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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: Halting Problem Solved |
| Date | 2021-07-23 22:13 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87bl6shgy2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <1IednbDdRdvEemT9nZ2dnUU7-QPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <871r7qhrx6.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RoidndoP7P4tYGT9nZ2dnUU7-QfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87mtqdhpms.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <4sGdnQYuWtPsUWf9nZ2dnUU7-bHNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/22/2021 6:53 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/22/2021 6:04 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/22/2021 3:53 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/21/2021 8:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I did not even glance at any of the words
>>>>>>>> It's simple. I asked which of these three facts you reject:
>>>>>>>> (a) P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>> (b) H(P, P) == 0.
>>>>>>>> (c) H(P, I) == 0 is only correct if P(I) does not halt.
>>>>>>>> and it seems the answer is (c). This despite your disingenuous
>>>>>>>> (i.e. dishonest) refusal to make your rejection of what halt decider is
>>>>>>>> clear. (Details in the parent article for those who do read.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The P of int main() { P(P); } halts
>>>>>> Yes, you've confirmed (a) many times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and H(P,P)==0
>>>>>> Yes, (b) is also not in dispute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is the correct halts status.
>>>>>>> It is not a contradiction it is a paradox.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's neither. It's just that H is not a halt decider. The fact you
>>>>>> reject is (c) -- the definition of a halt decider.
>>>>>> We've known that for ages. The only issue has been your reluctance to
>>>>>> admit it. You know the game is up unless you can pretend to be still
>>>>>> talking about the halting problem as defined in Linz, Sipser, Davis,
>>>>>> Kleene and everyone else except you.
>>>>>> Although, as I've pointed out many times, the game need not be up. Your
>>>>>> stated specification for the POOH problem is also undecidable. We could
>>>>>> argue about that for the next 17 years instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact that int main(){ P(P); } only halts because the input to
>>>>> H(P,P) aborts the simulation of its input has been mutually agreed
>>>>> that H did decide its input correctly.
>>>> Every computation that halts, for whatever reason, is a halting
>>>> computation.
>>>
>>> Ah but now with André's suggestion of using the proper definition of
>>> halting:
>>>
>>> Halting computation: is any computation that eventually reaches its
>>> own final state.
>>>
>>> We can know that the input to H(P,P) never halts.
>> Are you changing your mind about one of the three key facts?
>
> The key fact that André changed my mind on is that int main(){ P(P); }
> halts.
You have never disputed the fact that P(P) halts. I see no change of
mind. If you ever did disagree with (a) you should have said so many,
many posts ago.
> Prior to this I thought that it was reasonably possible to
> construe it as not halting even though it stops running.
You have never disagreed with the fact that P(P) halts.
> By referring to the key element of the conventional definition of
> halting André puts things in much sharper focus.
But you've never disagreed with the fact the P(P) halts.
>> Do you still agree that P(P) halts?
>> Do you still agree that H(P,P) == 0?
>> Do you still reject that for H to be a halt decider H(P,I) == 0 only
>> when P(I) does not halt?
>
> P[0] halts when H[0](P[1],P[1]) is correctly decided as never halting.
> Once we make the references totally specific it is no longer even
> paradoxical.
I'll note that you did not answer my question. Unless you've changed
your mind about (c), and now accept that it's a fact, H is not a alt
decider so you get to say what the right answer is. H(P,P) can be 47.6
if you so choose.
>> A clear answer would be appreciated.
... but was not expected.
--
Ben.
Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 19:00 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 19:28 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 19:31 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:24 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 19:46 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:56 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 20:56 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 15:00 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 22:42 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 22:24 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 17:32 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 22:54 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 23:15 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 09:10 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 09:37 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-17 17:24 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 12:06 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 02:45 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-18 12:26 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 09:41 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 01:36 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 17:11 +0000
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory)[ Strachey P ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 07:40 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-17 16:47 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-17 16:37 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [ Flibble is correct ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:40 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [ Flibble is correct ] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-18 11:43 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-18 12:13 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-18 15:15 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-18 07:42 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-18 17:02 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-18 10:12 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-18 13:22 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 12:30 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Pathological self-reference error (Olcott 2004) ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 08:41 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-18 19:55 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-18 21:00 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-18 14:22 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-18 20:08 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-19 02:06 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 21:09 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 11:24 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 03:43 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 13:53 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 14:02 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 06:30 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 10:22 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-19 09:11 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 01:13 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 11:34 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-19 02:24 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-19 13:06 +0200
Re: Halting Problem Solved Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 04:52 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 08:14 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 08:43 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 21:12 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 09:16 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 21:25 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 00:38 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 09:43 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [ Flibble is correct ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 09:48 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Newberry <newberryxy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 13:30 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 16:16 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 17:21 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 16:37 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 18:37 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 18:02 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 23:32 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-21 08:17 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 09:24 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Newberry <newberryxy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 23:26 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 21:57 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 22:06 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:10 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 22:22 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:30 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 13:31 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 21:46 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:07 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 23:59 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:35 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 03:32 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 09:55 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 01:35 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 09:22 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 08:40 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 10:18 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 09:29 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 09:45 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 10:33 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-21 01:28 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 09:48 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 09:41 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-22 01:12 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 20:27 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 18:37 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 20:49 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 19:01 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-22 02:49 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 20:57 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 19:19 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 20:57 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 22:25 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 21:50 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 23:40 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 22:26 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 00:55 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 08:04 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 08:23 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved (title is a misnomer) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 09:52 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (title is a misnomer) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 10:24 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 10:22 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-22 21:53 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 16:47 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 14:54 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:04 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 18:22 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:53 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 09:04 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 09:41 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 22:13 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 16:54 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 15:19 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 04:02 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 18:05 -0600
Re: Halting Problem Solved olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 08:36 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 08:51 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] [ H(P,P)==0 is correct ] "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-21 21:04 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved [ Ben admits that he lied ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 21:17 -0700
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 23:59 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [Ben is a liar ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:38 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [Ben is a liar ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 03:12 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [Ben is a liar ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 10:02 -0500
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) [Ben is a liar ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 01:36 +0100
Re: Halting Problem Solved (Black Box Decider Theory) Charlie-Boo <shymathguy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-22 08:12 -0700
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