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Debian supports pridemonth?

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  Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
                  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
                  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
                    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
                        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
                          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                        Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
                          Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
                            Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                              Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
                                  Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
                                    Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                                      Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
                                    Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                                    Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
                                    Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
                                      Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
                                      Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
                                      Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
                                    Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
                              Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
                          Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                          Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                            Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                                  Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                                    Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
                                  Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                            Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
                                  Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
                                    Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
                                      Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
                                        Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
                                          Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
                            Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
                                  Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
                            Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
                            Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
                              Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
                                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
                                  Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
                                    Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
                                    Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
                                    What can I do if I disagree with  a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
                        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
                        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
                  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
                  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200

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#10700 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 09:54:38PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:51:38PM +0200, Fabian Grünbichler wrote:
> > another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South,
> > where Vienna hosted this year's Europride:
> > 
> > https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520
> > 
> > the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to
> > pride for years:
> > 
> > https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg
> > 
> > one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from
> > Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like
> > Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some
> > public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of
> > Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/
> 
> Did any of those companies change their website logo for a month?

The Viennese public transport company has been doing it for years on
their tram ways (not sure of the exact duration, but a few weeks at
least around the Vienna Pride and Lifeball), and had lots of ads and
stuff like slogans on their electronic schedule displays this year.

Coca-Cola sold (still stocked in some shops) bottles heavily featuring
pride flags and slogans, which is arguably a lot more visible than
changing a logo on a website.

REWE put up rainbow/pride flags on each of their shop entrances a few
years ago, those are still there today and year-round
(https://www.rewe-group.com/de/newsroom/stories/rewe-setzt-auf-regenbogen/).

Siemens heavily promoted their sponsoring of and participation in
Europride on Facebook at least, their last two posts are pride-related.

Those are just the first instances that came to my mind without
googling, or that were linked directly from the index of their
respective web sites.

It does feel kind of ridiculous to have to post message like this (and
feel like I have to promote or defend corporations that I don't care
about at all) - obviously companies sponsoring an event like Europride
also promote that fact publicly, it's the point of sponsoring after all.
Some probably do it for PR reasons, some do it because their employees
take the initiative, for some it might be an area of personal interest
for people making such decisions. That it is no problem[1] in a country
with a political climate like Austria to host such an event and get it
sponsored by lots of big, boring companies, but that it causes such
waves inside Debian to change the logo on the website to that of the
appropriate Debian team speaks volumes IMHO. It probably also shows why
such teams and initiatives are still sorely needed today and for the
forseeable future.

I likely won't post another mail to this thread, it's past the point of
being tiresome already.

1: Of course there was the usual sorry and small lot of fundamental
christians and neo-nazis to protest the pride parade itself. Yes, this
is a very accurate description of who organized that and showed up
there.

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#10702 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Jul 03 2019, Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> wrote:
> In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for 
> people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and
> what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be 
> considered offensive by people in the US.

I would prefer if you could acknowledge that these are your personal
feelings (as a German, I presume), but not necessarily the feelings of
the "people in Germany".

If you have more representative sources for this (something like a poll
maybe), it would be nice to give references.


Best,
-Nikolaus

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F

             »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«

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#10686 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Hi!

> On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions.
> But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable
> to other countries or global projects.
> People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only 
> in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being 
> allow to discuss on Debian lists.

> Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences:
> 
> People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> 
> In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> if skin color would play any role in university admission.

This sentence sounds nice in theory, but does unfortunately not tell us
anything about actual racism, social differences, disadvantages and
discrimination that minorities do experience in Europe, not only in
universities.

Your sentence makes it look like discrimination does not exist, so I'd
like to invite you to read up a bit before making such a bold statement.

- How is one's origin linked to social class?
- How is one's gender linked to class?

Search engines might help with the search term "social reproduction", as
coined by Bourdieu. [1]

So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate, but structurally,
there is discrimination against minorities, and this can be seen in all
sorts of statistics (wage differences between women and men, actual
student numbers with "migratory background" [2] as being
not-born-from-German-passport-holding-parents is called in German
administrations).

> Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest 
> country in the world, an example for the world.

Sigh. It happens that cultural hegemony is often inadvertedly exerted by
some people socialized in the USA (or France, or Japan, or Germany or
Russia or ${country}). Sometimes people are unable to see that people
who grew up elsewhere have not the same cultural references as them.
Let's point it out to them, when it happens but let's not make it a
binary opposition in a world view which goes along the lines of good and
evil.

The image that you depict of the world opposes one (supposed) value
system to the other, however, I would argue that it is a matter of
socialization, not of any immovable cultural difference.

> Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German"
> is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to
> "I am proud of the holocaust".

This might be true, in particular for the generation whose parents and
grand-parents were alive during 1933-45. But the issue is not about
coming from a country with the nazi past. Remember? other countries had
similar movements, from the Italian fascists, Spain had Franco, France
had the Vichy government under Pétain. The issue is instead that it is
totally absurd to be "proud" of a nation, whichever it is.

> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
> 
> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various 
> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political 
> mission.
> 
> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for 
> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political 
> technical project.
> 
> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:

I certainly believe that there were more peole involved in this thread
than German and English native speakers.

> The people with English as native language are in the first group.
> The people with German as native language are in the second group.

Uh. No. As a German native speaker am definitely not unhappy "with
people being honored by Debian for non-technical reasons, and wants
Debian in general to be a non-political technical project" and I think
you should refrain from making such assumptions.

On a sidenote, I noticed that ~98% of the people who expressed their
view on this thread are white heterosexual (to my knowledge) males. What
does this tell us?

> It is likely not the language itself and causes might be different
> from what I outlined above, but it looks pretty clear to me that
> language/cultural/geographical differences are the root cause of
> these disagreements.
> 
> And this makes you appear very offensive, and it might even drive people 
> out of Debian, if you try to push your groups opinion in Debian 
> mistakenly thinking people who fundamentally disagree with you would 
> only be uninformed.

I agree with Sam, and I think this thread has really nothing to do with
debian-project anymore.

I am very surprised at how the above mentioned 98% people who have
voiced their rejection here, fear that politics might enter a technical
sphere. (As if this sphere was autonomous from the rest of the planet!
Spoiler alert: it is not. Your computer parts come from Kongo, Taiwan,
China. Our conversations go through globally operated undersea cables.
The protocols we use are made by diverse people, even though one cannot
exactly pretend that the Global South or the civil society is part of it
[3]. The software you create is used on the entire planet, at least do I
hope so.) Putting up this logo, to get back to the origin of this
discussion, is a super tiny act. It's about living together and
respecting each others differences, without opposing them to each other,
but seeking similarities.

Cheers,
Ulrike

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_reproduction
[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrationshintergrund
[3] https://www.ietf.org/blog/china/ RFCs by country of author

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#10692 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 04:07:40PM +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> >> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> > Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions.
> > But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable
> > to other countries or global projects.
> > People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only 
> > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being 
> > allow to discuss on Debian lists.
> 
> > Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences:
> > 
> > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> > 
> > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> > if skin color would play any role in university admission.
>...
> So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate,
>...

Some US universities do consider race in admission.
It is called "affirmative action".

White people need to be better than black people for university admission.
Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission.

And this consideration of race is done officially.

I have never heard about a German university officially stating that 
they are giving preferred treatment in admission for people with Turkish 
roots because they are underrepresented among students.

Officially asking people about their ancestry in university admission 
would also remind people of terms like Ariernachweis and Halbjude,
which makes the holocaust a reason against doing that in Germany.

> Cheers,
> Ulrike
>...

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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#10703 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Adding debian-project back in my reply since this is about a public mail 
I wrote, and a statement by the AH team is not a private conversation.

On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 01:01:14AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Adrian,

Steve,

> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> >
> >Some US universities do consider race in admission.
> >It is called "affirmative action".
> >
> >White people need to be better than black people for university admission.
> >Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission.
> 
> This kind of statement has *no* place in Debian forums. 
> 
> Regardless of culture or background, it is utterly inappropriate within
> the Debian community to characterise affirmative action as "black
> people don't need to be as good as white people" etc.

my understanding of affirmative action in the US is that where it is in 
place some white people get admitted to university, even though asian 
people with the same qualifications are not being admitted.

Which sounds to me as if we white people don't need to be as good
as asian people for getting admitted to university.

I would consider this racism against a minority, but due to your 
different cultural background you might consider it appropriate.

I am coming from a cultural background where asking about ethnicity 
during university admission would be considered inappropriate.

And becoming aware of such differences makes me for example understand 
better why I consider Debian Outreachy racist, but other people do not.

If anything I say is incorrect, please say what and why.
And please do so publicly, otherwise whatever incorrect things I wrote 
might be considered correct by other people following the discussion.

On a higher level, I wonder how much of such conflicts like differing 
opinions on whether Debian should support pridemonth are based on
people in the US and UK mistakenly thinking that problems and 
discussions and solutions for diversity in their countries would
also apply 1:1 to a global project.

Is there anything or anyone in the Open Source world providing support 
by highlighting cultural differences, and how global Open Source 
projects can handle them best for welcoming global diversity?

> Steve, for the AH team

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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#10704 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Hi!

On 04.07.19 11:57, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Adding debian-project back in my reply since this is about a public mail 
> I wrote, and a statement by the AH team is not a private conversation.

This looks like you think you're being treated unfairly and want to make
that public. So here goes another public reply to you, even though we're
now completely off-topic, as said in my previous email already.

> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 01:01:14AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>>>
>>> Some US universities do consider race in admission.
>>> It is called "affirmative action".
>>>
>>> White people need to be better than black people for university admission.
>>> Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission.
>>
>> This kind of statement has *no* place in Debian forums. 
>>
>> Regardless of culture or background, it is utterly inappropriate within
>> the Debian community to characterise affirmative action as "black
>> people don't need to be as good as white people" etc.
> 
> my understanding of affirmative action in the US is that where it is in 
> place some white people get admitted to university, even though asian 
> people with the same qualifications are not being admitted.

Note that in the US, a classification of something called "race" [0] has
been introduced with the first census in 1790. It has always been a
political instrument, which originally aimed at giving the Southern
states more seats in the US House of Representatives [1].

In the 1960s, according to Keith Prewett, author of "What Is 'Your'
Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans" [2], the
ethnical statistics of the census suddenly transformed into a tool to
fight discrimination: While knowing the quota of black people in a given
place or region, it looked simple to imagine and introduce quotas for
universities (as an example) to fight that discrimination. Prewett says
that "having a hammer in your hand, every problem looks like a nail" [3].

60 years later, there might be a eed to create "appropriate tools to
fight inequalities" [3], instead of using tools which "bear the risk of
reinforcing the racial divisions they pretend to fight" [3].

Now, back to what you seem to be trying to say. In your argumentation,
you reuse the same categories that you pretend to be denouncing at the
same time (you denounce affirmative action based on the "race" concept
of the US census, but you reuse the terms of that same census without
interrogating them).

Why are you doing this? I have the impression that you keep bringing up
US political issues to stress supposed unsolvable cultural differences
along the lines of good and evil, i.e.making up an imaginary space in
which it's "us" versus "them". But such categories are not sufficient to
describe and understand the world we live in.

> Is there anything or anyone in the Open Source world providing support 
> by highlighting cultural differences, and how global Open Source 
> projects can handle them best for welcoming global diversity?

I think you are using language and concepts that are not commonly shared
by everyone participating in this thread:

 - using the term Open Source in favour of free software is one thing,

 - "cultural differences" is a term that sounds good on the outside, but
   the way you have been using it in this thread over-emphasizes
   differences. This is also called "othering", and creates even more
   potential for discrimination. (To be clear: you seem to want to
   stretch the differences of an imaginary group of "native English
   speakers" versus another imaginary group of "native German speakers",
   and you attest both groups a common cultural background which in
   itself is highly controversial in all sorts of ways.)

 - "global diversity": I don't understand what this is supposed to mean
    exactly and I'm not up for doing more guess work.

I'd like to end this "discussion" with a nice reading recommendation, an
RFC for diversity at the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7704

Cheers!
Ulrike

[0] "something" because the term is unclear, and may refer to national
    or tribal origin, skin color, language groups etc. I personally
    reject this term in any configuration possible.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise
[2] https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10032.html
[3] I'm quoting this from
https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2019/07/BREVILLE/60012 in French and
I'm translating this back into English.

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#10689 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Adrian Bunk wrote:

> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
> 
> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various 
> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political 
> mission.
> 
> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for 
> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political 
> technical project.
> 
> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:

I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating
in this discussion.

This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same
refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed,
they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to
invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may
have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due
to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to,
compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain
retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects.

If asked to charecterise this thread, they may attempt to be objective
by pointing out that dissecting the minutæ of (say) Hispanic culture
or the «Historikerstreit» is a distraction at best, and might even
charitibly concede that the thread is a dry satire of the "just asking
questions" or the "tired arguments presented as an insightfully novel
rebuttal" genres. However, the majority of their response would frankly
not be to its advantage, let alone repeatable in polite company.

This is all to say that I would issue a not-insignificant caution to
all from making crass or otherwise premature overgeneralisations about
who constitutes this esteemed Project.


Regards,

-- 
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      lamby@debian.org 🍥 chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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#10696 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 11:51:18AM -0300, Chris Lamb wrote:

> I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating
> in this discussion.

> This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same
> refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed,
> they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to
> invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may
> have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due
> to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to,
> compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain
> retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects.

This.  So very much this.

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#10760 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On 7/3/19 4:51 PM, Chris Lamb wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
>> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
>>
>> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various
>> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political
>> mission.
>>
>> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for
>> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political
>> technical project.
>>
>> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:
> I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating
> in this discussion.
>
> This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same
> refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed,
> they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to
> invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may
> have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due
> to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to,
> compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain
> retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects.
>
> If asked to charecterise this thread, they may attempt to be objective
> by pointing out that dissecting the minutæ of (say) Hispanic culture
> or the «Historikerstreit» is a distraction at best, and might even
> charitibly concede that the thread is a dry satire of the "just asking
> questions" or the "tired arguments presented as an insightfully novel
> rebuttal" genres. However, the majority of their response would frankly
> not be to its advantage, let alone repeatable in polite company.
>
> This is all to say that I would issue a not-insignificant caution to
> all from making crass or otherwise premature overgeneralisations about
> who constitutes this esteemed Project.
>
>
> Regards,
>
I wish to reboot this - I think vast majority is the third group, so 
just vocal few (on different sides of every argument) are creating this 
feeling of uncertainty and discomfort.

I just wish I was able to craft such fine mail myself but I am proud 
that Chris did it.

Z

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#10691 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
>
> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various 
> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political 
> mission.
>
> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for 
> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political 
> technical project.
>
> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:
> The people with English as native language are in the first group.
> The people with German as native language are in the second group.

Sorry, but can we stop this a bit?

Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,
and I also think that it is impossible to encapsulate the politics from
a technical project. And I am sure that I am not the only one. At least
my professional and personal environment goes into the same direction.

If you like, you can even derivate that from the german history.

People are not only formed by their national culture. They are as well
formed by their professional contacts, by their friends, by the way they
get information and so on.

The conflict that we have here is not an anglo-german (or other)
cultural one. It is one of the specific people involved in Debian, who
are only a very small, absolutely non-representative portion of the
population of any country.

Best regards

Ole

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#10695 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
> > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
> >
> > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various 
> > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political 
> > mission.
> >
> > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for 
> > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political 
> > technical project.
> >
> > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:
> > The people with English as native language are in the first group.
> > The people with German as native language are in the second group.
> 
> Sorry, but can we stop this a bit?
> 
> Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,

Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

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#10701 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,
> 
> Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*.

And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with
the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying
to put our diversity statement into application.

Can we stop this discussion now, please?

Unless you really want to revert their decision via a general
resolution... but even in that case, the discussion here doesn't help to
go forward with this.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Support Debian LTS: https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
Learn to master Debian: https://debian-handbook.info/get/

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#10705 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,
> > 
> > Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*.
> 
> And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with
> the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying
> to put our diversity statement into application.
> 
My position is not one of disagreement without basis.  I have found,
through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like
the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than
good.  By that I do not mean that they hurt the feelings of majority
groups (though that may be an associated affect), but rather that in
the end such efforts often further marginalize those for whom the "help"
is meant.

The point of Debian being a do-ocracy is not lost on me.  In fact, when
it comes to technical matters, it is the superior approach.  Even in
difficult technical matters (like the init system debate) where the
choices amount to "do this" and "do nothing" there is a technical
committee which can act as arbiter.  However, when it comes to
non-technical matters, esepcially when one potential course of action is
"do nothing," there is no such possibility.

Those who wish to "help" marginalized groups by displays such as the
pride month support have an avenue to "do" what they believe is best in
this do-ocracy of ours.  What course is available to me and those like
me who believe we should "do nothing"?  It would seem that public
discussions that attempt to address that are met with great resistance
and with many attacks against the character, motivations, and
demographics of those who hold that position.

> Can we stop this discussion now, please?
> 
Since it seems like on this occassion and at least one prior occassion
my expression of my position/opinion on what Debian as a project should
or should not do based on my own experience with discrimination and
supposed diversity efforts has been met with multiple responses of the
general sentiment "be quiet, your opinion is not wanted here, let the
others speak," I can only conclude that I have not been sufficiently
oppressed to have my opinions count.

> Unless you really want to revert their decision via a general
> resolution... but even in that case, the discussion here doesn't help to
> go forward with this.
> 
Perhaps you feel like this discussion doesn't help because nobody has
ever tried to "help" you by targeting a diversity effort at you.

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

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#10706 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

Roberto,

On 04/07/2019 12:43, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

> My position is not one of disagreement without basis.  I have found,
> through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like
> the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than
> good.

Could you expand on what is your experience on this?

I have the opposite view, being a person represented under the LGBTQI+
umbrella, I find these efforts very positive and helpful.

They make me feel the community care about people like me, but more
importantly, it shows other people under the same umbrella that it is OK
to be open about their identity in our community. That they will be able
to contribute as their whole selves, and that they will not need to
hide, like they need to do in so many aspects of their lives.

To give one simple and concrete example, last week I sent an email to
-private revealing something about my identity, and among the many
lovely messages of support, I got a message telling me how a relative of
a DD had experiences similar to mine. I'd like to think that me being
showing it is OK to be queer in Debian might help that person someday
approach our community.

Representation does matter.

> What course is available to me and those like
> me who believe we should "do nothing"?

I think the main issue is that most people who advocated for that
position where doing it in the abstract, and were not part of the
marginalised groups in discussion. It is not possible to talk about
inclusion completely in the abstract, as each marginalised group has
very different problems and needs.

I think you can contribute to the debate sharing how this impacts you
personally.

-- 
Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)

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#10707 — Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 07:43:13AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> > > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,
> > > 
> > > Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*.
> > 
> > And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with
> > the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying
> > to put our diversity statement into application.
> > 
> My position is not one of disagreement without basis.  I have found,
> through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like
> the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than
> good.  By that I do not mean that they hurt the feelings of majority
> groups (though that may be an associated affect), but rather that in
> the end such efforts often further marginalize those for whom the "help"
> is meant.

Sorry if I'm belaboring the obvious, but, uhm, is this not how this has
always played out in history when some people decide to change the
status quo? Is it not only normal that in the initial and interim stage,
before the opinion of the majority is changed, pretty much any and every
action is viewed as provocative and destabilizing and leads to
a short-term increase in attacks towards the corresponding group?
The point is that each of these actions will hopefully cause maybe
a single person, maybe five people, maybe a hundred, to stop, think,
reconsider, and decide that the status quo need not necessarily remain
such. And, yes, historically there have always been people in these
groups who would say something like "oh, please, stop rocking the boat,
we are fine as long as they don't pay attention to us" - but part of
the point is to change that mindset, too.

Please note that I'm not saying "it's okay for everyone to harass
activists and people for whose benefit those activists are carrying out
their activism"; I'm also not saying "oh come on, stop complaining, of
course you'll have to take some flack". I have seen close friends of
mine get hurt in such ways, some by words, some by more than words, and
while I personally have not been on the receiving end, for all that it's
worth, I do emphatize as much as it is possible for me to.

G'luck,
Peter

-- 
Peter Pentchev  roam@{ringlet.net,debian.org,FreeBSD.org} pp@storpool.com
PGP key:        http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115  C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13

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#10728 — What can I do if I disagree with a Delegate's Decision

>>>>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:

    Roberto> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
    >> On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

    Roberto> The point of Debian being a do-ocracy is not lost on me.
    Roberto> In fact, when it comes to technical matters, it is the
    Roberto> superior approach.  Even in difficult technical matters
    Roberto> (like the init system debate) where the choices amount to
    Roberto> "do this" and "do nothing" there is a technical committee
    Roberto> which can act as arbiter.  However, when it comes to
    Roberto> non-technical matters, esepcially when one potential course
    Roberto> of action is "do nothing," there is no such possibility.

    Roberto> Those who wish to "help" marginalized groups by displays
    Roberto> such as the pride month support have an avenue to "do" what
    Roberto> they believe is best in this do-ocracy of ours.  What
    Roberto> course is available to me and those like me who believe we
    Roberto> should "do nothing"?  It would seem that public discussions
    Roberto> that attempt to address that are met with great resistance
    Roberto> and with many attacks against the character, motivations,
    Roberto> and demographics of those who hold that position.

Hi.

So, first, if you want to have more influence in a given team, join that
team and contribute active work to it.  I don't think anyone here is
saying that the teams in question shouldn't exist.  So, even if you
think the right option for a given issue is "do nothing," there are
positive things you could do to gain credibility within the teams in
question.

Different teams have standards for how they evaluate concerns raised by
members.  But if all the concerns here were being raised by active
members of the publicity team who contributed ongoing time, I'd expect
the team to treat them seriously.

If you are not willing to dedicate the time to a team, you have less
influence, but there are still cases where project-level concerns
matter.
According to constitution section 8.3 delegates should attempt to follow
consensus opinion.  That means they have latitude to not follow
consensus opinion in some cases, but I think it would be reasonable for
us to carefully consider such situations.

That is, I think it would be unusual for a delegated team to act when
there is a project level consensus against their proposed action.  I
think it would be unusual for a delegated team not to adjust their
future actions in response to a project consensus to do so.

Of course, when we speak of consensus, we're almost always talking about
some rough consensus model.  You could rarely get a consensus of any
kind with a full consensus (positive support, no one at all raising an
objection they consider blocking) with the project as a whole.

I think that because of the strong presumption  that teams have
significant latitude, you'd need a fairly strong project level consensus
to counter that presumption.

The discussion of supporting Pride Month has not reached a rough
consensus that the publicity team should act differently under any rough
consensus model we're likely to consider plausible.  (The question of
whether there is a consensus in this discussion in favor of their
actions is more complex, but that is not the question that matters.)

If you are unable to get a consensus, you have a few other options:

* You can talk to the delegates about your concern.. You probably should
  have done this before the big consensus discussion anyway, but I'm too
  lazy to rearrange my message.

* If the DPL becomes convinced that delegates decisions are too far out
  of sync with the project's needs, the DPL can adjust the members of
  the team.  The DPL cannot overturn a specific decision, but alignment
  between project goals/needs and the goals/needs of the current
  delegate absolutely is something the DPL can consider when changing a
  delegation.  In this instance, I support the publicity and diversity
  teams.
  
  

* You can attempt to get sufficient support behind a project level
  policy.  That could be done by consensus too, although if you failed
  to get sufficient support on a single issue, you might not have so
  much luck there.  But you might have enough support to bring a
  proposed policy to vote in a GR.  Delegates are not strictly bound by
  any such policy, but again, they *should* follow them.  And it would
  be reasonable for the project and DPL to remove delegates who
  routinely ignored policy without adequate justification.  A GR
  establishing non-technical policy only requires a majority to pass;
  that's not going to be enough to be a consensus, but in some ways
  votes are more binding.

* And of course you can propose a GR trying to overrule the specific
  action or changing the delegation.

I think those are your options in a situation like this.
I hope that gives you a sense of empowerment.  Even if you cannot get
sufficient support on this issue, there's a clear path by which if a
team got too far disconnected from what the project wanted it could be
adjusted.

--Sam

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#10660

Colin Watson - 02.07.19, 12:25:
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:07:39AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Actually I felt something like similar like this myself before (not
> > related to the pridemonth thing). There still a lot of oppression of
> > women and a lack of progress on equal pay for equal work and so on…
> > I
> > acknowledge that. On the other hand with everything around feminism…
> > I sometimes wondered "So as a male I cannot have any feelings of
> > being excluded or unwelcome cause I am a member of a dominant
> > group"? What if, just what if I do not buy into that crap, but I am
> > still made a member of a group I do not identify with? This is
> > violence as well. And beware if I would even be a white male. Then
> > I better shut up, cause… I am a member of that dominant, violent,
> > aggressive group. But what if, just what if not every white,
> > heterosexual male is violent or aggressive? I even asked myself
> > whether I would even be a man if I cannot see me as a member of
> > that group.
> 
> [Yet another straight cis white man writing here.]
> 
> It's of course true that Not All Men (etc.) are individually
> oppressive, dominant, violent, rich, and so on.  A lot of people get
> hung up on that, and I can understand why.  But this isn't really the
> point that feminists and other people working for greater equality in
> society are generally making.  The point of identifying privileged
> groups is to point out that, on average, members of those groups have
> an easier time than people who aren't in those groups.  And it's
> really important to notice that this is not solely about how you see
> yourself, but about how others react to you for things you can't
> reasonably control.

I get that.

But on the other hand I am not average if that is possible at all and I 
never have been.

[…]
> If you feel that Debian should hold itself aloof from this and strive
> to be apolitical and solely about technology, then I understand your

No. I did not make a statement about this at all.

> position and used to sympathise with it myself, and I'm sure we can
> work together in other ways, but we aren't likely to agree on this
> one.  I'd ask that other straight white men in Debian who feel
> aggrieved by the promotion of other identities and appearances take a
> step back and try to think about why you're aggrieved.  Are you
> really being systematically underprivileged in the sorts of ways that 
> other groups often are? […]

Rather than assuming on what I could mean, I kindly ask you to relate to 
what I actually have written.

Whether Debian supports pridemonth or any other group or event… I 
believe it is important to acknowledge that people may feel less welcome 
if its not made equally clear that all contributors are welcome here.

There have been people feeling marginalized or unwelcome due to this and 
I believe its important to at least acknowledge that. Its not invalid 
cause its coming from people whom you could call privileged.

Mind you, I did not. I do not have an opinion about pridemonth as I do 
not know much about it.

I'd rather really stop putting people into boxes, cause my experience 
is: People do not fit in any boxes.

-- 
Martin

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#10664

Hi all,

Le Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:25:41AM +0100, Colin Watson a écrit :
> 
> point out that, on average, members of those groups have an easier time

Le Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 03:26:37PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
> 
> if there are gestures we could make that would make those people feel
> welcome, I'm all in favor.

I really wish to not be categorised, and to not be averaged.  I have not
joined Debian for that.

We can support members of our community with actions like the Pride
event on our website.  That is reaaly great and I wish to see more of
such events in the future!

We will divide ourselves by categorising and lecturing on what we
perceive as negative in each other, especially on email list media which
are extremely efficient at forstering misunderstandings.

In line with our Diversity statement, there is a lot that can be said
positively and effectively to make everybody feel safe and proud,
without putting other developers in a catch-all category that they did
not choose.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Akano, Uruma, Okinawa, Japan

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#10632

>>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:

    >> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
    >> the most meaningful within the Debian context.

    Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
    Adrian> dangerous.

Absolutely.
I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
of making a great free software operating system for our users.
And link back to our priorities of our users and free software.
In this instance, the link is obvious for me.
We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a
great free software operating system.

Our diversity and publicity teams have decided that supporting pride
month helps a part of our community feel more included.  By helping this
part of our community feel included we make it easier for them to
participate.  We let them know they matter.
And I at least believe that makes it easier for them to contribute and
thus we get a better operating system.

I do think that linking any political action back to our goals and not
letting our mission drift is important.
I don't think we do that enough.
It's just that in this instance I personally think the action is
justified.

    Adrian> If Debian as a project is making general political
    Adrian> statements, then having a Debconf in Israel without a strong
    Adrian> public message regarding the situation of the Palestinian
    Adrian> people would make Debian appear to fully support the Israeli
    Adrian> side.

I certainly think we should be making an extra effort to welcome
Palestinian people to our project especially given the Debconf 20
decision.
People are hurt by the Debconf 20 decision, and  I think part of
respecting them is to acknowledge pain that our decision has caused and
to be as welcoming as we can.

    Adrian> Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem
    Adrian> with Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.

Yep, absolutely.

    Adrian> Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome
    Adrian> in Debian, and so are contributors from countries where
    Adrian> homosexuality is illegal.

    Adrian> But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians
    Adrian> position on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue
    Adrian> for discussions on project mailing lists and in GRs.

I disagree with that.  I do think that our position on how that conflict
affects the Debconf venue selection is appropriate for project lists
where debconf venue selection is on-topic.


    Adrian> The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be
    Adrian> overridden by GR.

Yes.
There would be a high cost to doing that, but yes it can.

    Adrian> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a
    Adrian> purely technical project and abstain from making any
    Adrian> political statements, except ones strongly related to being
    Adrian> a Linux distribution.

The easy and painful way.


--Sam

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#10634

On 01/07/2019 18:22, Sam Hartman wrote:
>>>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
> 
>     >> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
>     >> the most meaningful within the Debian context.
> 
>     Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
>     Adrian> dangerous.
> 
> Absolutely.
> I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
> of making a great free software operating system for our users.
> And link back to our priorities of our users and free software.
> In this instance, the link is obvious for me.
> We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a
> great free software operating system.
> 
> Our diversity and publicity teams have decided that supporting pride
> month helps a part of our community feel more included.  By helping this
> part of our community feel included we make it easier for them to
> participate.  We let them know they matter.
> And I at least believe that makes it easier for them to contribute and
> thus we get a better operating system.
> 
> I do think that linking any political action back to our goals and not
> letting our mission drift is important.
> I don't think we do that enough.
> It's just that in this instance I personally think the action is
> justified.
> 
>     Adrian> If Debian as a project is making general political
>     Adrian> statements, then having a Debconf in Israel without a strong
>     Adrian> public message regarding the situation of the Palestinian
>     Adrian> people would make Debian appear to fully support the Israeli
>     Adrian> side.
> 
> I certainly think we should be making an extra effort to welcome
> Palestinian people to our project especially given the Debconf 20
> decision.
> People are hurt by the Debconf 20 decision, and  I think part of
> respecting them is to acknowledge pain that our decision has caused and
> to be as welcoming as we can.
> 
>     Adrian> Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem
>     Adrian> with Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.
> 
> Yep, absolutely.
> 
>     Adrian> Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome
>     Adrian> in Debian, and so are contributors from countries where
>     Adrian> homosexuality is illegal.
> 
>     Adrian> But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians
>     Adrian> position on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue
>     Adrian> for discussions on project mailing lists and in GRs.
> 
> I disagree with that.  I do think that our position on how that conflict
> affects the Debconf venue selection is appropriate for project lists
> where debconf venue selection is on-topic.
> 
> 
>     Adrian> The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be
>     Adrian> overridden by GR.
> 
> Yes.
> There would be a high cost to doing that, but yes it can.
> 
>     Adrian> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a
>     Adrian> purely technical project and abstain from making any
>     Adrian> political statements, except ones strongly related to being
>     Adrian> a Linux distribution.
> 
> The easy and painful way.
> 
> 
> --Sam
> 
Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor announces
she is trans.

Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in every
social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless and with every
good wish, as ever,

Andy C.

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