Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings

From	olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings
Date	2025-11-18 10:40 -0600
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10fi7ip$1mdfm$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <10fc4l6$2073$1@dont-email.me> <10fdp15$gub4$1@dont-email.me> <10femun$neji$1@dont-email.me> <10ff7m9$s7dk$1@dont-email.me> <10fhgvq$1fppi$1@dont-email.me>

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On 11/18/2025 4:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-11-17 13:24:23 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 11/17/2025 2:38 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-11-17 00:08:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 11/16/2025 3:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-11-15 16:20:21 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/15/2025 4:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-11-14 14:52:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/14/2025 3:11 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-13 15:44:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/13/2025 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-12 12:59:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2025 1:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-11 13:06:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/2025 3:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-10 14:58:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2025 3:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-09 12:56:01 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/9/2025 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-11-08 18:46:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ChatGPT 5.0 fully evaluated all of the details of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how "true on the basis of meaning" can be computed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from finite strings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether "true on the basis of meaning" is computable 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depends on very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much of the meaning. If the meaning is neither true 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or false the it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not make much sense to ask and answer whether it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The meaning of a word is the actual meaning of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> word, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is always true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For most words the actual meaning is neither 'true' nor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'false'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was any evidence of election fraud that could have possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed the outcome of the 2020 presidential election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a question. A question is neither true nor false. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a request for an answer. For that kind of question the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer is either "yes" or "no".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All we need now is a way to make LLM system completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The simplest way to achieve that is to restrict their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language so that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they never claim or assert anything, and never answer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The LLM systems understand how I can make them reliable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't make them better. Only their maitainers can do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The architecture that I proposed guarantees correct
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You have neither specified in which sense your "correct 
>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning"
>>>>>>>>>>> is correct nor proven that it is correct in that sense.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whenever a cycle is detected in the directed graph
>>>>>>>>>> of the evaluation sequence of a formal expression
>>>>>>>>>> occurs you are too confused to understand what any
>>>>>>>>>> of those words mean.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Off topic, as is any statement about people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Within any honest dialogue the prerequisite knowledge
>>>>>>>> of the participants is relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discussion of the knowledge of participants is off-topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then an honest dialogue cannot possibly occur.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it can. A honest dialog is not common but it is possible.
>>>>> For example recent dicussions in sci.physics.relativity have been
>>>>> quite honest.
>>>>
>>>> For any honest dialogue to possibly occur all
>>>> of the participants must have the required
>>>> prerequisite knowledge. For formal discussions
>>>> proof of this is required for participation.
>>>
>>> The discussions in sci.physics.relativity mentioned above show that
>>> honest dicussion is possible even when some participants don't have
>>> much knowledge.
>>
>> When someone is challenging the halting problem
>> it is required that reviewers understand key details
>> of the theory of computation.
> 
> In comp.theory everybody is free to comment any part or aspect of any
> posted meassage regardless of what they know or don't know.
> 

Within an honest dialogue this is not true.

Denigrating my work entirely on the basis
of your own ignorance would still be the
"reckless disregard for the truth" that loses
libel cases.

>> One such key detail is that Turing machine deciders
>> only compute a mapping from their inputs to an
>> accept of reject state on the basis that this input
>> specifies or fails to specify a semantic or syntactic
>> property.
> 
> Actually a Turing machine can only compute a mapping from syntactic
> properties of the input.
> 

That would mean that Rice's theorem is wrong.

In computability theory, Rice's theorem states
that all non-trivial semantic properties of
programs are undecidable. A semantic property
is one about the program's behavior (for
instance, "does the program terminate for all
inputs?"), unlike a syntactic property (for
instance, "does the program contain an
if-then-else statement?"). A non-trivial property
is one that is neither true for every program,
nor false for every program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott

My 28 year goal has been to make
"true on the basis of meaning" computable.

Thread

Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-08 12:46 -0600
  Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-08 21:48 +0000
    Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-08 16:41 -0600
    Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-08 15:23 -0800
    Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-08 15:26 -0800
  Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-09 12:08 +0200
    Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-09 06:56 -0600
      Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-10 11:48 +0200
        Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 08:58 -0600
          Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-11 11:07 +0200
            Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 07:06 -0600
              Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-11 13:24 -0800
              Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-12 09:20 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-12 06:59 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-13 10:46 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-13 09:44 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-13 17:50 +0000
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-13 15:13 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-11-14 05:35 +0800
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-14 11:11 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-14 08:52 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-15 12:29 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 10:20 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-16 11:14 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-16 18:08 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-17 10:38 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:24 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings --- correction olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 07:26 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings --- correction dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-17 08:35 -0500
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-18 12:15 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-18 10:40 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-19 12:05 +0200
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-19 07:05 -0600
                Re: Making true on the basis of meaning computable from finite strings Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-20 11:02 +0200

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