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KDE run Dolphin as root?

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  KDE run Dolphin as root? Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2020-06-05 23:10 +0200
    Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 23:30 +0200
      Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Paul Johnson <baloo@ursamundi.org> - 2020-06-06 23:40 +0200
        Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-07 00:40 +0200
          Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Keith bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2020-06-07 03:10 +0200
            Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-07 21:30 +0200
              Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-08 08:10 +0200
                Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-06-08 13:40 +0200
                  Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 00:00 +0200
                    Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 08:40 +0200
                    Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-10 10:20 +0200
                      Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2020-06-14 22:30 +0200
                        Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? "Gary L. Roach" <garyroach719.lists@gmail.com> - 2020-06-15 21:50 +0200
                          Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-15 22:10 +0200
                            Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-15 22:20 +0200
                              Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Keith bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2020-06-16 01:00 +0200
                                Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-16 09:30 +0200
                            Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? "Gary L. Roach" <garyroach719.lists@gmail.com> - 2020-06-17 01:40 +0200
                              Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? didier.gaumet@gmail.com - 2020-06-17 10:40 +0200
                          Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-16 09:30 +0200
                            Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? "Gary L. Roach" <garyroach719.lists@gmail.com> - 2020-06-17 02:00 +0200
                              Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? didier.gaumet@gmail.com - 2020-06-17 10:30 +0200
                              Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-17 11:00 +0200
                                Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-19 05:00 +0200
                                  Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-19 10:00 +0200
                                    Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-20 16:50 +0200
                          Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-16 09:30 +0200
      Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-07 00:20 +0200
    Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2020-06-07 03:20 +0200
      Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2020-06-07 05:00 +0200
        Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2020-06-07 06:20 +0200
        Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? Keith bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2020-06-07 07:20 +0200
      Re: KDE run Dolphin as root? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-07 06:50 +0200

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#223567

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On 6/16/20 12:26 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 09:21:24AM +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
>> On 15.06.20 21:47, Gary L. Roach wrote:
>>> Someone in the Debian hierarchy decided that root Dolphin was too
>>> much of a security risk. So the problem has propagated to at least
>>> a half dozen other distros (Ubuntu,Kubuntu, Mint) to name a
>>> couple.
>> To my knowledge, this is not true!
> You're too polite ;-D
>
> To my perception, this is borderline... conspiracy theory.
>
> Cheers
> -- t

Miacopa

I think I was venting. I am so frustrated with this whole Dolphin mess 
that I may have gone overboard. Dolphin is probably the most used 
package on my systems. I do a lot of compiling from source code and 
complicated computer modeling and the frustration this has caused is 
very very unfortunate. *So who is responsible for messing around with my 
head*. My last post did include an apology  to anyone I maligned.

Gary R

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#223573

(Apologies if this link have been given before) 

You will find a thread there on a KDE forum detailing why running Dolphin as root is discouraged and how to bypass this measure:
 https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?t=141836

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#223576

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On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 04:51:39PM -0700, Gary L. Roach wrote:

[...]

> Miacopa

All is well, and sorry if my tone was... rough.

> I think I was venting. I am so frustrated with this whole Dolphin
> mess that I may have gone overboard [...]

I feel your pain. Not from KDE land, but I think it's a basic problem.

We are being torn apart by the attempt to democratize free software
(which is something we *must* attempt!).

Making things user friendly (something we *gotta* do) means sometimes
taking decisions for the user. Where's the limit? Where's too much
(authoritarian software)? Where's too litle (RTFM software)? You'll
be wrong most of the time for some users, and some of the time for
most users.

As an example: yesterday, I got a laptop from a customer. Doesn't
boot. Thinkpad something something, with Ubuntu on it. Now I think
it's so awesome that a psychotherapist runs Ubuntu for his business.
He gets a special price.

What was the problem? Basically a b0rked kernel upgrade[1], where
the corresponding Intel CPU firmware was missing. The two youngest
kernels in the Grub menu didn't boot, the third oldest did (though
I found about that in a somewhat roundabout way: it seems at least
80% of our profession consists of barking up the wrong tree, but
I disgress).

Back to our topic: this customer has auto-upgrade running. While
his box was up and running, it did two (!) kernel updates without
the owner even noticing[2]. This is an incredible luxury, but in
this case the effect was that after the next shutdown the box didn't
boot, with no obvious reason for him.

What is "the right" degree of automation? Finding an adequate answer
to this will be our job for the next ~20 years. I don't expect a
scalar number as answer :-)

Cheers

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/intel-microcode/+bug/1882890
[2] "But there was this notification saying the box needs a reboot, blah,
   blah" you'll say. Yeah, right.

-- tomás

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#223644

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On Mi, 17 iun 20, 10:55:55, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> Making things user friendly (something we *gotta* do) means sometimes
> taking decisions for the user. Where's the limit? Where's too much
> (authoritarian software)? Where's too litle (RTFM software)? You'll
> be wrong most of the time for some users, and some of the time for
> most users.

In my opinion Chrome OS (and I assume Chromium OS as well) gets many 
things right, Debian could learn a lot from it.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#223647

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On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 05:54:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 17 iun 20, 10:55:55, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > Making things user friendly (something we *gotta* do) means sometimes
> > taking decisions for the user. Where's the limit? Where's too much
> > (authoritarian software)? Where's too litle (RTFM software)? You'll
> > be wrong most of the time for some users, and some of the time for
> > most users.
> 
> In my opinion Chrome OS (and I assume Chromium OS as well) gets many 
> things right, Debian could learn a lot from it.

That's the point. In Sally's opinion it's Mac. In Betty's, it's Windows
(but not after '95). In Sue's, OTOH...

(BTW. for all I've seen of Chrome OS, I'd either run away screaming or
scrub it from the computer, depending on my momentary mood).

How to cater to all of those? And, more importantly: how to enable (or
better: seduce) all of those to tinker away, if they wish to do so?

After all, that last point is the "mission statement" of free software.
There was a meme around one of the first free smartphones, the OpenMoko:

  "WARRANTY VOID WHEN NOT OPENED" [1] [2]

I think in these days, where the attacks on freedom come sometimes in
the guise of convenience rather than constraint (in some privileged
parts of the world, at least!), this point becomes ever more important.

Cheers

[1] https://www.vanille.de/blog/openmoko-10-years-after-mickeys-story/
[2] http://fidzu.com/fidzu/openmoko

-- tomás

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#223732

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On Vi, 19 iun 20, 09:58:40, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 05:54:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 10:55:55, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > 
> > > Making things user friendly (something we *gotta* do) means sometimes
> > > taking decisions for the user. Where's the limit? Where's too much
> > > (authoritarian software)? Where's too litle (RTFM software)? You'll
> > > be wrong most of the time for some users, and some of the time for
> > > most users.
> > 
> > In my opinion Chrome OS (and I assume Chromium OS as well) gets many 
> > things right, Debian could learn a lot from it.
> 
> That's the point. In Sally's opinion it's Mac. In Betty's, it's Windows
> (but not after '95). In Sue's, OTOH...
> 
> (BTW. for all I've seen of Chrome OS, I'd either run away screaming or
> scrub it from the computer, depending on my momentary mood).

Chrome OS itself is definitely not something for the typical debian-user 
subscriber, as it is "just enough OS to run Chrome" ;)

What would be interesting to at least consider for Debian (in my, not so 
humble, opinion):


By default it is using secured boot (signed kernel, etc.) with the user 
data partition fully encrypted and no root access whatsoever. It can be 
switched to "developer mode" with full root access by a special 
(documented) boot procedure, which involves full erasure of all user 
data (for privacy reasons).


Robust and user friendly auto-update mechanism. There is just one 
notification informing you to reboot to upgrade. On the next reboot you 
are running the upgrade, not additional waiting time involved.

As far as I know it uses two "boot" (system?) partitions. The upgrade is 
written to the "other" partition and marked to be booted from next time.  
The "current" partition is kept as backup with an automatic fall-back 
mechanism (never seen it trigger as far as I could tell).

During the lifetime of my Acer Chromebook R13 I've had countless 
updates, including a "firmware" upgrade (u-boot?) and a filesystem 
change (to ext4 I think, don't recall what it had before), all without a 
glitch. These did involve some (one?) additional confirmation and the 
filesystem change did take a while (unavoidable).

For a while I was also running the "beta" channel, similar to Debian's 
testing, no issues with the upgrades.


Too many apps installed? Some things appear to now work properly? Are 
you selling / giving away the Chromebook? No problem. Just use 
"Powerwash" (something like a "factory reset") to restore the OS to its 
basic state (with all updates applied) and erase all user data.

Sounds quite similar to what was recently discussed here on the list.


As I wrote above, it's not for the typical debian-user subscriber. It is 
however a really good option for the kind of users that spend 95% of the 
time in a browser. The other 5% are most likely covered by Chrome and 
Android Apps, if the user is willing to ignore / doesn't care about the 
privacy issues.

Building something similar with just Debian is mostly doable, though by 
far not easy.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#223528

On 15.06.20 21:47, Gary L. Roach wrote:
> Someone in the Debian hierarchy decided that root Dolphin was too much 
> of a security risk. So the problem has propagated to at least a half 
> dozen other distros (Ubuntu,Kubuntu, Mint) to name a couple.

To my knowledge, this is not true!
It is the Dolphin upstream team which implements the blocking mechanism. 
In some of the many threads on this issue flooding the internet there 
are given instructions how to compile your personal version of Dolphin 
after having changed (removed) the respective code in the Dolphin source 
code, in order to finally make it run as user root again.

Best regards, Marco.

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#223143

On 06.06.20 23:20, Default User wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 16:55 Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com 
> <mailto:hunguponcontent@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi, all.
> 
>     As an experiment, I just installed Debian 10.4 Stable on a spare
>     drive, and installed kde on it.
> 
>     I have not tried kde in many years, so am not really familiar with
>     it. Perhaps I am overlooking something obvious, but I can not seem
>     to run Dolphin or Konqueror as root.
> 
>     Searching online, I was astounded to see many references to this
>     problem, saying that this is not a bug, but a feature - that kde
>     developers are deliberately working to prevent users from using some
>     programs, including Dolphin as root, as a "security measure".
> 
>     So, can the current version of Dolphin in Debian Stable be run as
>     root (without re-compiling, etc)?
> 
>     And, if not, how (and why) would anyone use kde at all?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So . . .  no one here using kde?
> Hmmm . . .
> 
> : )
> 


To my knowledge it for years is not possible to run Dolphin in KDE with 
root permissions, so also not in Buster. I never tried to use Dolphin 
outside of KDE and therefore cannot state on that situation.

IMHO, the nice thing of KDE over GNOME is that in KDE usually I am 
offered high control on the appearance and interactive control of my 
desktop. GNOME instead appears to copy an Android cellphone, not only 
that its appearance remind on it but also that you either like it or you 
have to make yourself to accept it as it is. Changes on some of its 
desktop elements have been quite restricted when I seriously would have 
needed a change. This was what forced me to change. On my quite old 
hardware I then went for LXQt until I noticed that running it with kwin 
was greatest. Well, anyway running kwin I then tried out KDE and found 
that its footprint is not significant higher than the one of LXQt and 
that its responsiveness is excellent if staying with KDE Plasma and a 
selection of helpful tools but sparing out its akonadi dependent apps. 
Actually, both LXQt and KDE fro me run much better than GNOME on my 
hardware - and today I am a quite satisfied KDE user.
But concerning Dolphin and the infantilizing amputation to not allow it 
to run with root permissions, here KDE completely fails to keep up with 
its fame.

Sorry for the bad news. Marco.

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#223148

Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi, all.
>
> As an experiment, I just installed Debian 10.4 Stable on a spare drive, and
> installed kde on it.
>
> I have not tried kde in many years, so am not really familiar with it.
> Perhaps I am overlooking something obvious, but I can not seem to run
> Dolphin or Konqueror as root.
>
> Searching online, I was astounded to see many references to this problem,
> saying that this is not a bug, but a feature - that kde developers are
> deliberately working to prevent users from using some programs, including
> Dolphin as root, as a "security measure".
>
> So, can the current version of Dolphin in Debian Stable be run as root
> (without re-compiling, etc)?
>

Dolphin is just checking the SUDO_USER environment variable.  Just unset
the variable before starting dolphin.  Ref:
https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=Executing+Dolphin+with+sudo+is+not+possible+due+to+unfixable+security+vulnerabilities&literal=1

I have no idea what the unfixable security vulnerabilities are.

> And, if not, how (and why) would anyone use kde at all?

You might be overestimating the number of people who need to do file
management as root with a graphical tool.  I, for one, use plasma as my
primary desktop environment, but almost all file management activity is
through emacs (with tramp for root stuff), or just a shell.  Until I saw
your post, I had no idea dolphin would refuse to run as root.

-- 
regards,
kushal

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#223150

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On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 21:19 Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> wrote:

> Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > As an experiment, I just installed Debian 10.4 Stable on a spare drive,
> and
> > installed kde on it.
> >
> > I have not tried kde in many years, so am not really familiar with it.
> > Perhaps I am overlooking something obvious, but I can not seem to run
> > Dolphin or Konqueror as root.
> >
> > Searching online, I was astounded to see many references to this problem,
> > saying that this is not a bug, but a feature - that kde developers are
> > deliberately working to prevent users from using some programs, including
> > Dolphin as root, as a "security measure".
> >
> > So, can the current version of Dolphin in Debian Stable be run as root
> > (without re-compiling, etc)?
> >
>
> Dolphin is just checking the SUDO_USER environment variable.  Just unset
> the variable before starting dolphin.  Ref:
>
> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=Executing+Dolphin+with+sudo+is+not+possible+due+to+unfixable+security+vulnerabilities&literal=1
>
> I have no idea what the unfixable security vulnerabilities are.
>
> > And, if not, how (and why) would anyone use kde at all?
>
> You might be overestimating the number of people who need to do file
> management as root with a graphical tool.  I, for one, use plasma as my
> primary desktop environment, but almost all file management activity is
> through emacs (with tramp for root stuff), or just a shell.  Until I saw
> your post, I had no idea dolphin would refuse to run as root.
>
> --
> regards,
> kushal
>




First, to Keith:

Yes, I vaguely remember that thread.  I did briefly look through the list
archive but could not find it.

Perhaps there is a search function for the list archive, but I am unaware
of it.


Second, to Kushal:

I did look at the code you referenced. Interesting. But I am not a
programmer.

I did try to under the SUDO_USER environment variable as you suggested.
Maybe I didn't do it correctly, but it did not resolve the problem. Dolphin
refuses to run with elevated privileges.

Anyway, for now, I can use Midnight Commander, either as sudo or as root,
to do file management of root folders and files. But it is somewhat
"clunky" to do so.

And just to note: I do a lot of management of files and directories
requiring root privileges.

So I guess I just got spoiled, using the nemo file manager in Cinnamon.
Just right click the Cinnamon desktop, select "Open as root", then use nemo
with temporarily elevated privileges.  Then close nemo, and I am back to
the desktop as a regular user again. Easy.

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#223152

Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 21:19 Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> wrote:
>
>> Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Hi, all.
>> >
>> > As an experiment, I just installed Debian 10.4 Stable on a spare drive,
>> and
>> > installed kde on it.
>> >
>> > I have not tried kde in many years, so am not really familiar with it.
>> > Perhaps I am overlooking something obvious, but I can not seem to run
>> > Dolphin or Konqueror as root.
>> >
>> > Searching online, I was astounded to see many references to this problem,
>> > saying that this is not a bug, but a feature - that kde developers are
>> > deliberately working to prevent users from using some programs, including
>> > Dolphin as root, as a "security measure".
>> >
>> > So, can the current version of Dolphin in Debian Stable be run as root
>> > (without re-compiling, etc)?
>> >
>>
>> Dolphin is just checking the SUDO_USER environment variable.  Just unset
>> the variable before starting dolphin.  Ref:
>>
>> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=Executing+Dolphin+with+sudo+is+not+possible+due+to+unfixable+security+vulnerabilities&literal=1
>>
>> I have no idea what the unfixable security vulnerabilities are.
>>
>> > And, if not, how (and why) would anyone use kde at all?
>>
>> You might be overestimating the number of people who need to do file
>> management as root with a graphical tool.  I, for one, use plasma as my
>> primary desktop environment, but almost all file management activity is
>> through emacs (with tramp for root stuff), or just a shell.  Until I saw
>> your post, I had no idea dolphin would refuse to run as root.
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> kushal
>>
>
>
>
>
> First, to Keith:
>
> Yes, I vaguely remember that thread.  I did briefly look through the list
> archive but could not find it.
>
> Perhaps there is a search function for the list archive, but I am unaware
> of it.
>
>
> Second, to Kushal:
>
> I did look at the code you referenced. Interesting. But I am not a
> programmer.
>
> I did try to under the SUDO_USER environment variable as you suggested.
> Maybe I didn't do it correctly, but it did not resolve the problem. Dolphin
> refuses to run with elevated privileges.
>

Running

  sudo sh -c 'unset SUDO_USER; KDE_FULL_SESSION=true dolphin'

from a shell gets a dolphin window.

There is some advice at
https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=223&t=161021#p425888 that can
arrange things so that you get an action on the right-click context
menu.

> Anyway, for now, I can use Midnight Commander, either as sudo or as root,
> to do file management of root folders and files. But it is somewhat
> "clunky" to do so.
>
> And just to note: I do a lot of management of files and directories
> requiring root privileges.
>
> So I guess I just got spoiled, using the nemo file manager in Cinnamon.
> Just right click the Cinnamon desktop, select "Open as root", then use nemo
> with temporarily elevated privileges.  Then close nemo, and I am back to
> the desktop as a regular user again. Easy.

Sounds like you have your needs properly met with cinnamon and nemo, and
they seem to be available in debian.  Is there a particular reason you
need to solve this problem with dolphin?  I assume you could have just
installed nemo and used it even while using the plasma shell as the
desktop.

-- 
regards,
kushal

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#223155

On 7/6/20 12:56 pm, Default User wrote:
> 
> So I guess I just got spoiled, using the nemo file manager in Cinnamon. 
> Just right click the Cinnamon desktop, select "Open as root", then use 
> nemo with temporarily elevated privileges.  Then close nemo, and I am 
> back to the desktop as a regular user again. Easy.
> 
> 

Have you tried nemo (cinnamon's file mgr) in KDE?  It'll likely bring in 
a bit of gtk stuff, but that shouldn't hurt anything.

-- 

Keith Bainbridge

keithrbau@gmail.com

0447 667468

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#223153

On Sat 06 Jun 2020 at 18:10:10 (-0700), Kushal Kumaran wrote:
> Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > As an experiment, I just installed Debian 10.4 Stable on a spare drive, and
> > installed kde on it.
> >
> > I have not tried kde in many years, so am not really familiar with it.
> > Perhaps I am overlooking something obvious, but I can not seem to run
> > Dolphin or Konqueror as root.
> >
> > Searching online, I was astounded to see many references to this problem,
> > saying that this is not a bug, but a feature - that kde developers are
> > deliberately working to prevent users from using some programs, including
> > Dolphin as root, as a "security measure".

> I have no idea what the unfixable security vulnerabilities are.

Perhaps the attack claimed here will answer that:

https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2017/02/editing-files-as-root/

> You might be overestimating the number of people who need to do file
> management as root with a graphical tool.

Yes, I've certainly never done that. Even using mc requires some care
in selecting its configuration options.

Cheers,
David.

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