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Groups > comp.theory > #106146
| From | Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- |
| Date | 2024-06-03 17:56 +0300 |
| Organization | - |
| Message-ID | <v3klje$3ugm5$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <v3fc52$2qsgd$2@dont-email.me> <v3h8iq$3938f$1@dont-email.me> <v3ht3m$3bkv5$5@dont-email.me> <v3jv8s$3qp52$1@dont-email.me> <v3kea7$3t5s5$2@dont-email.me> |
On 2024-06-03 12:52:22 +0000, olcott said:
> On 6/3/2024 3:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-06-02 13:46:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 6/2/2024 2:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-06-01 14:44:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/1/2024 2:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-31 14:25:40 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/31/2024 2:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 31.mei.2024 om 00:01 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/30/2024 4:54 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 30 May 2024 09:55:24 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)(); // ptr is pointer to int function in C
>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr p, ptr i);
>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr p)
>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(p, p);
>>>>>>>>>>> 04 if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>> 05 HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 11 H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>> 12 return 0;
>>>>>>>>>>> 13 }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The left hand-side are line numbers of correct C code.
>>>>>>>>>>> This code does compile and does conform to c17.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone with sufficient knowledge of C can easily determine that D
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly emulated by any *pure function* H (using an x86 emulator)
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its own simulated final state at line 06 and halt.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, of course not, if H doesn’t halt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To actually understand my words (as in an actual honest dialogue)
>>>>>>>>> you must pay careful attention to every single word. Maybe you
>>>>>>>>> had no idea that *pure functions* must always halt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or maybe you did not know that every computation that never reaches
>>>>>>>>> its own final state *DOES NOT HALT* even if it stops running because
>>>>>>>>> it is no longer simulated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since the claim is that H is also a computation, it holds for H, as
>>>>>>>> well. That means that H *DOES NOT HALT* even if it stops running
>>>>>>>> because it is no longer simulated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *pure function H definitely halts you are confused*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A pure function does not halt (in C that means that a pure function
>>>>>> does not call exit). A pure function returns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When a pure function returns this is the equivalent of the theory
>>>>> of computation halting.
>>>>
>>>> In ceratin sense, yes. But the term "pure function" is mainly used
>>>> in a different context where the word "halting" has a more specific
>>>> meaning.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I need to maintain a constant mapping between theory of computation
>>> terminology and software engineering terminology.
>>
>> You need to keep your own terminology consistent and well defined.
>> If possible try to avoid terms that have different meanings in
>> the two areas.
>>
>>> Computable Function(comp sci) <is equivalent to> Pure function(SE)
>>> I want it to be easy for software engineers to understand my proof.
>>
>> If you want to write to software engineers you need to define all
>> terms that are not software engneers terms or do not mean what
>> they mean in oftware engineering or do not have the same meaning
>> to all software engineers. Software engineers borrow terms from
>> their application areas and tool providers which result term
>> conflicts as application areas and tool providers are not the same
>> for all software engineers.
>>
>>> Only software engineers will understand that DD correctly simulated
>>> by HH had different behavior than DD(DD). Comp Sci people allow Comp Sci
>>> dogma to overrule verified facts.
>>
>> A relevant dogma always overrides an irrelevant fact.
>>
>
> Nothing can override any fact without lying.
There is no need to lie about an irrelevant fact, or to protest if
someone lies anyway.
--
Mikko
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Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-05-30 21:54 +0000
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-30 17:01 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-30 21:37 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 09:50 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 09:25 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 17:37 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 10:54 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 18:18 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 12:01 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-31 19:53 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 20:15 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 13:22 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 20:55 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 14:07 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-31 21:35 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-31 14:54 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-01 10:49 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 10:15 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-01 11:23 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-02 10:49 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-02 08:33 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-02 13:23 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 11:09 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 08:07 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 20:15 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt --- Mike Terry olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 14:28 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-06-01 14:43 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-06-01 14:42 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-01 08:57 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-06-01 14:41 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-31 19:52 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-01 18:33 +0000
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 13:37 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-01 14:44 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-02 09:51 +0000
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-31 19:48 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-01 10:56 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 09:44 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-02 10:56 +0300
Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-02 08:46 -0500
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-02 13:23 -0400
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 11:47 +0300
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 08:09 -0500
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-03 20:56 -0400
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 11:35 +0300
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 07:52 -0500
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 17:56 +0300
Re: Deciders are ONLY accountable for their actual inputs --- "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-03 22:15 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-01 18:28 +0000
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 13:34 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-01 14:47 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-02 11:00 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-02 08:51 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-02 13:23 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-06-02 21:02 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 12:11 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 08:12 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-03 17:58 +0300
DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 13:25 -0500
Re: DD correctly simulated by HH cannot possibly reach past its own line 03 and halt Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-04 11:54 +0300
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-03 22:18 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 16:18 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-03 20:56 -0400
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-31 10:39 +0200
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-01 18:13 +0000
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 13:23 -0500
Re: D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and halt Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-01 16:29 -0400
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