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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #117485 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200 |
| Last post | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 148 — 37 participants |
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New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re: New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
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| From | Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KT8yJ-7r7k-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117485 |
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On Fri, 2025-05-30 at 10:21 +0200, Joachim Zobel wrote: > Hi. > > Since I am relatively new contributing to Debian (while doing software > development for 3 decades). I thought it might be useful to share a bit > of the experience. > > One fundamental thing is that you may not be welcomed simply because > there is nobody there welcoming you. Adding a merge request for a fix > may be pointless, because nobody will merge it. Reviewing is a certain > effort and nobody has time for that. > > This is what I learned when trying to contribute to apache. I had read > they might need help and found out there is no way I can help them. > Note that I am not complaining, this is just the way it is. > > It seems you really need to insist a bit if you want to help. I did > this with mosquitto and it worked. > > My experience does however also include other things that worked. I did > a successful package salvation for libsml and I did a successful RFS > for vzlogger. > > Sincerely, > Joachim > Hi Joachim, As other have suggested, I personally would open a bug report and link to any Merge Request (MR). If this has no joy for a time then follow the Intent To Salvage (ITS) process. I hope your success with the RFS was going through Debian Mentors. If anyone gets stuck with contribution, I would encourage people to email the Debian Mentors mailing list and we can see if we can assist. Oh, there is a new upstream version of vzlogger - hint - hint. ;-) -- Regards Phil Donate: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg -- "I play the game for the game’s own sake" Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans -- Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas Website: https://kathenas.org Instagram: https://instagram.com/kathenasorg Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kathenasorg --
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTaKd-7smi-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117531 |
On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 09:04:15 +0100, Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> wrote: >As other have suggested, I personally would open a bug report and link to any >Merge Request (MR). Yes! It gives the maintainer the chance to write the joyful "Closes: #nnnn" into the changelog and to feel joy receiving the messages after upload. (not joking). >Oh, there is a new upstream version of vzlogger - hint - hint. ;-) I am also happy to see vzlogger in Debian. I gave that packaging a try about a decade ago and pulled back from that idea after having bad experience with vzlogger's upstream. If I remember correctly there didn't understand some of the needs a distribution has, for example a working build system and a release concept. Once I have gotten my Raspis to work¹ and I am finally alble to retire the Banana Pi, I plan to migrate to Joachim's package and am happy that somebody else is doing this particular work ;-) Greetings Marc ¹ I want u-boot! -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTTR0-87Wk-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117485 |
Hi! ... > One fundamental thing is that you may not be welcomed simply because > there is nobody there welcoming you. Adding a merge request for a fix > may be pointless, because nobody will merge it. Reviewing is a certain > effort and nobody has time for that. .. > My experience does however also include other things that worked. I did > a successful package salvation for libsml and I did a successful RFS > for vzlogger. Thanks for contributing to Debian! When contributing to Debian packages it is important to grasp that each package is kind of a mini-project by itself, and how new contributors are welcomed, or how active the package maintenance is in general, fully depends on who is the individual maintainer or maintainer team. As you can see, over 20 people responded to your email here in an encouraging tone but none of those who responded so far actually helped review or merge your submission, as the maintenance of this specific package (apache2) relies mostly on two specific people and not just any Debian Developer in general. I suggest you continue to contribute to Debian packages (as you already have) and focus your efforts on the packages where your submissions are reviewed and contributions get better treatment. Personally I often start contributing to a Debian package (or any open source project in general) by submitting a typofix or something small just so see if the project is receptive to contributions, and invest time in more extensive contributions only if the initial contribution experience was good. In some rare cases the package maintainers express elitistic behaviour and dismiss contributions as "a nuisance". If you run into this, then just stop contributing. Most of the time however the contribution simply gets ignored because the maintainer is busy. Many maintainers in Debian are responsible for tens of packages and easily overcommit. Lack of maintainer time is likely the reason why your https://salsa.debian.org/apache-team/apache2/-/merge_requests/43 went 8 months without a response. Some people in this thread suggested contacting the maintainer via bug report email, but I don't think you did anything wrong. If the maintainer does not have time to look at open MRs in 8 months, the fundamental challenge is likely a social or economical issue of not having time to maintain the package properly along with all it entails. To get this specific MR going, added my review as a comment and pinged the maintainer, who merged it. The person who originally filed the issue https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=972695 didn't add any review to your MR, but you should note that he did see it and added a comment to the bug report. Hopefully you can follow up with the logrotate snippet. Feel free to request a review from me if the maintainer is too busy to review your next MR. - Otto
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| From | Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUal-88kU-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117551 |
Am Mittwoch, dem 04.06.2025 um 13:39 +0300 schrieb Otto Kekäläinen: > as the > maintenance of this specific package (apache2) relies mostly on two > specific people and not just any Debian Developer in general. My guess was that the apache2 package is beyond receiving help. The people maintaining it are able to react to urgent tasks (e.g. CVEs) and to move to new upstream releases and that is all they have time for. This is a bad state (that quite some open source projects have reached). We should have a word for that, may be uncontributable does fit. Sincerely, Joachim
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| From | Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUtH-88ry-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117552 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 01:06:15PM +0200, Joachim Zobel wrote: > We should have a word for that, may be uncontributable does > fit. if you want to add insult to injury, yes, then it's a perfect fit. else I would suggest to find another word... -- cheers, Holger ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C ⠈⠳⣄ This code is for you and me. (Dave Täht)
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| From | Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUWK-88CK-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117554 |
Am Mittwoch, dem 04.06.2025 um 11:21 +0000 schrieb Holger Levsen: > if you want to add insult to injury, yes, then it's a perfect fit. > else I would suggest to find another word... Sorry for that, I am not a native english speaker and may have missed parts of the meaning. Neither insult nor injry were intended. Joachim -- Papier ist gebundenes CO2. Bitte drucken Sie diese EMail aus und archivieren Sie sie.
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| From | Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUN3-88yD-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117552 |
Le 2025-06-04 13:06, Joachim Zobel a écrit : > > My guess was that the apache2 package is beyond receiving help. This is right in a way. As there are not enough active maintainers and they are busy with many other things, dealing with one-off, non-urgent contributions is not something they are often able to do (or the notifications were drowned in a sea of other things to do). But on the other hand the maintenance team would welcome new skilled maintainers that can dedicate some time to this package over an extended period. > This is a bad state (that quite some open source projects have > reached). We should have a word for that, may be uncontributable does > fit. Maybe "distressed"? It's not that contributions are not welcome, but that the current maintainers are not able to review and merge them within a "reasonable" (from the point of view of the contributor) time frame. Cheers, -- Julien Plissonneau Duquène
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUtH-88ry-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117551 |
On 04/06/2025 11:39, Otto Kekäläinen wrote: > Lack of maintainer time is likely the reason why your > https://salsa.debian.org/apache-team/apache2/-/merge_requests/43 went > 8 months without a response. Some people in this thread suggested ... Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs? (oldest is about to turn 20 yo) They are one of the first things people would look at and seeing stale bugs abandoned is like having a welcome mat that says "no one is home". I too went to the RFH list first thing. PS, similarly with RFP/ITP? (oldest RFP is about to turn 24!) -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUDn-88uX-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117555 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: >Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs? >(oldest is about to turn 20 yo) Why? If the team no longer wants help, they should just close it. If the package was orphaned since then, ideally it should be closed, sure. >PS, similarly with RFP/ITP? (oldest RFP is about to turn 24!) We should just abolish and forbid RFPs, but in the current state having old open RFPs works as designed IMO, saying that someone at some time in the past wanted this software packaged for some reason. For ITPs, we should indeed close ones that didn't have activity for some specific period of time, or turn them into RFPs, and that's already implemented in the bartm's scripts, though I'm not sure if it's currently enabled or not. -- WBR, wRAR
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUN3-88yD-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117557 |
On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 04:39:30PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: >We should just abolish and forbid RFPs, but in the current state >having old open RFPs works as designed IMO, saying that someone at >some time in the past wanted this software packaged for some reason. I dislike that. An open RFP contains information: Somebody has looked at an upstream package, thought it would make sense to have in Debian, but decided that they dont have the resources or motivation to do the work themselves for some reason. We should not throw away that information consciously. >For ITPs, we should indeed close ones that didn't have activity for >some specific period of time, or turn them into RFPs, and that's >already implemented in the bartm's scripts, though I'm not sure if >it's currently enabled or not. Please demote stale ITPs to RFPs, but don't throw them away. Reasons: See above. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTUWJ-88CK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117557 |
On 04/06/2025 12:39, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: >> Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs? >> (oldest is about to turn 20 yo) > > Why? > If the team no longer wants help, they should just close it. > If the package was orphaned since then, ideally it should be closed, sure. Because they're misleading and waste contributor time. Have you spent time going through a lot of the 50 RFH bugs? They're full of spam and people being ignored. If the maintainer truly still needs help, they can raise another bug, it's super easy by email :) >> PS, similarly with RFP/ITP? (oldest RFP is about to turn 24!) > > We should just abolish and forbid RFPs, but in the current state having > old open RFPs works as designed IMO, saying that someone at some time in > the past wanted this software packaged for some reason. > For ITPs, we should indeed close ones that didn't have activity for some > specific period of time, or turn them into RFPs, and that's already > implemented in the bartm's scripts, though I'm not sure if it's > currently enabled or not. They're both useful within a "recent" time span (say 6m or 1y). After that, why keep it and have a long wnpp page that's not useful? Debbugs will have a record of archived ones for future historians. -- Regards, Ahmad
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| From | Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTVpL-8950-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117562 |
Quoting Ahmad Khalifa (2025-06-04 13:56:49) > On 04/06/2025 12:39, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: > >> Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs? > >> (oldest is about to turn 20 yo) > > > > Why? > > If the team no longer wants help, they should just close it. > > If the package was orphaned since then, ideally it should be closed, sure. > > Because they're misleading and waste contributor time. > > Have you spent time going through a lot of the 50 RFH bugs? > They're full of spam and people being ignored. I do, occationally, look through WNPP bugreports. If you consider 1 hour old bugreports stale, then you are free to ignore older ones - noone told you to "waste" time on them. Please, when talking in absolutes (like they're misleading") then please provide some more information on how you come to that conclusive judgement on behalf of all thousands of Debian contributors. Alternatively (because that might indeed be a waste of time), please consider framing personal opinions as such, not as absolutes. Reason I encourage you to do that is that I want to discuss with you, and I find it easier to discuss when the conversation is easy to separate opinion from fact. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
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| From | Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTVSN-89jo-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117567 |
On 04/06/2025 13:28, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Ahmad Khalifa (2025-06-04 13:56:49)
>> On 04/06/2025 12:39, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
>>>> Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs?
>>>> (oldest is about to turn 20 yo)
>>>
>>> Why?
>>> If the team no longer wants help, they should just close it.
>>> If the package was orphaned since then, ideally it should be closed, sure.
>>
>> Because they're misleading and waste contributor time.
>>
>> Have you spent time going through a lot of the 50 RFH bugs?
>> They're full of spam and people being ignored.
>
> I do, occationally, look through WNPP bugreports.
>
> If you consider 1 hour old bugreports stale, then you are free to ignore
> older ones - noone told you to "waste" time on them.
>
> Please, when talking in absolutes (like they're misleading") then please
> provide some more information on how you come to that conclusive
> judgement on behalf of all thousands of Debian contributors.
>
> Alternatively (because that might indeed be a waste of time), please
> consider framing personal opinions as such, not as absolutes. Reason
> I encourage you to do that is that I want to discuss with you, and I
> find it easier to discuss when the conversation is easy to separate
> opinion from fact.
Everything I say is my opinion. I have no formal role here.
The top message is only a polite suggestion.
Consider this random new contributor's experience:
1. Go to https://www.debian.org/, click on "Get Involved, Contribute"
2. Read https://www.debian.org/devel/join/, points you to "WNPP"
3. Go to https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/, browse the page
- At that point, you might not know what is adoption and orphans.
- Easiest thing to dip your toes in: "packages in need of help".
4. Go to the RFH page, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/help_requested
5. Browse interesting bugs:
- Read the spam messages, maybe click on "this bug has spam"
(which I feel is a placebo)
- Look at other comments and interactions, no closed loop, no
conclusions
- Realize the bug is several years old
- Decide that it's beyond a newcomer's ability and move on
Of course, this is my opinion, but it's debian's primary journey from
the homepage.
--
Regards,
Ahmad
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| From | Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTXrz-8aqG-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117570 |
On 04/06/25 6:27 pm, Ahmad Khalifa wrote: > On 04/06/2025 13:28, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> Alternatively (because that might indeed be a waste of time), please >> consider framing personal opinions as such, not as absolutes. Reason >> I encourage you to do that is that I want to discuss with you, and I >> find it easier to discuss when the conversation is easy to separate >> opinion from fact. > > Everything I say is my opinion. I have no formal role here. > The top message is only a polite suggestion. > > Consider this random new contributor's experience: > > 1. Go to https://www.debian.org/, click on "Get Involved, Contribute" > 2. Read https://www.debian.org/devel/join/, points you to "WNPP" > 3. Go to https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/, browse the page > - At that point, you might not know what is adoption and orphans. > - Easiest thing to dip your toes in: "packages in need of help". > 4. Go to the RFH page, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/help_requested > 5. Browse interesting bugs: > - Read the spam messages, maybe click on "this bug has spam" > (which I feel is a placebo) > - Look at other comments and interactions, no closed loop, no > conclusions > - Realize the bug is several years old > - Decide that it's beyond a newcomer's ability and move on > > Of course, this is my opinion, but it's debian's primary journey from > the homepage. As unfortunate as it may sound, some of this is actually true. The worse part is if the newcomers want to chat, the official media in Debian for that is IRC, which is hard to use and setup a bouncer and so on. I don't argue against making our tooling better. _However_ that being said, there are alternate pathways too -- it is IMHO not as bad as you frame it. 1. Let's say a contributor has interest in Scientific packages in Debian. 2. They web search "Debian scientific packages" 3. The search engine gives them https://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience and https://science-team.pages.debian.net/policy/#idm36 along with the mailing lists to join 4. They seek help on the list for their issues and start contributing. 5. Let's say the team they choose is not very active - they go ahead a look for another team or other packages of their interest. Contributing to a free software project such as Debian often times needs a bit of patience. People do have changing interests and move across different areas if they are more inclined. To reach over until RFH as per the 4th point in _your_ mail, it takes a few minutes. And probably as few more to reach to the state that you describe in your 5th point. Things take time, and I believe a few minutes is really short time to give up. You can try contributing to any other large project like Debian. You will see plenty of issues being stalled, or being hard to solve and so on. This is not something that's totally unique to the debian project.
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTY4h-8b0z-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117575 |
On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 07:42:18PM +0530, Nilesh Patra wrote: >As unfortunate as it may sound, some of this is actually true. The worse part is >if the newcomers want to chat, the official media in Debian for that is IRC, which >is hard to use and setup a bouncer and so on. I don't argue against making our tooling >better. Do you seriously think that people who can't be bothered with finding an IRC Client, pointing it to a server and joining a channel can be bothered with Debian's other peculiariaties? Will we have to change our packaging to writing just one file as other distributions do? Greetings Marc > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTYdX-8b6G-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117577 |
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On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 05:09:45PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: >>As unfortunate as it may sound, some of this is actually true. The worse part is >>if the newcomers want to chat, the official media in Debian for that is IRC, which >>is hard to use and setup a bouncer and so on. I don't argue against making our tooling >>better. > >Do you seriously think that people who can't be bothered with finding >an IRC Client, pointing it to a server and joining a channel can be >bothered with Debian's other peculiariaties? For every peculiarity there is someone who considers it a benefit to the project. > Will we have to change our packaging to writing just one file as other > distributions do? That would be nice and the work is already ongoing. -- WBR, wRAR
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTYxj-8bjN-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117578 |
On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 08:24:45PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote: >That would be nice and the work is already ongoing. Well, let's switch over to RPM then. Greetings Marc, leaving this thread for today for mental health, making a mental note to have at least one meal with wRAR in Brest, hoping that the online interaction will be less annoying when I know the person beind those messages -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTYnD-8bcS-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117577 |
> >As unfortunate as it may sound, some of this is actually true. The worse part is > >if the newcomers want to chat, the official media in Debian for that is IRC, which > >is hard to use and setup a bouncer and so on. I don't argue against making our tooling > >better. > > Do you seriously think that people who can't be bothered with finding an > IRC Client, pointing it to a server and joining a channel can be > bothered with Debian's other peculiariaties? Will we have to change our > packaging to writing just one file as other distributions do? I agree with Marc. I would also add that it is not just new contributors who avoid IRC, also many existing DDs have stopped using IRC and moved to Matrix as it offers a richer user experience, or some have even stopped using chat altogether as discussions in Salsa issues are more efficient for single-threaded tasks, and they are archived and searchable.
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| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTYnD-8bcS-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117577 |
Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> writes: > Do you seriously think that people who can't be bothered with finding an > IRC Client, pointing it to a server and joining a channel can be > bothered with Debian's other peculiariaties? Yes? I refuse to use IRC because I find it annoying, and yet I seem to put up with all of the rest of our peculiarities. :) -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <KTYxj-8bjN-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #117581 |
On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 08:32:49AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> writes: >> Do you seriously think that people who can't be bothered with finding an >> IRC Client, pointing it to a server and joining a channel can be >> bothered with Debian's other peculiariaties? > >Yes? I refuse to use IRC because I find it annoying, and yet I seem to put >up with all of the rest of our peculiarities. :) Would you use Matrix, XMPP or some of those modern chat systems? Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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