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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #117485 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200 |
| Last post | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Articles | 8 on this page of 148 — 37 participants |
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New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re: New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Page 8 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8]
| From | "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KYOQF-bj5g-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117708 |
On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:15:55PM +0300, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
> I've seen some of this same sentiment in discussions about
> bugs.debian.org. People think that having a hard-to-use bug tracker
> will keep the "noobs" away and maintain a higher quality of bug
> reports and discussions among the people who do pass the bar of
> figuring out how to use it. I think this is a very elitist attitude.
I have *definitely* see e2fsprogs and ext4 bug reports on Ubuntu and
kernel.bugzila.com and the problem is that (a) they are defnitely low
quality, and (b) there are a way more of them, and (c) I don't have
the bandwidth to deal with them. It's not a matter of lesser-skilled
people not deserving help --- but I just that I don't *have* the time
to deal with it all.
Again, you can try shaming me for not helping everyone who asks for
help on a web based fora --- or you can do help do the root causing
and triaging and provide free support for low quality bug reports.
Hower, the reality is, I *tried* looking at the bug reports, and I
just gave up, because I only have so much time, and if I'm trying to
help the most number of users, I consciously chose to focus on Debian
Bugs, because they are at least 3 to 5 times are more actionable.
If I'm helping out a Platinum user for $WORK, sometimes they send a
high quality bug report; and sometimes I have to spend days trying to
root cause their problem. But it's part of my day job, and I get paid
for it. (And, there is generally Level 3 support people who interface with the customer and who helps get the information I need.)
For my volunteer time, which sometimes happen after midnight, or on
weekends, or when I'm on vacation on a cruise, I get to be selective
with how I spend my time, and choosing not spend ten times as much
time on a vague or badly formed bug report, is not good for the open
source users that I help using my volunteer time.
If you want to change that, I invite you to help me triage bug reports
and support requests on web-based bug systems. You can help respond
with FAQ for things that aren't bug reports, or work with users to get
the necessary information ---- basically, to provide the Level 1 and
Level 2 help desk role. Those are real jobs, and they aren't my core
strengths, and I *just* don't have the time. In the past, I've
partnered with Level 3 support desk folks at IBM's Linux Technology
Center, and they are actually much better at eliciting information
from customers. I can *do* the equivalent of L3 help desk work when
responding to Debian Bug reports, but the professionals who do L3
support full-time actally can do it much better than me. But sorry, I
chose not to spend my limited volunteer time doing L1 and L2 help desk
work.
> Also, I see a lot of bugs that have low-quality participation exactly
> because participants got past the barrier of figuring out how to
> interact with it, but didn't figure out how to do it properly and for
> example attach metadata on what is the upstream bug report URL
> correctly.
That can happen, and I'll generally respond asking for more
information, and in general, I never hear from them again. There are
a few of those languishing in the Debian BTS, but mercifully, there
are very few. There are orders of magnitude of more such low-qulity
bug open for e2fsprogs on Launchpad, the last time I checked, and
sorry, I'm not going to volunteer to do that kind of bug tracker
grooming grooming.
If you want to have a low barrier of entry, that's fine --- but who is
going to do the L1 and L2 support work?
> Also, when you went from discussing the utility of reviews in e-mail
> vs Forges to talking about people who don't use e-mail *at all*, and
> then mention software development driven by TikTok and Instagram, I
> think this discussion probably has seen the best arguments and we can
> conclude here.
That was your argument, right? That contributors who don't want to
use e-mail will go away? And we can't have that. And so we need to
ask Debian Deveopers to change their workflow to accomodate those
contributors?
If people want to submit bugs or contrbute code on Sourceforge, or
Github, or Launchpad, or Salsa against e2fsprogs, great! But I'm not
going to feel obliged to respond to all of them. I will sometimes
look to see if their are some valid code contrbutions or valid bug
reports; but the *vast* majority (90% plus) of them are cr*p. And I
don't have time to deal with it all. If you want to volunteer to do
that work for e2fsprogs or ext4, let's talk. But please don't
volunteer *my* time. That's not fair.
- Ted
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| From | "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KYRYd-bl42-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117708 |
On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:15:55PM +0300, Otto Kekäläinen wrote: > You are aware that you can send e-mail to a MR on GitHub and to a PR > on GitLab and pretty much every Forge supports both email > notifications and email replies? > > The only feature currently missing in GitLab is to have the > notification of a new MR have the actual patch attached so people > using e-mail only can read it and reply directly. When there is a forge that will take a pull request with 20 commits, will send me 20 e-mails, one for each patch, and when I reply in-line with "here you didn't check an error return", and, "umm, isn't his an invitation to a buffer overrun attack" it gets translated into a comment for that particular line of code --- let me know. That would be great! > Yes, but as soon as you get the second or third contribution, the > ability to attribute the submissions to the same submitter with > higher guarantees will start to matter. It only matters if you are willing to let the 2nd or 3rd contribution get a lower level of code review. And if you do *that*, then all the attacker from the NSA or the Chiense Ministry of State Security needs to do is to send two valid contributions, and the the *third* contribution contains the backdoor. The reality is that even for someone that I know for over a decade, have met in person at least once a year, and I have exchanged GPG keys, they still might mistake that I'll catch in a code review. And sometimes I'll make a mistake that they will catch. Cryptographic signing doesn't protect you against mistakes. So while someone like Jan Kara or Darrick Wong *could* sign their e-mailed patches, they don't bother and I don't ask for it, because I'm *still* going to review their patches. And again, I ***hope*** Debian Developers are doing this, and not relying on cryptographic attestations, and just going Hurr, Durr. "OK, Git Pulled!" > I just merged a first-time contributor MR in > https://salsa.debian.org/salsa-ci-team/pipeline/-/merge_requests/614, > and I think it was good quality. I don't think that people who use MRs > are noobs and their quality is in general bad, and I don't think this > barrier of e-mail-only really helps drive up contribution quality. There *are* some first-time merge reqeusts that can be high quality; I'm not denying. However, *statistically*, there are far more crappy code reviews that I see on github compared to the ones that I receive via e-mail. And the ones that get sent via e-mail can get reviewed by a half-dozen people on the linux-ext4 mailing list. Things that get sent on github only get reviewed by me. So at least for the ext4 development comunity, the quality of e-mail versus Forge submissions is like night and day. Orders of magnitude worse. And as I mentioned in another e-mail, if you look at the quality of bugs on Ubuntu's Launchpad, or Sourceforge, or github, or kernel.bugzilla.org, versus the ones that get sent to linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, or to Debian BTS, again, my experience is that it is like night and day. Perhaps this is because for file systems, 9 times out of ten, a file system corruption is caused by hardware errors --- cabling, RAM, media errors, user pulling out the thumb drive, etc. So the vast majority of "bug reports" are really support requests where the problem was in the user configurtion. (And of course, most users don't keep backups....) So the vast majority of the bug reports don't have clean reproducers. And then there are the users who get confused when systemd creates a namespace, and so "unmount" doesn't actually unmount the file system because the file system is mounted in some namespace (or a bind mount) --- and then they file a bug report. If users are paying $$$ for a support contract with Red Hat or SuSE, then they can afford to have Level 1 support personnel to gently help them with PEBKAC problems. But if all of these bug reports show up in a web-based bug tracker which Debian Developers do you expect will handle them, precisely? And this is not a hypothetical scenario --- I've *seen* it, and I can't help all of those users; I don't just don't scale. (Which is why Red Hat, SuSE, IBM, etc., have L1, L2, and L3 support personnel; users don't get to talk to developers directly except in very rare cases, or unless they are paying $$$$$.) - Ted
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KYYmZ-bph0-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117708 |
On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 23:15:55 +0300, Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> wrote: >I've seen some of this same sentiment in discussions about >bugs.debian.org. People think that having a hard-to-use bug tracker >will keep the "noobs" away and maintain a higher quality of bug >reports and discussions among the people who do pass the bar of >figuring out how to use it. I think this is a very elitist attitude. The "hard to use" bugtracker is also easier to use for those people. I'd rather say that those people are lazy because they are not willing to ditch their ease of use to make things easier for others. I am one of those. That being said, I also detest web forums and still spend considerable time on Usenet. Because it's easier to use that any webforum. For me. I think I am as entitled to have a low barrier to use a medium as a newbie. >I just merged a first-time contributor MR in >https://salsa.debian.org/salsa-ci-team/pipeline/-/merge_requests/614, >and I think it was good quality. I don't think that people who use MRs >are noobs and their quality is in general bad, I don't think anybody ever said that. >and I don't think this >barrier of e-mail-only really helps drive up contribution quality. >When I compare my experiences of top-tier developers who I have seen >doing both e-mail reviews and in-browser reviews, in my experience >their in-browser reviews end up being much more productive and >scalable as they can have rich context information that is always >up-to-date, can track statuses and in general juggle many more reviews >in parallel. Also, if a bug goes into production, having the track >record properly in git and Forges really makes a difference. I think that tracking patches and tracking bugs have little in common. The BTS is a good medium for tracking bugs. MRs and the forge are a good tool for tracking patches. I am willing to move to MRs for tracking patches (I will break a lot of things there until I am productive with that workflow), but please let me keep the BTS for tracking bugs. Btw, I think that trivial one liner patches (such as the classing "allows one to" in man pages) are better filed as a bug. Just going through the fork, clone, commit, push, MR workflow takes as much time as opening ten issues like "your man page says 'allows to', please change that to the correct 'allows one to'". And after having said that I have not monitored the progress of the MR and the deletion of the forked repo. >But as said, I understand you have now your optimized workflow in >Mutt, and I am not asking you to change it. Many of the suggestions in such threads are like "let's replace the BTS with foo". Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re: New contributor experience) |
| Message-ID | <KYP0l-bj94-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117701 |
Le Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 07:59:42AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o a écrit : > > Can we say that the Debian package maintainers are reviewing their > pull requests at *least* as rigorously as kernel maintainers? We had > better hope so, because Debian package scripts get run as root By the way I wish there were as simple mechanisms to signal to all users (not just developers) whether a Debian package has maintainer scripts or not, and issuing a warning when the upgrade of a third-party package adds a new maintainer script. Maybe a different media type? File browser icon could be different, the output of `file` could tell it, and I am sure that even better solutions can be found. Have a nice day, Charles
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| From | Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTZjH-8c4J-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117587 |
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Am Mittwoch, dem 04.06.2025 um 17:10 +-0100 schrieb Ahmad Khalifa: +AD4 But something has to break the cycle. There is no daily standup or a +AD4 project manager to come in and ask for updates here :) This is actually an important point. The usually means that make a project socially work are not there. Not that we should have daily standups :-) Sincerely, Joachim -- Papier ist gebundenes CO2. Bitte drucken Sie diese EMail aus und archivieren Sie sie.
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KU1Yd-8dTO-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117591 |
On Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:22:59 +0200, Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> wrote: >Am Mittwoch, dem 04.06.2025 um 17:10 +0100 schrieb Ahmad Khalifa: >> But something has to break the cycle. There is no daily standup or a >> project manager to come in and ask for updates here :) > >This is actually an important point. The usually means that make a >project socially work are not there. > >Not that we should have daily standups :-) We could offer weekly video conferences. I might be willing to provide technical guidance during those. I would be an exceptionally bad host. Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUtH-88ry-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117551 |
Hi, Le 2025-06-04 12:39, Otto Kekäläinen a écrit : > the maintenance of this specific package (apache2) relies mostly on two > specific people and not just any Debian Developer in general. Also note that this package has an open RFH (Request For Help) [1], which means that its maintenance team is currently "understaffed". Cheers, [1]: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=910917 -- Julien Plissonneau Duquène
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUN3-88yD-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117556 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 01:22:07PM +0200, Julien Plissonneau Duquène wrote: >>the maintenance of this specific package (apache2) relies mostly on >>two specific people and not just any Debian Developer in general. > >Also note that this package has an open RFH (Request For Help) [1], That's what the original email was about. -- WBR, wRAR
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