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Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list

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  Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Dan Jacobson <jidanni@jidanni.org> - 2023-02-01 01:40 +0100
    Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2023-02-01 20:20 +0100
      Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2023-02-01 21:00 +0100
        Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU)  <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2023-02-01 21:50 +0100
    Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2023-02-01 21:40 +0100
      Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Jérémy Lal <kapouer@melix.org> - 2023-02-01 22:20 +0100
        Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> - 2023-02-05 04:10 +0100
      Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2023-02-01 23:40 +0100
      Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2023-02-02 06:30 +0100
      Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Eric Cooper <ecc@cmu.edu> - 2023-02-02 17:00 +0100
    Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list Dan Jacobson <jidanni@jidanni.org> - 2023-02-03 04:40 +0100

#1135763 — Bug#1030189: Let regular users know need to put non-free-firmware in sources.list

Package: general

The average user will not notice his firmware is not updating any more.

Some users, if they do
$ apt-show-versions |grep 'No available version in archive'
will see
firmware-amd-graphics:all 20221214-3 installed: No available version in archive
firmware-brcm80211:all 20221214-3 installed: No available version in archive...

And if they check
/var/lib/apt/lists/*_debian_dists_unstable_non-free_i18n_Translation-en.diff_Index
will notice something funny happened...
 137480 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-14-1406.12
 137194 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-14-2004.08
 137161 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-16-0203.33
 137036 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-16-2003.44
  73251 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-18-2013.57
  73217 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-19-2008.34
  72676 T-2023-01-30-2019.16-F-2023-01-20-2016.02

So he must do Google Search.
https://www.google.com/search?q=debian+firmware+non-free
which leads to
https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
which says
...a new repository component non-free-firmware...

So that means he needs to add it to /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
Ah ha!

Yes, he should be regularly subscribed to debian-user, but that's too
much.
Or https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/, but that's too many boring
messages too.

Yes, he uses apt-listchanges, but that won't tell him this.

So I'm saying that Debian needs a mechanism to have his computer tell
him to do this.

Maybe the next time he uses apt*, somehow the system should tell him...

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#1135883

Am 1. Februar 2023 01:30:10 MEZ schrieb Dan Jacobson <jidanni@jidanni.org>:
>So he must do Google Search.

Do you think this problem only affects make users?


mfh.her.fsr
IOhannes

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#1135888

On Wed, 2023-02-01 at 20:13 +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> Am 1. Februar 2023 01:30:10 MEZ schrieb Dan Jacobson
> <jidanni@jidanni.org>:
> > So he must do Google Search.
> 
> Do you think this problem only affects make users?

I would expect at least ninja-build users to be affected as well unless
they use a VM.

Ansgar

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#1135903

On 2/1/23 20:53, Ansgar wrote:
>>> So he must do Google Search.
>>
>> Do you think this problem only affects make users?

jeez... my remark was meant to spell:
 > Do you think this problem only affects *male* users?

but autocompletion kicked in.


> 
> I would expect at least ninja-build users to be affected as well unless
> they use a VM.


so i'm rephrasing this (with tongue-in-cheek) as:
 > Do you think this problem only affects kunoichi-build users?

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#1135896

Control: reassign -1 release-notes

On 2023-02-01 08:30 +0800, Dan Jacobson wrote:

> Package: general
>
> The average user will not notice his firmware is not updating any more.

Unless they pay close attention to apt(itude)'s messages, that is
probably true.

> So he must do Google Search.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=debian+firmware+non-free
> which leads to
> https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
> which says
> ...a new repository component non-free-firmware...
>
> So that means he needs to add it to /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
> Ah ha!

The release notes for Bookworm should and will certainly mention that.
I think this is where this bug is actually actionable, so I am
reassigning it there.

> Yes, he should be regularly subscribed to debian-user, but that's too
> much.

I have sent a heads-up message[1] there a few days ago, but as you said it
got lost in all the other topics discussed there.

> Or https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/, but that's too many boring
> messages too.

There was not even a prominent notice there, at least not in the past
few weeks.

> Yes, he uses apt-listchanges, but that won't tell him this.
>
> So I'm saying that Debian needs a mechanism to have his computer tell
> him to do this.
>
> Maybe the next time he uses apt*, somehow the system should tell him...

Somehow, but how exactly?  Good question that was brought up on
debian-devel[2], alas without replies yet.

Cheers,
       Sven


1. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00706.html
2. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2023/01/msg00312.html

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#1135909

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

A placeholder package in main could prompt users to enable needed
source component ?

Le mer. 1 févr. 2023 à 21:36, Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> a écrit :

> Control: reassign -1 release-notes
>
> On 2023-02-01 08:30 +0800, Dan Jacobson wrote:
>
> > Package: general
> >
> > The average user will not notice his firmware is not updating any more.
>
> Unless they pay close attention to apt(itude)'s messages, that is
> probably true.
>
> > So he must do Google Search.
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=debian+firmware+non-free
> > which leads to
> > https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
> > which says
> > ...a new repository component non-free-firmware...
> >
> > So that means he needs to add it to /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
> > Ah ha!
>
> The release notes for Bookworm should and will certainly mention that.
> I think this is where this bug is actually actionable, so I am
> reassigning it there.
>
> > Yes, he should be regularly subscribed to debian-user, but that's too
> > much.
>
> I have sent a heads-up message[1] there a few days ago, but as you said it
> got lost in all the other topics discussed there.
>
> > Or https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/, but that's too many boring
> > messages too.
>
> There was not even a prominent notice there, at least not in the past
> few weeks.
>
> > Yes, he uses apt-listchanges, but that won't tell him this.
> >
> > So I'm saying that Debian needs a mechanism to have his computer tell
> > him to do this.
> >
> > Maybe the next time he uses apt*, somehow the system should tell him...
>
> Somehow, but how exactly?  Good question that was brought up on
> debian-devel[2], alas without replies yet.
>
> Cheers,
>        Sven
>
>
> 1. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00706.html
> 2. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2023/01/msg00312.html
>
>

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#1136383

Control: clone 1030189 -1
Control: reassign -1 debian-faq

Thanks Sven,

How about Debian FAQ?  Shouldn't it mention non-free-firmware

 * debian-faq package
 * https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ftparchives.en.html

FYI: I already updated debian-reference

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_debian_archive_basics

(minimal changes to avoid translation breakages)


> Le mer. 1 févr. 2023 à 21:36, Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> a écrit :
> 
> > Control: reassign -1 release-notes
> >
...
> > Somehow, but how exactly?  Good question that was brought up on
> > debian-devel[2], alas without replies yet.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >        Sven
> >
> >
> > 1. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/01/msg00706.html
> > 2. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2023/01/msg00312.html

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#1135919

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Feb 01, 2023 at 09:32:47PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
> > Maybe the next time he uses apt*, somehow the system should tell him...
> 
> Somehow, but how exactly?

fwiw I intend to have apt print a notice at the end of each
'apt(-get) update' call if certain conditions are met in bookworm.

My branch with details can be found here:
https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/-/merge_requests/282

It is marked Draft as I mainly need to a) figure out which firmware
packages from bullseye (will have been) moved in bookworm to
non-free-firmware for one of my targeted scenarios and b) have a
reasonably detailed entry in the release notes to link to explaining
what to actually do as I really don't want to get into details in
a one-line message… will be hard enough to cover all bases in a few
paragraphs after all.


A stub for the release-notes can be found in
https://salsa.debian.org/ddp-team/release-notes/-/merge_requests/138
although as I noted in a comment there I would prefer a more
detailed §5 entry rather than linking to a rather short §4.


The code isn't exactly rocket-science (although a bit lengthy) & as I
am reusing already existing messages it could theoretically be
backported to bullseye and pushed in a stable update so that users
would see it while upgrading instead of on some run after the upgrade,
but for the moment I am not planing to push for that. I might have if
someone had shown any interest in the idea months ago[0].


The message is rather cryptic, but its intent is to catch unaware
sid/testing users and those stable users who don't read release notes,
so that is borderline okay. If the goalpost is instead moved to every
user of Debian the messages should really not be that cryptic, but that
would mean more work & more diff (not just by me, but e.g. translators).
At this point in time it seems better to focus this energy on the
release notes. Or, on discussing if gmake users are affected, too, …


Best regards

David Kalnischkies

[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2022/10/msg00217.html

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#1135953

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, 2023-02-01 at 21:32 +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:

> Somehow, but how exactly?  Good question that was brought up on
> debian-devel[2], alas without replies yet.

The apt developers have come up with something for this:

https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/-/merge_requests/282

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#1136007

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 3:36 PM Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> wrote:
> The release notes for Bookworm should and will certainly mention that.
> I think this is where this bug is actually actionable, so I am
> reassigning it there.
>
> > Yes, he should be regularly subscribed to debian-user, but that's too
> > much.
>
> I have sent a heads-up message[1] there a few days ago, but as you said it
> got lost in all the other topics discussed there.
>
> > Or https://lists.debian.org/debian-announce/, but that's too many boring
> > messages too.
>
> There was not even a prominent notice there, at least not in the past
> few weeks.
>
> > Yes, he uses apt-listchanges, but that won't tell him this.
> >
> > So I'm saying that Debian needs a mechanism to have his computer tell
> > him to do this.
> >
> > Maybe the next time he uses apt*, somehow the system should tell him...
>
> Somehow, but how exactly?  Good question that was brought up on
> debian-devel[2], alas without replies yet.

I got bitten by this, and only noticed it when my system's firmware
packages showed up in the output of "apt list ~g".
I'm sure I'm missing something, but why weren't transitional packages left
in non-free that depend on the new versions in non-free-firmware? Perhaps
they could also depend on a source-list-modifying package so the next
upgrade doesn't break.

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#1136065

>>>>> "DK" == David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> writes:

DK> The message is rather cryptic, but its intent is to catch unaware
DK> sid/testing users and those stable users who don't read release notes,

I am the perfect user to test it on.

I am the one who just has used sid for the last 20 years and all I do is
aptiude update; aptiude full-upgrade
not even using any GUI, curses, etc.

Anyway all those cool names "bookworm" or whatever, no, not even "in one
ear and out the other"... they never even get to one ear.

I'm like grandma who never watches the news. Wouldn't know if they
changed the flag until one day I looked on top of the post office.

Anyway to test it on me, "you'll need to give me a special cellphone
(.deb) that beeps when there is a (test) national alert", so as not to
bother other users.

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