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Return a Debian system to a pristine state

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  Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-27 10:50 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-27 15:50 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:20 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 13:50 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 15:00 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 15:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:20 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 14:50 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:00 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:10 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-29 09:50 +0200
                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 16:40 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-29 16:50 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-29 17:40 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-30 06:00 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 07:10 +0200
                          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 11:30 +0200
                            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 14:40 +0200
                              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 19:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-29 21:50 +0200
                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-29 22:30 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 05:10 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-30 20:00 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:10 +0200
                          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:30 +0200
                            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-31 11:30 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-05-31 13:40 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 14:40 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 15:10 +0200
                          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 17:00 +0200
                            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-31 17:40 +0200
                              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 21:00 +0200
                            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 19:50 +0200
                              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 22:00 +0200
                                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 23:40 +0200
                              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
                                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-06-04 22:50 +0200
                                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-05 17:40 +0200
                                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-05 18:10 +0200
                                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-06-06 12:30 +0200
                                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-06 13:00 +0200
                                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-07 14:00 +0200
                                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:30 +0200
                                  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200
                                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-09 08:10 +0200
                                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:30 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-02 00:40 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 11:50 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-06-04 10:50 +0200
                          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-04 21:20 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
                    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-01 20:30 +0200
                      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-02 06:10 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-02 07:30 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-02 14:40 +0200
                        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-02 17:10 +0200
                      Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return  a Debian system to a pristine state] davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2020-07-05 22:20 +0200
                        Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return a  Debian system to a pristine state] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-05 23:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-05-27 16:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-27 16:30 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 08:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:30 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-05-27 20:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-05-28 11:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 11:30 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:20 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-04 21:50 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-05 13:10 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200

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#222750 — Return a Debian system to a pristine state

Dear Colleagues,

A production system, especially a desktop system, tends to accumulate
unnecessary packages. Users install software for testing, then forget
about it, or it falls into disuse...

In FreeBSD, you can always run "pkg delete -a" and return to the
post-install state (well, almost). This command will remove all the
third-party packages added to the base system after installation
(modified files under /usr/local/ will remain).

What's the procedure for Debian? 

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222753

Victor Sudakov wrote: 
> A production system, especially a desktop system, tends to accumulate
> unnecessary packages. Users install software for testing, then forget
> about it, or it falls into disuse...
> 
> In FreeBSD, you can always run "pkg delete -a" and return to the
> post-install state (well, almost). This command will remove all the
> third-party packages added to the base system after installation
> (modified files under /usr/local/ will remain).
> 
> What's the procedure for Debian? 

There is no pristine state for Debian. Choices made during
installation affect what the first boot experience looks like.

apt remove  will uninstall a package.

apt purge will uninstall a package and try to remove any
configuration it has left behind.

dpkg -S  will tell you what package a file belongs
to.

apt-cache rdepends  will tell you what other packages depend on
an installed package.

/var/lib/apt/lists/* has package information; if you grep for
Priority: required  you will find packages that *must* be
installed. The ranking is:

 required > important > standard > optional > extra



-dsr-

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#222777

Dan Ritter wrote:
> Victor Sudakov wrote: 
> > A production system, especially a desktop system, tends to accumulate
> > unnecessary packages. Users install software for testing, then forget
> > about it, or it falls into disuse...
> > 
> > In FreeBSD, you can always run "pkg delete -a" and return to the
> > post-install state (well, almost). This command will remove all the
> > third-party packages added to the base system after installation
> > (modified files under /usr/local/ will remain).
> > 
> > What's the procedure for Debian? 
> 
> There is no pristine state for Debian. 

There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of packages
at the moment of the first boot.

> Choices made during
> installation affect what the first boot experience looks like.

The first boot experience is what can be called a pristine state. If
something or someone saved that initial list of packages, it could be
called "the pristine state."

For the future, I'll always save the output of "dpkg -l" after the first
boot for later comparison, but I did not expect it was not being done
somewhere automatically already.

[dd]

> 
> /var/lib/apt/lists/* has package information; if you grep for
> Priority: required  you will find packages that *must* be
> installed. The ranking is:
> 
>  required > important > standard > optional > extra

This is interesting. This job of finding "extra" packages installed
since the first boot can probably be done by the user, but I expected
some ready solution to exist.

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222794

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:15:41PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> Dan Ritter wrote:
> > There is no pristine state for Debian. 
> 
> There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of packages
> at the moment of the first boot.

But that set is NOT the same for everyone.  The installer selects
some based on the hardware that it discovers during the installation,
and you select some in the task selection menu.  Also, there are several
different installer images, including some that are meant to be used as
live, and some that have non-free firmware packages.

If *you*, the one person on the planet who wants this, would like to
achieve your goal, what you can do is get a snapshot of *your* packages
immediately after the installation, by running

dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages

Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.

If on the other hand your real goal is not to achieve package reduction,
but instead to *complain* about Debian, well, you've already achieved
it.

If your real goal is not just to complain about Debian, but rather,
to make Debian *change* something arbitrary, just so that you feel
powerful, well, good luck with that.

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#222795

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2020-05-28 at 07:40, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:15:41PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> 
>> Dan Ritter wrote:
>> 
>>> There is no pristine state for Debian.
>> 
>> There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of
>> packages at the moment of the first boot.
> 
> But that set is NOT the same for everyone.  The installer selects
> some based on the hardware that it discovers during the
> installation, and you select some in the task selection menu.  Also,
> there are several different installer images, including some that are
> meant to be used as live, and some that have non-free firmware
> packages.

As you yourself note, that can be addressed by defining the "pristine
state" package set at install time - either when and as the packages
that are to be installed are selected, or immediately after the
installation has completed - instead of trying to pre-define it before
the install begins.

> If *you*, the one person on the planet who wants this,

Clearly that's not true, or there wouldn't be a user base for the way
FreeBSD does things which led him to have the expectation that this
would be possible.

> would like to achieve your goal, what you can do is get a snapshot of
> *your* packages immediately after the installation, by running
> 
> dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> 
> Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.

The suggestion of 'debfoster', from elsewhere in the thread, seems
reasonable as well. Although that would then mean that debfoster itself
would then be included in the list of base packages, which isn't
necessarily desirable and isn't technically accurate.

> If on the other hand your real goal is not to achieve package
> reduction, but instead to *complain* about Debian, well, you've
> already achieved it.
> 
> If your real goal is not just to complain about Debian, but rather,
> to make Debian *change* something arbitrary, just so that you feel
> powerful, well, good luck with that.

It seems to me that his goal (aside from finding a way to do the "revert
to pristine state" in his own case) is to persuade people that Debian
should implement, and in fact if possible should already have
implemented, a mechanism to make such a pristine-state reversion
possible in all cases - rather than having it be possible only if the
user took a particular action, which is not clearly documented or
suggested for that point, immediately after install.

While I'm not particularly happy with the tone of his inquiries either,
and I doubt that I would ever use such a mechanism if it existed, the
basic idea doesn't seem like a particularly unreasonable one. I think
your own pushback against it probably goes too far in its own right.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#222802

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 08:00:09AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> Clearly that's not true, or there wouldn't be a user base for the way
> FreeBSD does things which led him to have the expectation that this
> would be possible.

FreeBSD didn't separate packages from the base system just so a
minuscule number of users could "revert to pristine state", because
who the hell wants to do that?  Almost nobody.

The ability to remove all packages is simply a side effect of the
design decision to have a small, centrally controlled, self-consistent
base system.  Everything else is a "package" -- an add-on that
is not part of the base system, and may not have the same level of
quality control and integration that the base system has.

Debian doesn't work this way.  The entire design is different.

In Debian, every single thing is a "package",[1] but that doesn't
necessarily mean "lower quality optional add-on thing that you can and
should chuck into /dev/null at the first opportunity", which is what it
means in BSD.

Debian has no central "base system".  It has only packages -- a package
for the C library (libc6), a package for the init system (systemd), a
package for the basic scripting shell (dash), and so on.  Under BSD,
all of these things would be part of the base system, and they would all
be maintained by the same people.  In Debian, each of them is maintained
by a different person, or different group of people.  They're not always
in sync with each other, they way they are in BSD.

There is simply no reasonable way to define what set of packages would
constitute a "pristine system" in Debian.  The phrase has no meaning.

A handful of BSD users wishing that it had meaning doesn't make it so.

[1] OK, to be fair, there is a magic tarball that lays out the file
system during installation, before any packages can be installed.
So, yes, there are a tiny handful of files that magically appear from
the void during installation, that are not part of any package.  But
that's not a "base system" either.

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#222803

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On 2020-05-28 at 08:51, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> There is simply no reasonable way to define what set of packages
> would constitute a "pristine system" in Debian.  The phrase has no
> meaning.

Yes, there is:

"The set of packages which was present immediately after completion of
the initial installation process."

This will vary between computers, and indeed may vary between successive
installs on the same computer, depending on the options chosen during
the install process - but that doesn't make it any less reasonable of a
definition for any given computer.

At least two ways of identifying this set and making it possible to
revert to that set have been suggested already in this thread, one of
them by you.

Why would the idea of asking for this to be handled automatically - so
that the person doing a new install doesn't need to already be familiar
with how to cause it to happen, despite not having necessarily had the
experience needed to gain that familiarity - be such an unreasonable one
that you push back against it in such harsh terms?

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#222812

The Wanderer wrote:

[dd]

> 
> The suggestion of 'debfoster', from elsewhere in the thread, seems
> reasonable as well. Although that would then mean that debfoster itself
> would then be included in the list of base packages, which isn't
> necessarily desirable and isn't technically accurate.

Of course it's not necessary. Once I know that such a utility exists, I
have no problem adding it to the list of packages I install first on any
new system (among rsync, lsof, mtree-netbsd, netcat, screen, sockstat,
csearch and many others). 

> 
> > If on the other hand your real goal is not to achieve package
> > reduction, but instead to *complain* about Debian, well, you've
> > already achieved it.
> > 
> > If your real goal is not just to complain about Debian, but rather,
> > to make Debian *change* something arbitrary, just so that you feel
> > powerful, well, good luck with that.
> 
> It seems to me that his goal (aside from finding a way to do the "revert
> to pristine state" in his own case) is to persuade people that Debian
> should implement, and in fact if possible should already have
> implemented, 

Yes, I kind of expected that this problem had been solved and only my
lack of knowledge prevents me from using a well-known solution.

> a mechanism to make such a pristine-state reversion
> possible in all cases - rather than having it be possible only if the
> user took a particular action, which is not clearly documented or
> suggested for that point, immediately after install.

It is interesting that debfoster "maintains a list of installed packages
that were explicitly requested rather than installed as a dependency." 

As a result, its list of unnecessary packages is rather short even long
after the installation. Which is good of course.

> 
> While I'm not particularly happy with the tone of his inquiries either,

Sorry if I sounded harsh, this was not my intention (unless I was
already facing an unjustifiedly hostile attitude from a couple of
people).

> and I doubt that I would ever use such a mechanism if it existed, the
> basic idea doesn't seem like a particularly unreasonable one. I think
> your own pushback against it probably goes too far in its own right.


-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222800

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, May 28, 2020, 7:41 AM Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:15:41PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > There is no pristine state for Debian.
> >
> > There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of packages
> > at the moment of the first boot.
>
> But that set is NOT the same for everyone.  The installer selects
> some based on the hardware that it discovers during the installation,
> and you select some in the task selection menu.  Also, there are several
> different installer images, including some that are meant to be used as
> live, and some that have non-free firmware packages.
>
> If *you*, the one person on the planet who wants this, would like to
> achieve your goal, what you can do is get a snapshot of *your* packages
> immediately after the installation, by running
>
> dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
>
> Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.
>

My approach to something similar (in my case, when Installation of the
packages I want are complete, and the first "apt-get upgrade" is finished),
is to do a clean Shutdown, boot from a Rescue CD (or USB), and issue a "tar
cvf" on the Mounted Directory.

Why "tar and feather" from another Linux, instead of the running one?  To
avoid the "Virtual File Systems", such as, for example, /proc.

<snip complaining about complaining>

Good luck!

Kenneth Parker

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#222804

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:15:41PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > There is no pristine state for Debian. 
> > 
> > There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of packages
> > at the moment of the first boot.
> 
> But that set is NOT the same for everyone.  The installer selects
> some based on the hardware that it discovers during the installation,

I never said this pristine state should be the same for everyone. It is
not required. Even FreeBSD's "base system" is not the same for everyone
because installing some parts thereof is optional (sources, lib32 etc).
And if you compile the base system from source, there are literally
dozens of options not to compile this or that.

What is searched for in Debian is the ability to remove the bloatware
which was not present at the time of installation.

> and you select some in the task selection menu.  Also, there are several
> different installer images, including some that are meant to be used as
> live, and some that have non-free firmware packages.
> 
> If *you*, the one person on the planet who wants this, would like to
> achieve your goal, what you can do is get a snapshot of *your* packages
> immediately after the installation, by running
> 
> dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> 
> Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.

Out of itself, this file will not allow me anything. But Charles Curley
has named the debfoster utility which seems to do the closest thing to
what I wanted to achieve. 

Thanks again to Charles and if there are no other propositions, I think
we can close this thread.

> 
> If on the other hand your real goal is not to achieve package reduction,
> but instead to *complain* about Debian, well, you've already achieved
> it.
> 
> If your real goal is not just to complain about Debian, but rather,
> to make Debian *change* something arbitrary, just so that you feel
> powerful, well, good luck with that.

Let these remarks remain on your conscience.
> 

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222806

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 08:50:44PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> What is searched for in Debian is the ability to remove the bloatware
> which was not present at the time of installation.

But... but... it's precisely DURING the installation that most of the
crappy "bloatware" GETS ONTO THE SYSTEM!

How meny people do you think install GNOME or KDE or XFCE separately
after the install, as opposed to ACCEPTING A DEFAULT during the install?

> > dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> > 
> > Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> > state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.
> 
> Out of itself, this file will not allow me anything. But Charles Curley
> has named the debfoster utility which seems to do the closest thing to
> what I wanted to achieve. 

What?!

It does PRECISELY WHAT YOU STATED you wanted to do!

> Thanks again to Charles and if there are no other propositions, I think
> we can close this thread.

Because you cannot be reasoned with?  Sure, yes, OK, that is definitely
a reason for me to stop talking to you.

I stand by everything I've said here.  You have a secret agenda, and
your stated goal, which I told you how to accomplish, is not your
actual goal.  That's why you rejected the solution you were given.

Call me bitchy or whatever you want, but I can SENSE this bullshit from
a mile away, and this is why I react the way I do.

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#222814

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 08:50:44PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > What is searched for in Debian is the ability to remove the bloatware
> > which was not present at the time of installation.
> 
> But... but... it's precisely DURING the installation that most of the
> crappy "bloatware" GETS ONTO THE SYSTEM!

What?!

> 
> How meny people do you think install GNOME or KDE or XFCE separately
> after the install, as opposed to ACCEPTING A DEFAULT during the install?

The way you put it, those GNOME or KDE or XFCE would be part of the
"pristine system" and I'm fine with it.

But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
developer environments separately after the install, and then regret it
and wish to get rid of them cleanly.

> 
> > > dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> > > 
> > > Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> > > state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.
> > 
> > Out of itself, this file will not allow me anything. But Charles Curley
> > has named the debfoster utility which seems to do the closest thing to
> > what I wanted to achieve. 
> 
> What?!
> 
> It does PRECISELY WHAT YOU STATED you wanted to do!

Well, I wanted a degree of automation, not just a 
"dpkg --get-selections | diff /root/initial-packages -" for visual
analysis and manual removal.

> 
> > Thanks again to Charles and if there are no other propositions, I think
> > we can close this thread.
> 
> Because you cannot be reasoned with?  Sure, yes, OK, that is definitely
> a reason for me to stop talking to you.
> 
> I stand by everything I've said here.  You have a secret agenda, and
> your stated goal, which I told you how to accomplish, is not your
> actual goal. 

I like conspiracy theories too.

> That's why you rejected the solution you were given.

I did not reject the solution I was given. I thanked Charles Curley for
it, I think, at least twice.

> 
> Call me bitchy or whatever you want, but I can SENSE this bullshit from
> a mile away, and this is why I react the way I do.

You react the way you do because you turned out not flexible enough to
understand the problem and not knowledgeable enough to suggest a solution,
which other people did.


-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222818

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:34:51PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > > > dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> > > > 
> > > > Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> > > > state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.
> > > 
> > > Out of itself, this file will not allow me anything. But Charles Curley
> > > has named the debfoster utility which seems to do the closest thing to
> > > what I wanted to achieve. 
> > 
> > What?!
> > 
> > It does PRECISELY WHAT YOU STATED you wanted to do!
> 
> Well, I wanted a degree of automation, not just a 
> "dpkg --get-selections | diff /root/initial-packages -" for visual
> analysis and manual removal.

The reverse of dpkg --get-selections is dpkg --set-selections, which
you run using the saved file as input instead of output.  Then you
follow this with something like "apt-get dselect-upgrade" to install
the packages necessary to make the new system match the old system.

Now, I've never used this to *remove* packages -- only to install
new packages after a (re)install.  I'm not sure how it handles removal
of packages.  Maybe there's an additional step required.  Or maybe it
just works as is.

The fact that you just ASSUMED that it would require "manual removal"
instead of thinking, "Hey, what is this --get-selections thing, maybe
I should read some documentation about it, or ask more questions
about it", is part of the problem here.

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#222882

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:34:51PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > > > > dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> > > > > state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.
> > > > 
> > > > Out of itself, this file will not allow me anything. But Charles Curley
> > > > has named the debfoster utility which seems to do the closest thing to
> > > > what I wanted to achieve. 
> > > 
> > > What?!
> > > 
> > > It does PRECISELY WHAT YOU STATED you wanted to do!
> > 
> > Well, I wanted a degree of automation, not just a 
> > "dpkg --get-selections | diff /root/initial-packages -" for visual
> > analysis and manual removal.
> 
> The reverse of dpkg --get-selections is dpkg --set-selections, which
> you run using the saved file as input instead of output.  Then you
> follow this with something like "apt-get dselect-upgrade" to install
> the packages necessary to make the new system match the old system.

Sounds tricky (I've never used dselect and other low-level things before
and don't know much of them) but I'll certainly save this paragraph for
future reference. Thank you.

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222825

Victor writes:
> But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
> developer environments separately after the install, and then regret
> it and wish to get rid of them cleanly.

What does

     apt remove --purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove

not do that you want done?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#222847

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Jo, 28 mai 20, 10:56:14, John Hasler wrote:
> Victor writes:
> > But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
> > developer environments separately after the install, and then regret
> > it and wish to get rid of them cleanly.
> 
> What does
> 
>      apt remove --purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove

Let me turn that around a bit ;)

    apt purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove --purge


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#222872

John Hasler wrote:
> Victor writes:
> > But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
> > developer environments separately after the install, and then regret
> > it and wish to get rid of them cleanly.
> 
> What does
> 
>      apt remove --purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove
> 
> not do that you want done?

Unfortunately it does not know what packages are unwanted, nor
do I (the user) to tell it.

We are all familiar with the situation when after a long period of
usage, a system becomes full of software which we once installed for
some purpose and then abandoned or disused. A gentle hint on what is an
<unwanted package> would be very much appreciated at such moments.

Maybe the high-level package management software (aptitude?) is better
at that?

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222878

On 5/29/20 10:32 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote:

> John Hasler wrote:
>> Victor writes:
>>> But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
>>> developer environments separately after the install, and then regret
>>> it and wish to get rid of them cleanly.
>> What does
>>
>>       apt remove --purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove
>>
>> not do that you want done?
> Unfortunately it does not know what packages are unwanted, nor
> do I (the user) to tell it.
>
> We are all familiar with the situation when after a long period of
> usage, a system becomes full of software which we once installed for
> some purpose and then abandoned or disused. A gentle hint on what is an
> <unwanted package> would be very much appreciated at such moments.
>
> Maybe the high-level package management software (aptitude?) is better
> at that?
>
Of course, in any serious server environment, one is likely to have lots 
of software that was NOT installed through dpkg or apt - ranging from 
stuff installed directly from tarballs, to local configurations & scripts.

As far as I can tell, the only way to get to a "pristine" system, is to 
rebuild from scratch.

Miles Fidelman




-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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#222881

Miles Fidelman wrote:
> 
> > John Hasler wrote:
> > > Victor writes:
> > > > But *many* people do install productivity tools, office tools, games,
> > > > developer environments separately after the install, and then regret
> > > > it and wish to get rid of them cleanly.
> > > What does
> > > 
> > >       apt remove --purge <unwanted package> ; apt autoremove
> > > 
> > > not do that you want done?
> > Unfortunately it does not know what packages are unwanted, nor
> > do I (the user) to tell it.
> > 
> > We are all familiar with the situation when after a long period of
> > usage, a system becomes full of software which we once installed for
> > some purpose and then abandoned or disused. A gentle hint on what is an
> > <unwanted package> would be very much appreciated at such moments.
> > 
> > Maybe the high-level package management software (aptitude?) is better
> > at that?
> > 
> Of course, in any serious server environment, one is likely to have lots of
> software that was NOT installed through dpkg or apt - ranging from stuff
> installed directly from tarballs, to local configurations & scripts.

For such systems, one usually has backups/snapshots/archives of some
kind, and sometimes even documentation.

> 
> As far as I can tell, the only way to get to a "pristine" system, is to
> rebuild from scratch.

Yes, probably, for the server cattle it's the right approach. I have a
number of ansible playbooks and don't hesitate to terminate an EC2
instance or a bhyve virtual machine.

But sometimes it's such a pity to kill a desktop system.

I've just been thinking of Android which is Linux based but has a very
clear distinction between the base system and user packages. You can
easily remove all the package bloat from an Android device (unless a
package is preinstalled and is thus a part of the "base system). OTOH, a
real return to the "pristine state" (a factory reset) is in fact
equivalent to reinstalling from scratch because you lose all data and
personalizations.

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/

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#222884

Victor writes:
> We are all familiar with the situation when after a long period of
> usage, a system becomes full of software which we once installed for
> some purpose and then abandoned or disused.

No, we aren't.  I've been running Debian since 1.1 was released and have
never experienced that problem.

> A gentle hint on what is an <unwanted package> would be very much
> appreciated at such moments.

How could a package management system possibly know that?

Perhaps what you want is something which will tell you which programs
have gone unused for the longest time.  

-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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