Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > linux.debian.user > #226825 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200 |
| Last post | 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 69 — 16 participants |
Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user
LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 16:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-09 17:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 05:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2020-09-10 12:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 14:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-11 05:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 19:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 09:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 19:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 20:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 20:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 23:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 22:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-11 22:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 12:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 12:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 20:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 22:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 21:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-14 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 16:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-15 21:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 01:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 02:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-09-16 06:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 10:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 11:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-16 14:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 02:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 09:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 21:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-17 22:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 22:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-18 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-19 13:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-19 21:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 07:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 17:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 21:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-09-20 07:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 12:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200
Page 2 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 Next page →
| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 20:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANz1w-1vn-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226869 |
On 09/10/2020 12:34 PM, Marco Möller wrote: > > > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant > with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line > because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might > contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully > installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which > makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is > especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or > expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey, > maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network > manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of > enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute > utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a > full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did > unselect the second line initially. Yepp ;/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 20:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANzkS-1R9-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226869 |
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote: >I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that >first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is >redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the >second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the >first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became >anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a >behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly >not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection >"mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this >mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already >something like network manager and other network managing tools or a >tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe >some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading >and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and >therefore did unselect the second line initially. People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 20:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANzNT-20E-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226871 |
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant > > with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line > > because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might > > contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully > > installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which > > makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is > > especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or > > expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey, > > maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network > > manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of > > enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute > > utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a > > full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did > > unselect the second line initially. > > People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the > software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what > gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience. I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment" means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not think this is nit-picking. I do not agree with Marco Möller that the first line is redundant, but, if it specified that the Debian desktop environment was Xfce, it is possible it would give some clarity. OTOH, if it was decided not to have a default desktop, the first line could go. -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 23:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANBPI-3cs-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226872 |
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:44:26PM +0100, Brian wrote: >On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote: >> People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the >> software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what >> gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience. > >I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and >other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment" >means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the >default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe >the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not >think this is nit-picking. Maybe not, but my point is that you use the task selections to get a bunch of software, and it's going to err on the side of giving you too much. If getting stuff you don't want is not acceptable, just don't use the tasks because they're the wrong tool for whatever you're doing. If getting stuff you don't want is acceptable, then it really doesn't matter if you get an extra gnome, right?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 22:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANATE-2DL-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226869 |
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 19:34:24 (+0200), Marco Möller wrote:
> On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
[…]
> > > > You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
> > > > specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
> > > > but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
> > > > then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
> > > > installed.
> > >
> > > I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
> > > likely considers that a feature.
> >
> > So what would your version of an installer do when presented with:
> >
> > │ [*] Debian desktop environment │
> > │ [ ] ... GNOME │
> > │ [ ] ... Xfce │
> > │ [ ] ... KDE │
> > │ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
> > │ [ ] ... MATE │
> > │ [ ] ... LXDE │
>
> I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
> first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is
> redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the
> second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not imag[in]e what the
> first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became
> anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a
> behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly
> not selected.
OTOH it makes a lot of sense to a user, new to linux, who knows they
want to try KDE as their desktop, say, because they've read about it
somewhere. If they click on KDE, that's what they get. Were the d-i
to have already selected GNOME when this person clicked on KDE, they
would get both.
Or, if you treat the list like a ballot, the d-i keeps the default up
its sleeve (for it has to install *some* DE), but it doesn't try to
influence the user's choice unfairly.
You can argue this any way you like. Hardly a "bug".
> It is especially annoying if you did this selection
> "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this
> mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already
> something like network manager and other network managing tools or a
> tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe
> some other cute utilities.
Eh?
> But I ended up with looong time downloading
> and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid
If you're *that* concerned, try reading the Installation Guide first:
NOTE
The “Desktop environment” task will install a graphical desktop environment.
By default, debian-installer installs the Gnome desktop environment. It is
possible to interactively select a different desktop environment during the instal-
lation. It is also possible to install multiple desktops, but some combinations of
desktop may not be co-installable.
> and
> therefore did unselect the second line initially.
Are you saying that the second line (GNOME) was selected by default?
(Note that my two screen shots are taken from different point
releases: the (snipped) tasksel output was copied just today,
whereas the screen extract quoted above is 10 months old, being
from the 10.2 d-i.)
Cheers,
David.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-11 22:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANY9z-89u-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226869 |
Marco Möller writes: > On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote: >> So what would your version of an installer do when presented with: >> >> │ [*] Debian desktop environment │ >> │ [ ] ... GNOME │ >> │ [ ] ... Xfce │ >> │ [ ] ... KDE │ >> │ [ ] ... Cinnamon │ >> │ [ ] ... MATE │ >> │ [ ] ... LXDE │ > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is > redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the > second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the > first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became > anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a > behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly > not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection > "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this > mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already > something like network manager and other network managing tools or a > tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe > some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading > and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and > therefore did unselect the second line initially. > Best regards, Marco. I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as follows? -- Debian desktop environments: [ ] ... GNOME (default) [ ] ... Xfce [ ] ... KDE [ ] ... Cinnamon [ ] ... MATE [ ] ... LXDE -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 11:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOaaJ-770-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226913 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > follows? -- > > Debian desktop environments: > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > [ ] ... Xfce > [ ] ... KDE > [ ] ... Cinnamon > [ ] ... MATE > [ ] ... LXDE You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or tasksel?). Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 12:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOau6-7e0-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226924 |
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > follows? -- > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > [ ] ... Xfce > > [ ] ... KDE > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > [ ] ... MATE > > [ ] ... LXDE > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or > tasksel?). > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AObgt-7J8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226927 |
On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: >> > >> > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options >> > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as >> > follows? -- >> > >> > Debian desktop environments: >> > [ ] ... GNOME (default) >> > [ ] ... Xfce >> > [ ] ... KDE >> > [ ] ... Cinnamon >> > [ ] ... MATE >> > [ ] ... LXDE >> >> You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer >> (or >> tasksel?). >> >> Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter given a YES, no choice. The dialogue should probably be something like "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" -- Key ID 4BFEBB31
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 20:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOi8h-3A2-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226928 |
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > (or > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter > given a YES, no > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present dialog caters for this situation. -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 20:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOirD-3Gb-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226934 |
On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > >> On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: >> > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> > >> > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: >> > > > >> > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options >> > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as >> > > > follows? -- >> > > > >> > > > Debian desktop environments: >> > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) >> > > > [ ] ... Xfce >> > > > [ ] ... KDE >> > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon >> > > > [ ] ... MATE >> > > > [ ] ... LXDE >> > > >> > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer >> > > (or >> > > tasksel?). >> > > >> > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. >> > >> > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? >> >> I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press >> enter >> given a YES, no >> choice. The dialogue should probably be something like >> "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > dialog caters for this situation. Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case the way it is makes sense. -- Key ID 4BFEBB31
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 20:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOiKZ-3My-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226935 |
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > (or > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just > > > press enter > > > given a YES, no > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > dialog caters for this situation. > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which > case the way it is makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion. To make sense of Marco's suggestion, it would require a Yes/No radio button for *any* DE installation. Yes would be preselected. There would also be a series of checkboxes, with GNOME preselected. Other DEs could be checked/unchecked if desired. When No is pressed, the checkboxes would become greyed, but not lose their selection status (so that pressing No & Yes has no effect). I'm not familiar enough with curses to know how to implement this. Cheers, David.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 22:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOkjL-4Oy-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226936 |
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 13:47:04 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote: > > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > > (or > > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just > > > > press enter > > > > given a YES, no > > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > > dialog caters for this situation. > > > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which > > case the way it is makes sense. > > But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion. That is only because they do not think it through. "I do not want Debian desktop environment" they say. That's fine; reject having it; untick it. Now nothing is selected. That's ok. A user now gets nothing. Who would argue with that action if that is what is required? But "I want Mate" is the next request. Ok, tick it and that is what the user will get. Where's the problem? -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-12 21:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOj4m-48z-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226935 |
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 +0100, mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > (or > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press > > > enter > > > given a YES, no > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > dialog caters for this situation. > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > the way it is makes sense. Debian desktop environment gives a user what the present default desktop is. At the present, it gives exactly the same as choosing "Gnome. If the default desktop was Xfce, a user would get Xfce with Debian desktop environment. This would be the same as choosing "Xfce". -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-14 14:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOVCF-27h-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226935 |
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote: > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > the way it is makes sense. My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized images (no longer supported), the default could be something else. I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if "Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away. Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want. If we're going to complain about the installer, the very top of my list would be "put the default sources.list lines in place, commented out, even when there's no Internet connection during the install". Users who come into IRC without a working sources.list file because they installed with the official image on a machine with proprietary wifi always have to be hand-held through getting the correct lines into sources.list so that apt(-get) will work.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-14 16:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AOXl7-39R-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226978 |
On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote: > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > > the way it is makes sense. > > My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't > actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the > menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default > happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted > up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to > be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized > images (no longer supported), the default could be something else. The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer does know what the default is. > I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if > "Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away. > Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want. Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-15 21:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APoOm-2LH-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226980 |
Brian writes: > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > does know what the default is. > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes to check according to what they want. Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option presented to the user? -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 01:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APsRX-598-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227014 |
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 +0200, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > Brian writes: > > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > > does know what the default is. > > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes > to check according to what they want. A user sees a dialog with only only Debian desktop environment selected. Activating this gets him what is displayed. Nothing ambiguous there. A user deselects the only ticked entry and activates the choice. I think we can agree that a desktop is not installed. Another user deselects the only ticked entry and ticks MATE instead. He expects MATE to be installed. Where's the ambiguity? > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > presented to the user? No. -- Brian.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 02:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APt1D-5co-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227014 |
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > Brian writes: > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > > does know what the default is. > > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes > to check according to what they want. > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > presented to the user? No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent Recommends from being installed. But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? Cheers, David.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 06:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APwLT-7uX-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227016 |
David Wright composed on 2020-09-15 18:50 (UTC-0500): > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? This the tail of basically the same installer cmdline I've been using for Debian for several years, Bullseye the last: netcfg/get_nameservers=8.8.4.4 netcfg/confirm_static=true tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
Page 2 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 Next page →
Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user
csiph-web