>>>> perform the raid function.
>>>>> And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
>>>> No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
>>>> "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
>>> What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
>>> say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)
>>>
>>> I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.
>> lvm does its own raid now too...
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/
> ... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
> Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
> RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
> if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
> They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.
>
>
> But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
> interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
> count, it's merely a wrapper.

Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid 
software as administered mdadm.

Which kind of just reiterates what I said earlier - mdadm, as an 
administrative interface, is distinct & separate from the various 
software components that create md raid devices.  In the past, there 
were several other admin programs, but mdadm seems to be the major, 
maintained tool.

The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also 
make use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.

Which does raise an interesting question:  When the Debian installer 
gives the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's 
own config, or use common libraries?  (Kind of arcane, but inquiring 
minds want to know.)

Miles Fidelman


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#224257 — RAID stuff [was Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center]

On 7/1/20 8:15 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
>>> On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>>> On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>>>>> Now who's being pedantic?
>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, 
>>>>>>> it doesn't
>>>>>>> perform the raid function.
>>>>>> And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
>>>>> No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux 
>>>>> Raid" or
>>>>> "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
>>>> What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
>>>> say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)
>>>>
>>>> I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.
>>> lvm does its own raid now too...
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/ 
>>>
>> ... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
>> Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
>> RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
>> if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
>> They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.
>>
>>
>> But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
>> interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
>> count, it's merely a wrapper.
>
> Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid 
> software as administered mdadm.
>
> Which kind of just reiterates what I said earlier - mdadm, as an 
> administrative interface, is distinct & separate from the various 
> software components that create md raid devices.  In the past, there 
> were several other admin programs, but mdadm seems to be the major, 
> maintained tool.
>
> The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also 
> make use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.
>
> Which does raise an interesting question:  When the Debian installer 
> gives the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's 
> own config, or use common libraries?  (Kind of arcane, but inquiring 
> minds want to know.)
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
>
Answered my own question.  The older set of tools were packaged as md 
tools and raid tools.  Meanwhile, configuration of RAID partitions is 
done by partman.



-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#224260 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> > > On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:

[attributions snipped]

> > > > > No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
> > > > > "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
> > > > What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
> > > > say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

> > > lvm does its own raid now too...

Elvis is correct here, but:

> > ... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
> > Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
> > RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
> > if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
> > They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.

Reco is also correct: lvm RAID is not mdadm RAID. And to further
confuse things,  you can build an mdadm RAID and then put LVM on
top of it, but this is not the RAID that LVM manages.

> > But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
> > interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
> > count, it's merely a wrapper.
> 
> Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid software as
> administered mdadm.

It doesn't.

> The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also make
> use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.

It doesn't.

> Which does raise an interesting question:?? When the Debian installer gives
> the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's own config,
> or use common libraries??? (Kind of arcane, but inquiring minds want to
> know.)

debian-installer calls partman; partman has a module called
partman-md; partman-md installs mdadm.udeb, which is a special
packaging of mdadm, produced by the Debian mdadm maintainers.

-dsr-

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#224179 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

D. R. Evans wrote: 
> Dan Ritter wrote on 6/26/20 1:41 PM:
> > echo test wrote:
> > 
> >> Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.
> > 
> > We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
> > solutions here.
> > 
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> Actually I'd go further and differentiate the two by suggesting that if you
> use ECC memory (which you definitely should for a business server) then ZFS is
> the way to go. If for some reason you can't use ECC memory, then mdadm is
> arguably the thing to use (although there is certainly a valid position that
> says that ZFS is /still/ the right one). At least, that's the way I have my
> systems configured.

You're perpetuating a myth here. ZFS does not require ECC, and
there is no additional danger in running ZFS without ECC.

Rather, once ZFS is protecting your data, the next most likely
source of corruption is memory errors, so if you're concerned
about that, you should get ECC.

-dsr-

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#224187 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

...

> To give an idea of what you might buy:
> 
> a firewall/router
> a switch
> a load-balancer
> 2 web servers
> a database server
> a mail server
> a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> 
> All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> Debian servers. 

I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
OPX HCL.

Celejar

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#224188 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Celejar wrote: 
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > 
> > a firewall/router
> > a switch
> > a load-balancer
> > 2 web servers
> > a database server
> > a mail server
> > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > 
> > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > Debian servers. 
> 
> I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
> if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
> are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
> OPX HCL.

Yes, and yes, those are fairly high-end switches compared to
what people tend to use in homes and offices.

In many situations, people don't even need a manageable
switch. Once you start to exceed, say, 40 connections, a managed
switch becomes first useful and then necessity. When you need
multi-chassis failover and intra-switch links of more complexity
than "each desktop gets an 8 port gig-e switch with one used as
an uplink to the office switch", you need high-end switch
features.

-dsr-

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#224194 — Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 11:09:02 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> Celejar wrote: 
> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> > Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > > 
> > > a firewall/router
> > > a switch
> > > a load-balancer
> > > 2 web servers
> > > a database server
> > > a mail server
> > > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > > 
> > > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > > Debian servers. 
> > 
> > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
> > if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
> > are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
> > OPX HCL.
> 
> Yes, and yes, those are fairly high-end switches compared to
> what people tend to use in homes and offices.
> 
> In many situations, people don't even need a manageable
> switch. Once you start to exceed, say, 40 connections, a managed
> switch becomes first useful and then necessity. When you need
> multi-chassis failover and intra-switch links of more complexity
> than "each desktop gets an 8 port gig-e switch with one used as
> an uplink to the office switch", you need high-end switch
> features.


Gotcha. I did realize that those were higher on the food chain when I
saw that they started at 10GB and went up from there ...

Celejar

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