Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2

From	Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2
Message-ID	<20210717155335.000025ff@reddwarf.jmc> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <scuovq$1q6c$8@news.muc.de> <20210717152448.00006958@reddwarf.jmc> <scupqd$1q6c$9@news.muc.de> <20210717153827.00006057@reddwarf.jmc> <scuqe7$1q6c$11@news.muc.de>
Organization	Jupiter Mining Corp
Date	2021-07-17 15:53 +0100

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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:45:27 -0000 (UTC)
Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> wrote:
> > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:34:53 -0000 (UTC)
> > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:  
> 
> >> Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> wrote:  
> >> > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:20:42 -0000 (UTC)
> >> > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:    
> 
> >> >> Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> wrote:    
> >> >> > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 13:59:02 -0000 (UTC)
> >> >> > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:      
> 
> >> >> >> Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> wrote:      
> >> >> >> > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 13:22:56 -0000 (UTC)
> >> >> >> > Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:        
> >> >> >> >> Not really - you don't have a universal halting decider
> >> >> >> >> here by design. And even if you did, the signature
> >> >> >> >> wouldn't do anything to prevent the existence of the
> >> >> >> >> programs which have an "invalid relationship" with D.
> >> >> >> >>    
> 
> >> >> >> > The point is that this "invalid relationship" is
> >> >> >> > DETECTABLE by the black box decider.        
> 
> >> >> >> I think, but I'm not sure, that such relationships cannot be
> >> >> >> detected, that it's another one of these limitation theorems.
> >> >> >> Ben could probably say more on this.      
> 
> >> >> >> > This "invalid relationship" only exists for programs which
> >> >> >> > are deliberately designed to defeat the decider ....
> >> >> >> >  
> 
> >> >> >> Not at all.  There will be random programs, not deliberately
> >> >> >> designed, which will also have such a relationship with the
> >> >> >> purported decider.      
> 
> >> >> >> > .... which are uninteresting cases because presumably we
> >> >> >> > are using a decider to decide legitimate programs that
> >> >> >> > have serve some useful purpose beyond the HP itself.
> >> >> >> >  
> 
> >> >> >> Then you're not talking about the standard halting problem.
> >> >> >> That shows the impossibility of a decider which can decide
> >> >> >> ANY program. If you limit the scope of the programs handled,
> >> >> >> then you might well construct a practically useful partial
> >> >> >> decider. Difficult, but possible.  There are probably
> >> >> >> theorems about the sort of things that are possible here,
> >> >> >> but I don't know them.  
> 
> 
> >> >> >> None of this has any relevance for the theoremhood of the
> >> >> >> halting problem result itself.      
> 
> >> >> > Disagree: having a third result for invalid pathological
> >> >> > programs whilst novel is still a result, i.e. a decision
> >> >> > reached in finite time.      
> 
> >> >> Let me stress again that there is nothing invalid or
> >> >> pathological about these programs, and they can run and halt or
> >> >> not halt like any other program.  It is only in their
> >> >> relationship with H where they are special, in that H is unable
> >> >> to determine their halting status correctly.    
> 
> >> >> That's assuming it's possible for H to single out such
> >> >> programs.  I don't know if this is possible in the general
> >> >> case, but I suspect it's not. Again, Ben or Richard might know
> >> >> more about this.    
> 
> >> >> But all this is moving away from the halting problem.    
> 
> >> > Disagree: as the decider is a black box if it can always detect
> >> > when it is being invoked, either directly by the trusted operator
> >> > or indirectly by P which does not have the trusted operator's
> >> > private key in order to digitally sign P and I that is passed to
> >> > the decider.    
> 
> >> P might contain a copy of D's algorithm (with or without the key
> >> stuff), and indeed P might contain a copy of the private key.  Such
> >> programs _exist_, whether or not we could as humans create them.
> >> As I say, I don't think it's possible for D to detect an algorithm
> >> which does the same as D.  
> 
> >> But in any case, D is not behaving as a universal halting
> >> detector, in that it doesn't return halts/doesn't halt for all
> >> input programs.  
> 
> > I suggest you read up on what constitutes a black box: if the black
> > box's algorithm has been copied then it is no longer a black box.  
> 
> OK, then black boxes are, at this level of theory, not possible
> objects. Note I didn't say "has been copied", but "contains a copy",
> i.e. just randomly happens to match up.  Such randomly matching
> programs exist.

That assumes that the black box decider cannot detect when P and I are
being passed to something equivalent to the black box; you know what
they say about assumptions, right? The black box decider could
certainly detect if P and I are being passed to something opaque
and treat that as pathological behavior.

/Flibble

Thread

Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 13:50 +0100
  Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 13:22 +0000
    Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 14:37 +0100
      Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 13:59 +0000
        Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:06 +0100
          Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 09:17 -0500
          Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 14:20 +0000
            Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:24 +0100
              Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 14:34 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:38 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 14:45 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:53 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 15:12 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) [ Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:53 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-17 20:38 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 08:04 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 16:12 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 08:25 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 16:28 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 08:37 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:58 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 14:17 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:23 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 17:45 +0100
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 12:08 -0500
            Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:17 -0500
              Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 20:05 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 15:19 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 20:51 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 16:48 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-18 10:57 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-18 07:36 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 08:58 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 08:23 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-19 18:20 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 08:25 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-20 17:35 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 13:26 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-20 18:53 +0000
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 14:04 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 12:27 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 13:49 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 17:14 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 16:27 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 18:20 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 18:34 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 21:04 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 20:24 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 22:06 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 20:21 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 21:26 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 22:53 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 22:02 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 23:24 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 22:12 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-20 23:32 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ DOES NOT HOLD ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 09:11 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ DOES NOT HOLD ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 10:03 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ DOES NOT HOLD ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 11:11 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ DOES NOT HOLD ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 10:42 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ DOES NOT HOLD ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 10:16 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 21:23 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 11:45 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 10:22 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 12:23 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 10:41 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 12:26 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 13:54 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 13:26 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 14:44 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 12:56 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 15:09 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 16:29 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 15:02 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-21 21:08 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ global halt decider ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 12:55 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 11:29 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 12:51 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 12:19 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 13:49 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 13:22 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 14:43 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 13:12 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ][ADD] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 16:07 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ][ADD] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 14:32 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ][ADD] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 16:50 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ][ADD] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 15:07 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 15:06 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 16:22 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 14:38 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 15:57 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 17:21 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 15:53 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-21 16:59 -0600
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 20:21 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 18:53 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 13:07 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-21 15:29 -0500
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) [ Paradox rather than contradiction ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-21 14:08 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 19:33 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 18:07 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 12:14 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? ( H(P,P)==0 is correct ) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 12:06 -0700
                Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 10:39 -0700
          Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-17 15:55 +0100
      Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 09:18 -0500
        Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:20 +0100
          Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:13 -0500
  Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 06:57 -0700
    Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-17 15:17 +0100
      Re: Halting Problem Solved? (Black Box Decider Theory) V2 wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 07:36 -0700

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