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Groups > linux.debian.project > #10604 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200 |
| Last post | 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 94 — 39 participants |
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Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
What can I do if I disagree with a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200
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| From | Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Debian supports pridemonth? |
| Message-ID | <ydVZn-2qr-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
Hello all, I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ : "In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity " May I please ask who decided that and where was it discussed? (I can't find anything about it at least on -project.) I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there isn't a clear consensus. Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten me) or do others share my concern? Thanks Gerardo (Not subscribed, please keep me Cc:d)
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| From | Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydWsq-2zy-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10604 |
On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote: > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of > events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that > Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of > course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if > that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there > isn't a clear consensus. > > Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten > me) or do others share my concern? Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. As far as I understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there. Debian isn't aligning itself with any specific political movement here so I think in that context, it's really a non-issue. Even if it were, there are going to be places where you're going to have to pick sides when protecting basic freedoms become political. This one is very uncomplicated though. -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
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| From | Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydXHP-3ez-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10605 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:29:55PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote: > > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one > > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of > > events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that > > Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of > > course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if > > that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there > > isn't a clear consensus. > > I personally think that a public statement such as this should at least have been discussed among the project members prior to being made public. > > Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten > > me) or do others share my concern? > > Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. In other discussions Russ Allbery has articulated the entanglement between Debian's objectives as a project and "politics" in various forms (i.e., is Debian and/or free software inherently political?). He did a far better job explaining it than I ever could so I will not try to replicate the discussion here, but my recollection is that he concluded that in some ways being political cannot be avoided. > As far as I > understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and > letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept > people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our > current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there. > I understand it to be generally the same as well. Looking at the history of vote.debian.org there have been GRs for far less consequential matters. To say that this one did not at least merit a "by the way fellow Debian community members, next week the project plans to announce blah blah blah" is perhaps not consistent with the principle and goal of transparency that we uphold. If this really is such a minor issue, I would like to offer some suggestions for ways in which we can further strengthen our "shared stance against bigotry and letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept people from a wide variety of walks of life." Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US, not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be drastically underrepresented in the community). We already missed Black Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for Europe and will come round again in February in the US. Blacks, or African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community. Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles). In addition to being underrepresensted, all of those groups have at times in history experienced bigotry and persecution comparable to (if not exceeding) that which became the genesis of pride observances within the LGBT community. > Debian isn't aligning itself with any specific political movement here > so I think in that context, it's really a non-issue. Even if it were, > there are going to be places where you're going to have to pick sides > when protecting basic freedoms become political. This one is very > uncomplicated though. > Agreed. This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups. I hope that we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance. There are sure to be other groups which I have overlooked and hope that additional suggestions are forthcoming from others. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydY1c-3AE-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10607 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54:34AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > Agreed. This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for > Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups. I hope that > we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance. There are > sure to be other groups which I have overlooked and hope that additional > suggestions are forthcoming from others. How much will being enthusiastic for various underrepresented communities make the people who care about Free Software and an Universal Operating System underrepresented in Debian? Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in the year? Greetings Marc, caring about technology -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yed0d-4nU-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10608 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 8:10 PM Marc Haber wrote: > Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in > the year? I think it would be great to co-ordinate a "Free Software Month" with the wider Free Software community. Debian has participated in the FSFE's "I ♥ Free Software" campaign several times over the years: https://fsfe.org/campaigns/ilovefs/ https://micronews.debian.org/2019/1550183325.html https://micronews.debian.org/2018/1518627115.html https://bits.debian.org/2016/02/ilovefs-2016.html -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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| From | Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yejfj-8fk-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10608 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 02:09:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54:34AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > Agreed. This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for > > Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups. I hope that > > we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance. There are > > sure to be other groups which I have overlooked and hope that additional > > suggestions are forthcoming from others. > > How much will being enthusiastic for various underrepresented > communities make the people who care about Free Software and an > Universal Operating System underrepresented in Debian? > > Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in > the year? > > Greetings > Marc, caring about technology > I think that I understand that. So I shut up and gonna care what I care about. And yes, there is much in which we commonly care about. Groeten Geert Stappers -- Leven en laten leven
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ye4gh-7cL-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10607 |
Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes: > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US, > not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a > public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be > drastically underrepresented in the community). We already missed Black > Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for > Europe and will come round again in February in the US. Blacks, or > African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community. > Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin > during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles). I think this would be great. Explicitly saying to our various communities on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I fully support it. My employer does this for four or five of the events that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very welcome. The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the relevant community in Debian take the lead. That also avoids the occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to time because humans are complicated. So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should do for Hispanic Heritage Month, and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ye80x-YB-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10617 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes: > > > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US, > > not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a > > public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be > > drastically underrepresented in the community). We already missed Black > > Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for > > Europe and will come round again in February in the US. Blacks, or > > African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community. > > > Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin > > during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles). > > I think this would be great. Explicitly saying to our various communities > on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and > supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I > fully support it. My employer does this for four or five of the events > that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very > welcome. > > The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line > somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are > days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the > relevant community in Debian take the lead. That also avoids the > occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that > is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to > time because humans are complicated. > > So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian > should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should > do for Hispanic Heritage Month, and so forth, since they're the experts on > what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context. > That's very reasonable. -- Roberto C. Sánchez
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| From | Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yf7F7-665-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10617 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> > not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a
> > public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
> > drastically underrepresented in the community). We already missed Black
> > Heritage Month this year in the US, but it is coming in October for
> > Europe and will come round again in February in the US. Blacks, or
> > African-Americans, are similarly underrepresented in the community.
>
> > Perhaps we could also show support for Jews and those of Jewish origin
> > during one of the principal festivals (Passover, Weeks, or Tabernacles).
>
> I think this would be great. Explicitly saying to our various communities
> on days of significance to that community that they are welcome and
> supported in Debian seems like a warm-hearted and open gesture, and I
> fully support it. My employer does this for four or five of the events
> that are the most significant to company employees, and it's always very
> welcome.
>
> The criteria I'd use (because we do have to draw some sort of line
> somewhere, since there are more days or months like this than there are
> days and months in the year if you look hard enough) is to let the
> relevant community in Debian take the lead. That also avoids the
> occasional issues where there is some supposed recognition of a group that
> is controversial or unwanted within that group, which happens from time to
> time because humans are complicated.
>
> So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian
> should do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should
> do for Hispanic Heritage Month,
Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?
It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country,
but for the other 95% of the population of this planet they
are just people with the privilege of living in the US.
> and so forth, since they're the experts on
> what they would find the most meaningful within the Debian context.
Debian having a position on general political issues can be dangerous.
Let's talk about the BDS community in Debian and Debconf 2020.
If Debian as a project is making general political statements, then
having a Debconf in Israel without a strong public message regarding the
situation of the Palestinian people would make Debian appear to fully
support the Israeli side.
Just like many LGBTQ project members might have a problem with
Debconf in a country where homosexuality is illegal.
Most people from Israel are nice people and clearly welcome in Debian,
and so are contributors from countries where homosexuality is illegal.
But if Debian does make political statements, then Debians position
on the Israeli-Palestine conflict is a valid issue for discussions on
project mailing lists and in GRs.
The decision that Debconf 2020 will be in Israel can be overridden by GR.
The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a purely technical
project and abstain from making any political statements, except ones
strongly related to being a Linux distribution.
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yf889-6vM-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10628 |
Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes: > Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race? Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful to them. To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award. We do things like this because we are not a computer program. We are a community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who want to celebrate and support and welcome each other. > It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, but for > the other 95% of the population of this planet they are just people with > the privilege of living in the US. They are Debian project members. That's the part that matters. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yf8Bb-6FJ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10629 |
Hi Russ, others, I must admit that I do support Pride Month but I was a bit uncomfortable that this was not discussed among wider Debian community. More on points below! On 7/1/19 7:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes: > >> Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race? > Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful > to them. To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the > death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member > on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award. And, already obviously there is part of community that feels uneasy about it. I am fine with and we should acknowledge what our members do (we acknowledge good parts and we should clearly state against bad parts (such as banning devs for hostile behavior)) but I honestly don't think that we should promote something that is important for one part of population (which some of our members are). As stated from others, we then become too much political and while first and foremost, we are community of people, we were to this point community of people that gathers around of idea of software freedom. That can imply that we are quite liberal in nature (and we do have a welcoming diversity statement), we should be careful to easily slip into more political context because we will always end up choosing sides (we even didn't do that but we all saw how choosing Israel for DebConf was taken by some Arab/Muslim members/users). > > We do things like this because we are not a computer program. We are a > community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who > want to celebrate and support and welcome each other. > >> It might make sense for you to honor them inside your country, but for >> the other 95% of the population of this planet they are just people with >> the privilege of living in the US. > They are Debian project members. That's the part that matters. > In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other nation, same goes for race and religion. So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes (it affects all human kind) Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups. That said, I like celebrations (good way to find out about different cultures/things), so maybe, just maybe we could have these things still being issued by Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like "Debian Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and then some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative and fun IMHO. Just my 2c, Z
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfa0i-7ES-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10630 |
Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> writes: > In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is > basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things > that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride > Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific > racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for > multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate > holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other > nation, same goes for race and religion. > So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes > (it affects all human kind) > Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are > specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for > that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups. I wonder if this may be a cultural difference (and by saying that, I want to stress that means that I think different members of the project will arrive at different conclusions entirely in good faith, and there's no real objective right or wrong). For example, my employer (Dropbox, for what it's worth, but I think this is common among a lot of our peer companies) celebrates Black, Hispanic, and Asian and Pacific Islander months (and I'm pretty sure others that aren't occuring to me), along with things like Diwali, Ramadan, and Passover (and of course Christmas and Easter), all in different ways. These are generally self-organized by employees for whom these events are meaningful, they're entirely optional, and they focus on talking about food, heritage, art, personal history, and other similar things that vary in their specifics but unite us as humans. The point of this is to recognize that people are different and bring those differences to the workplace as part of their whole selves, people don't have to fit into a single model or mold, and learning about other people and the things they find meaningful is inherently interesting and broadens perspective and helps us all work together more smoothly. This is a fair amount of work (I don't know that Debian should try to tackle that many events unless members of our community are asking), and it does require a bit of effort to be thoughtful about how to organize such events, but I think it's valuable. But that's my cultural background; that's the sort of thing that I'm used to, so when it comes up in the Debian context, that's the spirit in which I take it. Other folks may have much different personal experiences and therefore may take it in different ways. This may be something that's literally never done in your workplaces or in your society, and thus something that seems strange or unnecessary. However, I *don't* think that saying we therefore shouldn't ever touch any of these topics is either workable or wise. Like it or not, humans are inherently political (political comes from the root word polis, or public life, which is unavoidable whenever there is a public). For people coming from a culture where this sort of acknowledgement is common, *not* acknowledging someone's meaningful celebrations is *also* a political statement, particularly if it's done because someone's culture is deemed "controversial." There is no easy default action here; we're a large enough project with a large enough community that we have to wrestle with this in one way or another. Anyway, personally I'd rather err on the side of *more* celebration of the diversity of people in the Debian project, including noting meaningful days and events for them, because I think it says something important about our community. It says that we're a world-wide community of people from a huge variety of backgrounds and interests, and that diversity is also reflected in our huge diversity of packages and the universality of our operating system. > That said, I like celebrations (good way to find out about different > cultures/things), so maybe, just maybe we could have these things still > being issued by Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like > "Debian Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and > then some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative > and fun IMHO. This is, for what it's worth, roughly what US corporations tend to do. (Personally, I think we should always strive to be better than a typical corporation, not being much of a personal fan of capitalism, but they do spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to navigate these sorts of things among large numbers of humans who are forced together by something largely unrelated to their personal backgrounds.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfrua-1de-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10635 |
On 7/1/19 9:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> writes: > >> In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is >> basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things >> that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride >> Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific >> racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for >> multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate >> holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other >> nation, same goes for race and religion. >> So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes >> (it affects all human kind) >> Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are >> specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for >> that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups. > I wonder if this may be a cultural difference (and by saying that, I want > to stress that means that I think different members of the project will > arrive at different conclusions entirely in good faith, and there's no > real objective right or wrong). In my case, it might be very well the cultural difference but I learn and grow every day, so it is always welcome to get nice responses at topics that might confuse people. > > For example, my employer (Dropbox, for what it's worth, but I think this > is common among a lot of our peer companies) celebrates Black, Hispanic, > and Asian and Pacific Islander months (and I'm pretty sure others that > aren't occuring to me), along with things like Diwali, Ramadan, and > Passover (and of course Christmas and Easter), all in different ways. > These are generally self-organized by employees for whom these events are > meaningful, they're entirely optional, and they focus on talking about > food, heritage, art, personal history, and other similar things that vary > in their specifics but unite us as humans. The point of this is to > recognize that people are different and bring those differences to the > workplace as part of their whole selves, people don't have to fit into a > single model or mold, and learning about other people and the things they > find meaningful is inherently interesting and broadens perspective and > helps us all work together more smoothly. Companies are doing that lately, imo, because of peer pressure to do it as they could also loose profit in it. Not saying all companies do (and most small-medium tech companies seem to do because they really want) but many do and that is what brought to creation of People's Pride Month while we are at it. Sorry my ignorance, does Dropbox write blog posts about such celebrations and change its logo? Also Debian is a worldwide community, so we are not in office where people could invest time to prepare celebrations which would be super visible to others. That said, yes, we can do better blogging. > > This is a fair amount of work (I don't know that Debian should try to > tackle that many events unless members of our community are asking), and > it does require a bit of effort to be thoughtful about how to organize > such events, but I think it's valuable. But that's my cultural > background; that's the sort of thing that I'm used to, so when it comes up > in the Debian context, that's the spirit in which I take it. > > Other folks may have much different personal experiences and therefore may > take it in different ways. This may be something that's literally never > done in your workplaces or in your society, and thus something that seems > strange or unnecessary. I work remotely almost my entire life, so I can't really speak about it but as country, except major religious events for nations that are majority here, you are correct, we don't. This indeed is cultural things as we are not very multicultural from where I come sadly so celebrating anything else wouldn't take an echo. > > However, I *don't* think that saying we therefore shouldn't ever touch any > of these topics is either workable or wise. Like it or not, humans are > inherently political (political comes from the root word polis, or public > life, which is unavoidable whenever there is a public). For people coming > from a culture where this sort of acknowledgement is common, *not* > acknowledging someone's meaningful celebrations is *also* a political > statement, particularly if it's done because someone's culture is deemed > "controversial." There is no easy default action here; we're a large > enough project with a large enough community that we have to wrestle with > this in one way or another. > > Anyway, personally I'd rather err on the side of *more* celebration of the > diversity of people in the Debian project, including noting meaningful > days and events for them, because I think it says something important > about our community. It says that we're a world-wide community of people > from a huge variety of backgrounds and interests, and that diversity is > also reflected in our huge diversity of packages and the universality of > our operating system. These sections and your next mail (which was absolutely superior in response, I just love reading your mails) made me clearly realize your points. While I never said points other raised, not did I imply that we need "White Male" celebration, it did resonate with me what not doing one or doing other or even taking neutral path and avoiding entirely this would mean. Maybe I am still getting it wrong, but now I support the view that we need to more prominently show that we are a happy place and that we love having diversity as community (and Debian, like it or not, has grown over being a small hobby software project). > >> That said, I like celebrations (good way to find out about different >> cultures/things), so maybe, just maybe we could have these things still >> being issued by Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like >> "Debian Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and >> then some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative >> and fun IMHO. > This is, for what it's worth, roughly what US corporations tend to do. > (Personally, I think we should always strive to be better than a typical > corporation, not being much of a personal fan of capitalism, but they do > spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to navigate these sorts of > things among large numbers of humans who are forced together by something > largely unrelated to their personal backgrounds.) Again, I think they are doing this mostly for peer pressure, the same way in past companies that maybe would do right thing, didn't because political climate was different. Anyway, thanks Russ and others on good replies to this topic. Indeed, my opinion changed and I would be very happy to see more prominent celebrations of minorities and marginalized groups of people so we can level at least Debian for them while entire society comes to that point. Cheers, Z P.S. I just today realized that Debian Diversity logo is the same one used for celebrating Pride Month, that is actually very nice
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| From | Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfcbM-sT-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10629 |
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 10:10:53AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?
>
> Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
> to them. To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the
> death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a project member
> on a major life milestone, or celebrate a project member winning an award.
>
> We do things like this because we are not a computer program. We are a
> community of living, breathing people who care about each other and who
> want to celebrate and support and welcome each other.
>...
It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are
excluded from being welcomed.
Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
White heterosexual men are also living, breathing people,
and they might actually be a majority of contributors.
Many people are offended by the fact that it is always
the same groups that are being welcomed.
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfcY9-YF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10637 |
Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes: > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from being > welcomed. > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men? Do you think people with those attributes have been made systematically unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger world of computing? Speaking as a white heterosexual man, I feel very welcomed every day, which means that there's very little need for any special effort to make sure I know I'm welcomed. Literally the entire structure of society does that for me, constantly. I would like to pass the feeling on to others who do not have that constant background feeling in their life. The specific answer to your question is that context matters. A month of white heterosexual men, in the context of world politics at this time, is not about welcoming anyone. It's about declaring whiteness, heterosexuality, and maleness as the dominant default and everyone else as lesser, disguised in bad faith as a parody of welcoming. This sort of nuance can't just be handwaved away. That is, however, specific to your chosen example. If you'd picked a different example -- people for whom English is not their first language, for instance -- you may find I agree with you entirely. I *don't* think such folks are always made welcome, and I'd love to see some celebration in the project of the effort and thought that so many of our contributors put into working on a project in a non-native language, particularly if they would find some awareness and recognition from the rest of the project meaningful. In other words, I don't believe anyone is being made unwelcome *for being white, heterosexual, or male*. I do believe that there are people in our project who are white, heterosexual, and male, and feel unwelcome. To me, those are very different things, and if there are gestures we could make that would make those people feel welcome, I'm all in favor. But I don't believe celebrating *specifically* their whiteness, heterosexuality, or maleness would be effective except to the degree that it's a coded political message that we definitely don't want to send. I strongly suspect that the root of the concern is not that people feel like they're being made unwelcome because of their personal attributes, but rather that they feel like they're being made unwelcome for their political beliefs. *That*, unfortunately, is a much larger problem that I doubt we're going to be able to comprehensively solve because, among other things, it's mutual. I wouldn't be surprised if you felt like I'm currently making you feel unwelcome for your political beliefs; you may be surprised to know that you are currently making *me* feel unwelcome for my political beliefs. I don't have a solution for that other than both of us just living with it, and trying not to poke at each other too hard, but I'm not willing to cede celebrating Pride for our LGBTQ+ members as "poking" in this context. > Many people are offended by the fact that it is always the same groups > that are being welcomed. My default stance is to be happy for people when the project does something that they find meaningful and supportive. If some people get a lot of support, that's wonderful -- I think everyone *should* get a lot of support. If someone is *not* getting the support they need, that's a problem that hopefully we can address, but thinking of it as a zero-sum game where we can't support some people if we want to support other people is just not at all how I look at it. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfmuu-6It-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10638 |
Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26: > Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes: > > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from > > being welcomed. > > > > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men? > > Do you think people with those attributes have been made > systematically unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger > world of computing? How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their appearance? How about "all is welcome here"? Of course that does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It is of course important to set healthy boundaries by having a netiquette and/or a code of conduct that makes sense and actually enforce it. Love it not license. I can still love someone and set boundaries. I can still love someone and leave or ask them to leave. How about even extending that month of welcoming *all* contributors to… quite a long time? How about looking at what is needed to make *all* contributors be welcome here? Best, -- Martin
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| From | Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfmNP-6Pt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10646 |
On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their > appearance? > > How about "all is welcome here"? That's basically our default state, so you could basically say we do that every month. The reason that certain groups of people (women, lgbt people, disadvantaged people (based on race, location, etc) and so on) gets some special attention is that they have been historically marginalized and in many countries that's still even the case. The idea behind diversity isn't diversity for diversity's sake as some would like to allude to, but it's about inclusivity and about human rights. And sure, when it comes to human rights it's going to get a little political, as an individual I make the choice to deal with that because it's important to me that my fellow human beings get to have the same rights and access to the same opportunities that I do. Many in the Debian project feel the same way and that it aligns well with the ethos of the project. As for a literal "all is welcome here", that gets more complicated because people who go against our ethos aren't welcome here. If someone is a bigot and wants to spew out hatred and propaganda on our platforms, I'll be one of the first to make a call that they be kicked out. This doesn't at all meant that people can't have their own opinion or should be afraid to voice it. But there are those of us that want to make this world a better place for future generations so that they can both live and thrive in it, but then there are those regressionists who will insist on every bad choice possible to set us back as a species. I have no problem to call these people out, and if they want to be a crybaby and a snowflake about it and go "boo I don't like politics" every time that they are proven to be wrong about their views and still insist to double down on those, then I'm certainly not going to waste any sympathy on them. -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfngR-7eE-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10647 |
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:54:08AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their > > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their > > appearance? > > > > How about "all is welcome here"? > > That's basically our default state, so you could basically say we do > that every month. I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity / antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner. I do feel that Debian has lost its goal of creating superior technology for just being the umpteenth organization that cares more about supporting minorities. > As for a literal "all is welcome here", that gets more complicated > because people who go against our ethos aren't welcome here. If someone > is a bigot and wants to spew out hatred and propaganda on our platforms, > I'll be one of the first to make a call that they be kicked out. Amen. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfnAd-7l8-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10651 |
On 2019/07/02 11:26, Marc Haber wrote: > I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity / > antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner. How so regarding diversity/antiharassment/CoC? They do nothing to threaten or downgrade the importance of any Debian contributor. > I do feel that Debian has lost its goal of creating superior technology > for just being the umpteenth organization that cares more about > supporting minorities. Technical excellence and inclusion aren't opposing points on a slider, in fact, they walk hand in hand. Being inclusive is also not about 'supporting minorities' as some would like to allude. Many different kinds of bad people are also minorities and we don't care about those. The idea behind things like our diversity statement is to let marginalized people know that they are welcome in the project and if something or someone gives them the opposite impression, then they can be assured that it doesn't reflect the views of the project. -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
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| From | John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yftcB-2hP-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10653 |
On Tue, Jul 02 2019, Jonathan Carter wrote: > On 2019/07/02 11:26, Marc Haber wrote: >> I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity / >> antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner. > > How so regarding diversity/antiharassment/CoC? They do nothing to > threaten or downgrade the importance of any Debian contributor. If you look back in the Debian archives from 20 years ago, you'll find that I often participated in conversations here. Although I still read, I post maybe a few times a year nowadays. The reasons for that are many, but one huge one is: I came to decide I didn't have time for poisonous people anymore. And such people, while a minority, were particularly vocal and Debian historically gave them wide latitude. I for one appreciate our increased concern for these issues. Although I personally never took such comments as an expression of unwelcome towards me by the project as a whole, they significantly lowered the cost-benefit calculation of participating in Debian conversations for me. (Honest disagreement is to be expected and welcomed; but anti-social anger and trolling, not so much.) It has been a hard slog for this project, because freedom in all its manifestations is one of our values. We have come to realize that freedom to associate -- or not -- with people is also a freedom worth valuing.
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