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Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems]

From <tomas@tuxteam.de>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems]
Date 2021-03-04 09:50 +0100
Message-ID <BORQd-3YF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 05:42:36PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:

[...]

> So, you designed, built, and programmed your "single other machine"
> using machines that you designed, built [...]

This is disingenuous.

The whole game is about trust. I trust gcc more than I trust MSVC.
That may be a good bet or a bad bet, as trust always is. I trust
Debian more than I trust, let's say, Salesforce.

I trust Debian: do you think I can vet the ~2070 packages that are
currently installed on my personal box?

Thompson's "on trusting trust" is just a bad joke when put in that
perspective.

I am well aware of the importance of Thompson's paper, mind you. It
was seminal in showing the importance of the build chain. NixOS and
Guix wouldn't be without that perspective. It has been demonstrated
practically a couple of times since then (MSVC, npm, etc.).

The one aspect missing is, though, the "social" aspect: the software
endeavour has become so devilishly complex that the idea of One
Person (TM) checking everything down to some hypothetical "Trust
Roots" is... theoretical, to state it politely. You gotta delegate
some trust (well, most of it, actually).

And oh, do you a favour and dare a step forward from the 1984s.
Read David A. Wheeler's work [1] and put yourself in the 2010s :-)

Back to the topic: I do trust my ISP significantly less than I do
OpenWRT. Therefore there is something between their provided router
and my home network.

Cheers

[1] https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1004.5534

 - t

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Thread

Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-02 21:10 +0100
  Re: Installation problems Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-02 21:40 +0100
    Re: Installation problems Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-02 22:20 +0100
      Re: Installation problems <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-02 22:30 +0100
        Re: Installation problems Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 00:10 +0100
    Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-02 22:50 +0100
      Re: Installation problems "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-02 23:20 +0100
        Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 02:40 +0100
          Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 02:50 +0100
      Re: Installation problems Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2021-03-03 00:00 +0100
        Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 10:30 +0100
          Re: Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-03 15:40 +0100
            Re: Installation problems Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-03 16:40 +0100
            Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 16:40 +0100
              Re: Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-03 22:40 +0100
                Re: Installation problems Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-03 23:00 +0100
                Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-04 13:00 +0100
                Re: Installation problems Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 13:30 +0100
                Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-04 14:00 +0100
                Re: Installation problems Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-04 17:30 +0100
    Re: Installation problems Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2021-03-02 23:50 +0100
      Re: Installation problems David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 03:50 +0100
        Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 10:50 +0100
          Re: Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 11:20 +0100
    Re: Installation problems Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2021-03-03 00:00 +0100
  PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-03 16:30 +0100
    Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-03 22:30 +0100
      Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-03 23:00 +0100
        Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-04 02:50 +0100
          Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-04 03:50 +0100
            Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-04 04:20 +0100
              Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-04 05:10 +0100
                Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-04 10:00 +0100
          Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-04 09:50 +0100
            Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-04 10:50 +0100
              Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-04 14:20 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 15:30 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-04 16:20 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 17:20 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-04 19:10 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 19:30 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-04 23:20 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-04 23:40 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-04 23:50 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 15:30 +0100
              Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 14:20 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-04 16:10 +0100
                Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation  problems] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-04 17:20 +0100
                OT: Bathroom scales (was: Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems]) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-04 17:40 +0100
            Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-04 23:30 +0100
              [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-05 04:00 +0100
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of  Installation problems] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-05 06:30 +0100
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of  Installation problems] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-05 06:40 +0100
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-05 07:40 +0100
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of  Installation problems] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-05 09:20 +0100
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Trusting trust [was: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-05 15:10 +0100
    Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-04 13:30 +0100
      Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 18:50 +0100
      Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-04 23:50 +0100
        Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-05 13:20 +0100
          Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-03-05 21:30 +0100
            Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-05 22:20 +0100
              Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-05 22:50 +0100
                Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-05 23:30 +0100
                Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-03-06 00:40 +0100
                Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-07 01:40 +0100
    Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-06 02:50 +0100
    Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-08 13:10 +0100
      Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-08 13:30 +0100
      Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-08 17:30 +0100
        Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-08 20:20 +0100
          Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-09 02:10 +0100
        Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-09 13:40 +0100
          Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-03-09 14:00 +0100
            Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-09 14:20 +0100
          Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-09 14:10 +0100
            Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-09 14:20 +0100
            Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-09 21:40 +0100
              Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 10:50 +0100
                Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-10 11:30 +0100
                Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 14:40 +0100
                Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-10 21:50 +0100
                Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems} "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-11 00:20 +0100

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