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Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board

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  Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 11:20 +0100
    Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 11:50 +0100
      Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 18:40 +0100
    Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board José Vieira <jvieira33@sapo.pt> - 2021-03-26 14:50 +0100
    Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-03-26 17:50 +0100
      Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF  board Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2021-03-27 00:50 +0100

#12197 — Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board

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Hi,

> A General Resolution has been started about Richard Stallman's
> readmission to the FSF board.
> 
> It currently has 1 available options, but other proposals have been suggested.

I explicitly do NOT support this GR.

My opinion, as laid out at
https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2285:

8><------------------------------------------------------------------
With the FSFE freezing its collaboration with the FSF, projects
signing open letters to effectively disassemble the FSF and the GNU
project altogether, it seems we are officially at war.

With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by Richard
Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively affected by his
views — every single such person has to be heard, their fears and
sorrows been taken into account, and appropriate action been taken.
As such, I am in full support of requiring the FSF board to instate
an investigation committee, take letters from anyone affected, and
hear these cases (including rms' position).

What I do not support is forcing the disintegration of the FOSS
community, even less in such crucial times. The COVID pandemic forces
evryone to digitise the hell out of them and their organisations, and
every action that weakens the FOSS movement in this ciritical process
certainly does more harm to the ecosystem than a single person on any
FOSS body's board ever could. Thus, I consider those responsible for
this, in my opinion, thoughtless action harmful to the FOSS ecosystem.

As already said, I am in full support of an investigation committee,
and would immediately sign an open letter requesting the FSF to
instate one (including a helpful list of requirements for this committee).

Thanks for listening!

P.S.: On a side note, hosting this thing on GitHub, which explicitly
discriminates against parts of the community and is itself harmful to
the FOSS ecosystem as a whole, is at least a bit weird.
------------------------------------------------------------------><8


As such, I want to make the following amendment:

8><------------------------------------------------------------------
Choice 2
========

The Debian Project does not co-sign the statement regarding Richard
Stallman's readmission to the FSF board seen at
https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md

In its role as an important body in the free software world, the
Project has made its members aware of the situation, and respects the
opinion of all of its members. In doing so, every member is free to
sign the statement, or to not do so.

The Debian Project make an official statement, along the lines of:

* We have learnt about rms being readmitted to the FSF board
* We are aware of critical voices regarding the person known as rms,
  and we take every single report very serously
* Everyone who is affected by any action, opinion or statement of
  rms can ask the Debian Anti Harassment team for support, and
  the Anti Harassment team will suppor tthem in communicating with
  the FSF and ensure their concerns are addresses
* The Debian Project supports the instatement of an investigation
  committee regarding all accusations against rms and asks the
  FSF board to take such action, in close cooperation with other
  organisations and in full transparency
------------------------------------------------------------------><8

Kind regards,
Nik

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#12198

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Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 11:05:26+0100, Dominik George a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> > A General Resolution has been started about Richard Stallman's
> > readmission to the FSF board.
> > 
> > It currently has 1 available options, but other proposals have been suggested.
> 
> I explicitly do NOT support this GR.
> 
> My opinion, as laid out at
> https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2285:
> 
> 8><------------------------------------------------------------------
> With the FSFE freezing its collaboration with the FSF, projects
> signing open letters to effectively disassemble the FSF and the GNU
> project altogether, it seems we are officially at war.
> 
> With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by Richard
> Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively affected by his
> views — every single such person has to be heard, their fears and
> sorrows been taken into account, and appropriate action been taken.
> As such, I am in full support of requiring the FSF board to instate
> an investigation committee, take letters from anyone affected, and
> hear these cases (including rms' position).
> 
> What I do not support is forcing the disintegration of the FOSS
> community, even less in such crucial times. The COVID pandemic forces
> evryone to digitise the hell out of them and their organisations, and
> every action that weakens the FOSS movement in this ciritical process
> certainly does more harm to the ecosystem than a single person on any
> FOSS body's board ever could. Thus, I consider those responsible for
> this, in my opinion, thoughtless action harmful to the FOSS ecosystem.
> 
> As already said, I am in full support of an investigation committee,
> and would immediately sign an open letter requesting the FSF to
> instate one (including a helpful list of requirements for this committee).
> 
> Thanks for listening!
> 
> P.S.: On a side note, hosting this thing on GitHub, which explicitly
> discriminates against parts of the community and is itself harmful to
> the FOSS ecosystem as a whole, is at least a bit weird.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------><8
> 
> 
> As such, I want to make the following amendment:
> 
> 8><------------------------------------------------------------------
> Choice 2
> ========
> 
> The Debian Project does not co-sign the statement regarding Richard
> Stallman's readmission to the FSF board seen at
> https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md
> 
> In its role as an important body in the free software world, the
> Project has made its members aware of the situation, and respects the
> opinion of all of its members. In doing so, every member is free to
> sign the statement, or to not do so.
> 
> The Debian Project make an official statement, along the lines of:
> 
> * We have learnt about rms being readmitted to the FSF board
> * We are aware of critical voices regarding the person known as rms,
>   and we take every single report very serously
> * Everyone who is affected by any action, opinion or statement of
>   rms can ask the Debian Anti Harassment team for support, and
>   the Anti Harassment team will suppor tthem in communicating with
>   the FSF and ensure their concerns are addresses
> * The Debian Project supports the instatement of an investigation
>   committee regarding all accusations against rms and asks the
>   FSF board to take such action, in close cooperation with other
>   organisations and in full transparency
> ------------------------------------------------------------------><8

Seconded.

Note: IDK yet if I'd vote for that choice, but I'm keen on having a fair
set of choices for this GR.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#12201

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Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 11:46:10+0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue a écrit :
> Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 11:05:26+0100, Dominik George a écrit :
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > A General Resolution has been started about Richard Stallman's
> > > readmission to the FSF board.
> > > 
> > > It currently has 1 available options, but other proposals have been suggested.
> > 
> > I explicitly do NOT support this GR.
> > 
> > My opinion, as laid out at
> > https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2285:
> > 
> > 8><------------------------------------------------------------------
> > With the FSFE freezing its collaboration with the FSF, projects
> > signing open letters to effectively disassemble the FSF and the GNU
> > project altogether, it seems we are officially at war.
> > 
> > With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by Richard
> > Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively affected by his
> > views — every single such person has to be heard, their fears and
> > sorrows been taken into account, and appropriate action been taken.
> > As such, I am in full support of requiring the FSF board to instate
> > an investigation committee, take letters from anyone affected, and
> > hear these cases (including rms' position).
> > 
> > What I do not support is forcing the disintegration of the FOSS
> > community, even less in such crucial times. The COVID pandemic forces
> > evryone to digitise the hell out of them and their organisations, and
> > every action that weakens the FOSS movement in this ciritical process
> > certainly does more harm to the ecosystem than a single person on any
> > FOSS body's board ever could. Thus, I consider those responsible for
> > this, in my opinion, thoughtless action harmful to the FOSS ecosystem.
> > 
> > As already said, I am in full support of an investigation committee,
> > and would immediately sign an open letter requesting the FSF to
> > instate one (including a helpful list of requirements for this committee).
> > 
> > Thanks for listening!
> > 
> > P.S.: On a side note, hosting this thing on GitHub, which explicitly
> > discriminates against parts of the community and is itself harmful to
> > the FOSS ecosystem as a whole, is at least a bit weird.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------><8
> > 
> > 
> > As such, I want to make the following amendment:
> > 
> > 8><------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Choice 2
> > ========
> > 
> > The Debian Project does not co-sign the statement regarding Richard
> > Stallman's readmission to the FSF board seen at
> > https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md
> > 
> > In its role as an important body in the free software world, the
> > Project has made its members aware of the situation, and respects the
> > opinion of all of its members. In doing so, every member is free to
> > sign the statement, or to not do so.
> > 
> > The Debian Project make an official statement, along the lines of:
> > 
> > * We have learnt about rms being readmitted to the FSF board
> > * We are aware of critical voices regarding the person known as rms,
> >   and we take every single report very serously
> > * Everyone who is affected by any action, opinion or statement of
> >   rms can ask the Debian Anti Harassment team for support, and
> >   the Anti Harassment team will suppor tthem in communicating with
> >   the FSF and ensure their concerns are addresses
> > * The Debian Project supports the instatement of an investigation
> >   committee regarding all accusations against rms and asks the
> >   FSF board to take such action, in close cooperation with other
> >   organisations and in full transparency
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------><8
> 
> Seconded.
> 
> Note: IDK yet if I'd vote for that choice, but I'm keen on having a fair
> set of choices for this GR.

After thinking to it more, I rescind my sponsorship for that amendment.

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#12199

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Seconded.

José Vieira

----- Mensagem de Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> ---------

  Data: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:05:26 +0100

  De: Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org>

  Assunto: Re: General Resolution: Richard Stallman's readmission to  
the FSF board

  Para: debian-vote@lists.debian.org

> Hi,
>
>> A General Resolution has been started about Richard Stallman's
>>
>>  readmission to the FSF board.
>>
>>
>>
>>  It currently has 1 available options, but other proposals have  
>> been suggested.
>
> I explicitly do NOT support this GR.
>
>
>
>  My opinion, as laid out at
>
>  https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2285:
>
>
>
>  8><------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  With the FSFE freezing its collaboration with the FSF, projects
>
>  signing open letters to effectively disassemble the FSF and the GNU
>
>  project altogether, it seems we are officially at war.
>
>
>
>  With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by Richard
>
>  Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively affected by his
>
>  views — every single such person has to be heard, their fears and
>
>  sorrows been taken into account, and appropriate action been taken.
>
>  As such, I am in full support of requiring the FSF board to instate
>
>  an investigation committee, take letters from anyone affected, and
>
>  hear these cases (including rms' position).
>
>
>
>  What I do not support is forcing the disintegration of the FOSS
>
>  community, even less in such crucial times. The COVID pandemic forces
>
>  evryone to digitise the hell out of them and their organisations, and
>
>  every action that weakens the FOSS movement in this ciritical process
>
>  certainly does more harm to the ecosystem than a single person on any
>
>  FOSS body's board ever could. Thus, I consider those responsible for
>
>  this, in my opinion, thoughtless action harmful to the FOSS ecosystem.
>
>
>
>  As already said, I am in full support of an investigation committee,
>
>  and would immediately sign an open letter requesting the FSF to
>
>  instate one (including a helpful list of requirements for this committee).
>
>
>
>  Thanks for listening!
>
>
>
>  P.S.: On a side note, hosting this thing on GitHub, which explicitly
>
>  discriminates against parts of the community and is itself harmful to
>
>  the FOSS ecosystem as a whole, is at least a bit weird.
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------><8
>
>
>
>
>
>  As such, I want to make the following amendment:
>
>
>
>  8><------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Choice 2
>
>  ========
>
>
>
>  The Debian Project does not co-sign the statement regarding Richard
>
>  Stallman's readmission to the FSF board seen at
>
>   
> https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md
>
>
>
>  In its role as an important body in the free software world, the
>
>  Project has made its members aware of the situation, and respects the
>
>  opinion of all of its members. In doing so, every member is free to
>
>  sign the statement, or to not do so.
>
>
>
>  The Debian Project make an official statement, along the lines of:
>
>
>
>  * We have learnt about rms being readmitted to the FSF board
>
>  * We are aware of critical voices regarding the person known as rms,
>
>  and we take every single report very serously
>
>  * Everyone who is affected by any action, opinion or statement of
>
>  rms can ask the Debian Anti Harassment team for support, and
>
>  the Anti Harassment team will suppor tthem in communicating with
>
>  the FSF and ensure their concerns are addresses
>
>  * The Debian Project supports the instatement of an investigation
>
>  committee regarding all accusations against rms and asks the
>
>  FSF board to take such action, in close cooperation with other
>
>  organisations and in full transparency
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------><8
>
>
>
>  Kind regards,Nik

----- Fim da mensagem de Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> -----

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#12200

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>>>>> "Dominik" == Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> writes:

    Dominik> With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by
    Dominik> Richard Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively
    Dominik> affected by his views — every single such person has to be
    Dominik> heard, their fears and sorrows been taken into account, and
    Dominik> appropriate action been taken.  As such, I am in full
    Dominik> support of requiring the FSF board to instate an
    Dominik> investigation committee, take letters from anyone affected,
    Dominik> and hear these cases (including rms' position).


The problem is that for good reason, we no longer trust the FSF under
its current governance to do that.  What you are affectively asking
people to do is to pursue justice in regard to things rms did in a forum
where rms has much more power than they do and where rms (and the voting
members of the fsf) have demonstrated they will use that power in non
equitible ways.

Given how rms returned to the board, how can you possibly think those
people will get a fair hearing.

I think I may disagree with this option even more than the support rms
open letter option.

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#12202

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Hi,

> The problem is that for good reason, we no longer trust the FSF under
> its current governance to do that.  What you are affectively asking
> people to do is to pursue justice in regard to things rms did in a forum
> where rms has much more power than they do and where rms (and the voting
> members of the fsf) have demonstrated they will use that power in non
> equitible ways.
> 
> Given how rms returned to the board, how can you possibly think those
> people will get a fair hearing.

Obviously, such a committee would have to be instated in a transparent
way and in close cooperation with people and organisations not
involved with rms otherwise. I do think that this is possible by both
having the current FSF board start such action, but not take control
of it.

An investigation committee consisting of the FSF board, or solely
people nominated by them, of course has no value.

-nik

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