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Anybody out there?

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  Anybody out there? F8BOE <f8boe@bluemail.ch> - 2015-09-16 10:20 +0200
    Re: Anybody out there? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2015-09-16 08:40 +0000
    Re: Anybody out there? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2015-09-16 09:51 +0100
      Re: Anybody out there? Dave Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> - 2015-09-16 20:12 +0100
    Re: Anybody out there? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2015-09-16 09:26 +0000
      Re: Anybody out there? alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-16 11:46 +0000
        Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:18 -0400
          Re: Anybody out there? alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-16 17:39 +0000
            Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:52 -0400
              Re: Anybody out there? Björn Lundin <b.f.lundin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 20:58 +0200
                Re: Anybody out there? Stefan Enzinger <mindoms@aon.at> - 2015-09-18 00:32 +0200
                Re: Anybody out there? druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2015-09-18 09:30 +0100
    Re: Anybody out there? Tony van der Hoff <tony@vanderhoff.org> - 2015-09-16 14:12 +0200
      Re: Anybody out there? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-16 16:02 +0100
      Re: Anybody out there? mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-09-16 17:58 +0100
        Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:56 -0400
    Re: Anybody out there? Norbert Möndjen <n.moendjen@vodafone.de> - 2015-09-18 19:45 +0200
      Re: Anybody out there? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-18 19:31 +0100
        Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 15:13 -0400
          Re: Anybody out there? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-18 22:05 +0100
            Re: Anybody out there? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2015-09-18 16:49 -0500
            Re: Anybody out there? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-18 22:40 +0000
            Re: Anybody out there? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-18 22:29 -0400
              Re: Anybody out there? David James <david@tcs01.demon.co.uk> - 2015-09-21 23:12 +0000
                Re: Anybody out there? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-21 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Anybody out there? David James <david@tcs01.demon.co.uk> - 2015-09-21 23:53 +0000
          Re: Anybody out there? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2015-09-18 16:49 -0500
            Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 11:35 -0400
              Re: Anybody out there? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2015-09-19 19:51 +0300
                Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 13:10 -0400
                  Re: Anybody out there? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-20 10:07 +0100
              Re: Anybody out there? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2015-09-19 17:37 +0000
                Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 14:31 -0400
                  Re: Anybody out there? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-19 23:09 -0400
                    Re: Anybody out there? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2015-10-11 00:21 -0400
                      Re: Anybody out there? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-10-11 12:09 -0400
              Re: Anybody out there? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2015-09-19 14:35 -0500
              Re: Anybody out there? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-20 10:05 +0100
                Re: Anybody out there? mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-09-20 10:56 +0100
                Re: Anybody out there? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-20 10:31 -0400
                  Re: Anybody out there? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 11:12 -0400
                    Re: Anybody out there? jake <jake@127.0.0.1> - 2015-09-28 18:28 +0100
                      Re: Anybody out there? Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 20:33 +0100
                  Re: Anybody out there? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2015-09-20 17:15 +0100

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#9678

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 18/09/15 20:13, rickman wrote:
>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>> forget it!
>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>> (Dell
>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>> 
>>>>   I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>> all that
>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>> work.
>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>> would
>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>> small shit
>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>> need for
>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>> Infact
>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>>> time.
>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>> just
>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>> what
>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>> raspberry
>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>> satelittes to
>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>> 50Kg and
>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>> computing.
>>>> :-)
>>>> 
>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>> 
>>> +1000
>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of RAM if
>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>> 
>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>>> kit.
>> 
>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>> 
> Wasn't it air traffic control or something that still ran on them? Oh,
> no. They were ditched a couple of years back.
> 
> Its nuclear power stations!
> 
> http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/

In the U.S., Air Traffic Control was running on emulated 360s the last time
I looked. The huge software effort to rewrite the assembly language
programs had been stalled for years, and the system objectives were moving
to GPS-based "virtual" routing. 

There's actually an argument to be made for using a resource-constrained
system, since it keeps the designers humble...  ;-)
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

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#9681

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:05:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Wasn't it air traffic control or something that still ran on them? Oh, 
> no. They were ditched a couple of years back.
>
AFAIK UK ATC is still on a pair of 370/195s, arranged to give automatic 
failover. The Swanwick ATC system, currently maintained by Lockheed 
Martin, was originally written by IBM, so it certainly isn't running on 
PDP11s or even VAXen.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#9682

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:05:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:

>
>Its nuclear power stations!
>
>http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/

	Unless they rely upon custom boards that interface with the PDP-11
backplane, I suspect they'll be replaced with some servers running a
virtual machine emulation of the PDP-11...

	As I understand it, that's already been the path of a lot of stuff
associated with NoSuchAgency... In this case, VAX/Alpha OpenVMS
applications that would cost too much to redevelop as native on modern
hardware -- so run an emulated OpenVMS system (though I still wonder how
they emulate the four-levels of VAX protection, on machines that normally
only support user/super levels){and VAX quad-floats probably run slow
also... except for the system doing the emulation likely running much
faster than the original hardware}
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#9707

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:29:41 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:05:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:
> 
> 
>>Its nuclear power stations!
>>
>>http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/06/19/
nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/
> 
> 	Unless they rely upon custom boards that interface with the PDP-11
> backplane, I suspect they'll be replaced with some servers running a
> virtual machine emulation of the PDP-11...
> 
> 	As I understand it, that's already been the path of a lot of stuff
> associated with NoSuchAgency... In this case, VAX/Alpha OpenVMS
> applications that would cost too much to redevelop as native on modern
> hardware -- so run an emulated OpenVMS system (though I still wonder how
> they emulate the four-levels of VAX protection, on machines that
> normally only support user/super levels){and VAX quad-floats probably
> run slow also... except for the system doing the emulation likely
> running much faster than the original hardware}

The new owners of OpenVMS (VMS Software Inc http://www.vmssoftware.com/) 
are busily porting OpenVMS to X86 as we speak. So watch that space ...

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#9708

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:12:40 +0000 (UTC), David James
<david@tcs01.demon.co.uk> declaimed the following:

>
>The new owners of OpenVMS (VMS Software Inc http://www.vmssoftware.com/) 
>are busily porting OpenVMS to X86 as we speak. So watch that space ...

	Wonder what that's done to the "hobbyist" license that used to be
possible.
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#9709

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:42:32 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:12:40 +0000 (UTC), David James
> <david@tcs01.demon.co.uk> declaimed the following:
> 
> 
>>The new owners of OpenVMS (VMS Software Inc http://www.vmssoftware.com/)
>>are busily porting OpenVMS to X86 as we speak. So watch that space ...
> 
> 	Wonder what that's done to the "hobbyist" license that used to be
> possible.

I believe it is still currently available and I think VSI have said they 
plan to continue something similar. 

There has been a lot of discussion on the comp.os.vms newsgroup over the 
last 18 months or so.

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#9679

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>> forget it!
>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM (Dell
>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>> 
>>>   I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>> all that
>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of work.
>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>> would
>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>> small shit
>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>> need for
>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System. Infact
>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>> time.
>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>> just
>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>> what
>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>> raspberry
>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>> satelittes to
>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>> 50Kg and
>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded computing.
>>> :-)
>>> 
>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>> 
>> +1000
>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of RAM if
>> it had had Unix on it...
>> 
>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>> kit.
> 
> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.

Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
mills...

There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control and lab
automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

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#9688

On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>> forget it!
>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM (Dell
>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>
>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>> all that
>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of work.
>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>> would
>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>> small shit
>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>> need for
>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System. Infact
>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>>> time.
>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>> just
>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>> what
>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>> raspberry
>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>> satelittes to
>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>> 50Kg and
>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded computing.
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>
>>> +1000
>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of RAM if
>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>
>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>>> kit.
>>
>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>
> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
> mills...
>
> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control and lab
> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>
> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I 
can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't 
been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?

-- 

Rick

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#9689

On 19.9.15 18:35, rickman wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>>> (Dell
>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>>
>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>> all that
>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>>> work.
>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>> would
>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>> small shit
>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>> need for
>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>>> Infact
>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>>>> time.
>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>>> just
>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>>> what
>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>> raspberry
>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>>> computing.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>>
>>>> +1000
>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of
>>>> RAM if
>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>>
>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>>>> kit.
>>>
>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>>
>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>> mills...
>>
>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control
>> and lab
>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>>
>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>
> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?


You need some bars of TTL. In an emergency, most can be replaced with
74HCT's. A stiffer problem is if somebody breaks a panel switch.

A couple of years ago, I was summoned to a paper mill to mend their
PDP-11. The cure was one 74LS00. It seemed that the biggest problem
was to find somebody still remembering and understanding the computer.

-- 

-TV

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#9690

On 9/19/2015 12:51 PM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 19.9.15 18:35, rickman wrote:
>> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>>>> (Dell
>>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>>> all that
>>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people
>>>>>> get so
>>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>>> small shit
>>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>>> need for
>>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>>>> Infact
>>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>>> raspberry
>>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>>>> computing.
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1000
>>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of
>>>>> RAM if
>>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>>>
>>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of
>>>>> industrial
>>>>> kit.
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a
>>>> piece
>>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>>>
>>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>>> mills...
>>>
>>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control
>>> and lab
>>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>>>
>>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>>
>> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
>> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
>> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?
>
>
> You need some bars of TTL. In an emergency, most can be replaced with
> 74HCT's. A stiffer problem is if somebody breaks a panel switch.
>
> A couple of years ago, I was summoned to a paper mill to mend their
> PDP-11. The cure was one 74LS00. It seemed that the biggest problem
> was to find somebody still remembering and understanding the computer.

I understand the problem of rewriting software that is part of a 
critical system.  It can be *enormously* expensive.  When a system is a 
custom system, it can be very hard to replace it with generic systems. 
I met some guys from NASA a while back who were really just technicians. 
  They talked about a TTL level system for collecting and distributing 
telemetry that could not be replaced by networked workstations designed 
decades later.

It is hard to imaging that it would still be economical to maintain 
computers that you need to fix at the chip level.  But if the 
alternative is spending a million dollars to rewrite the software... I 
guess ancient hardware is the way to go.  I just wish I had held onto my 
LSI-11.  It might be worth something now.

-- 

Rick

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#9700

On 19/09/15 18:10, rickman wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 12:51 PM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 19.9.15 18:35, rickman wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>>>>> (Dell
>>>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>>>> all that
>>>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people
>>>>>>> get so
>>>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>>>> small shit
>>>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>>>> need for
>>>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>>>>> Infact
>>>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and
>>>>>>> trust me
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>>>> raspberry
>>>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>>>>> computing.
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1000
>>>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of
>>>>>> RAM if
>>>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of
>>>>>> industrial
>>>>>> kit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a
>>>>> piece
>>>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>>>> mills...
>>>>
>>>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control
>>>> and lab
>>>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>>>
>>> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
>>> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
>>> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?
>>
>>
>> You need some bars of TTL. In an emergency, most can be replaced with
>> 74HCT's. A stiffer problem is if somebody breaks a panel switch.
>>
>> A couple of years ago, I was summoned to a paper mill to mend their
>> PDP-11. The cure was one 74LS00. It seemed that the biggest problem
>> was to find somebody still remembering and understanding the computer.
>
> I understand the problem of rewriting software that is part of a
> critical system.  It can be *enormously* expensive.  When a system is a
> custom system, it can be very hard to replace it with generic systems. I
> met some guys from NASA a while back who were really just technicians.
>   They talked about a TTL level system for collecting and distributing
> telemetry that could not be replaced by networked workstations designed
> decades later.
>
> It is hard to imaging that it would still be economical to maintain
> computers that you need to fix at the chip level.  But if the
> alternative is spending a million dollars to rewrite the software... I
> guess ancient hardware is the way to go.  I just wish I had held onto my
> LSI-11.  It might be worth something now.
>
Really they are not worth much.

As you point out, the investment is in the systems  and the software 
that surrounds them/runs on them..


-- 
Global warming is the new Margaret Thatcher. There is no ill in the 
world it's not directly responsible for.

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#9691

In article <mtjv7i$8fd$2@dont-email.me>, rickman  <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I 
>can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't 
>been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?

Try googling for pdp11 emulators. You'll find many - with commercial
support. You'll even find PC ISA/PCI cards that emulate the PDP11 buses
and interfaces. There is still a market for this stuff in old industrial
control systems.

A PDP11 is not that complex - unlike modern PCs it's easily within
the scope of a single person to understand the entire circuitry -
if neccessary. Who many people still do, or are willing to learn
may be another matter.

Gordon

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#9692

On 9/19/2015 1:37 PM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <mtjv7i$8fd$2@dont-email.me>, rickman  <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
>> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
>> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?
>
> Try googling for pdp11 emulators. You'll find many - with commercial
> support. You'll even find PC ISA/PCI cards that emulate the PDP11 buses
> and interfaces. There is still a market for this stuff in old industrial
> control systems.
>
> A PDP11 is not that complex - unlike modern PCs it's easily within
> the scope of a single person to understand the entire circuitry -
> if neccessary. Who many people still do, or are willing to learn
> may be another matter.

Oh, I know how simple they are.  Very similar to the MSP430, just a LOT 
bigger.

-- 

Rick

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#9695

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:31:42 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> declaimed
the following:

>
>Oh, I know how simple they are.  Very similar to the MSP430, just a LOT 
>bigger.

	Please... I already have BASICStamp 2, 2p, and 2px boards... a few
Propeller boards, Arduino Uno, Mega2560, Esplora, and Due, two brand new
BeagleBone Blacks, and TIVA 123, 1294, and 129E launchpads... 

	And you are making me think I should add an MSP430 to the stash? <G>

	Has anyone ported a MIL-STD 1750A compliant system to an Altoids tin
yet?
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#9788

>	Please... I already have BASICStamp 2, 2p, and 2px boards... a few
>Propeller boards, Arduino Uno, Mega2560, Esplora, and Due, two brand new
>BeagleBone Blacks, and TIVA 123, 1294, and 129E launchpads...

>	And you are making me think I should add an MSP430 to the stash? <G>

YES! The TI "Launchpad" could've been the next Arduino
with sufficient community support.
They were originally $4.30 (the price is the part number).

The new TI MSP430 has FRAM
    Ferroelectric Random Access Memory (FRAM),
    also known as FeRAM or F-RAM,
    is a memory technology that combines the best of Flash and SRAM.
    It is non-volatile like Flash, but offers fast and low power writes,
    write endurance of 10^15 cycles ...

    http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/ultra-low_power/msp430frxx_fram/what_is_fram.page

Use FERRET electro-power for your designs :-)

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#9791

On 11 Oct 2015 00:21:59 -0400, jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) declaimed the
following:

>
>YES! The TI "Launchpad" could've been the next Arduino
>with sufficient community support.

	Beyond a port of the Arduino IDE into Energia... Getting download
permissions for a non-$$$ CodeComposer Studio is a bit of a pain (and
confusing to determine what license one gets -- as I recall, the MSP430
support on the free version is limited to 32kB; supposedly if used on a
TIVA launchpad with the built-in debug interface one can use the full
256kB/1MB [TM4C123/TM4C129x]; otherwise only 32kB)

	
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#9694

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM (Dell
>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>> all that
>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of work.
>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>> would
>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>> small shit
>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>> need for
>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System. Infact
>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>>>> time.
>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>>> just
>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>>> what
>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>> raspberry
>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded computing.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>> 
>>>> +1000
>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of RAM if
>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>> 
>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>>>> kit.
>>> 
>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>> 
>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>> mills...
>> 
>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control and lab
>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>> 
>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
> 
> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?

I can't speak for PDP11s, but Apple II's were all LS TTL (except for the
processor) and were not only prodigiously reliable, but easy to repair. 

The switching power supply was perhaps the most likely subsystem to fail,
but they are easily replaced. 
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

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#9699

On 19/09/15 16:35, rickman wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>>> (Dell
>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>>
>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>> all that
>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>>> work.
>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>> would
>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people get so
>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>> small shit
>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>> need for
>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>>> Infact
>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of the
>>>>> time.
>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>>> just
>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>>> what
>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>> raspberry
>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>>> computing.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>>
>>>> +1000
>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of
>>>> RAM if
>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>>
>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of industrial
>>>> kit.
>>>
>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a piece
>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>>
>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>> mills...
>>
>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control
>> and lab
>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>>
>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>
> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?
>
Do you know how many WWII Merlin engines there are still in the world?

Despite none having been made since about 1950?

FFS a DEC PDP is just TTL logic and old fashioned DRAM surely?

Oh it started that way but eventually they made a chip, with Harris, and 
the russians ripped it off as well.





-- 
Global warming is the new Margaret Thatcher. There is no ill in the 
world it's not directly responsible for.

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#9701

On 20/09/2015 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/09/15 16:35, rickman wrote:
>> On 9/18/2015 5:49 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2015 2:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 18/09/15 18:45, Norbert Möndjen wrote:
>>>>>> F8BOE wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The RPi or even the RPi2 as a full featured computer... You can
>>>>>>> forget it!
>>>>>>> The RPi2 with Ubuntu Mate is slower than my P III 800MHz 512MB RAM
>>>>>>> (Dell
>>>>>>> GX110) running Mageia... OK wrong example... Perhaps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I have been grown up with zx81, cpc64, commodores c64, amigas and
>>>>>> all that
>>>>>> stuff. Yes they was full fetured computers which have done a lot of
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> Even the first PCs on 8088 or 8086 Basis have done a lot of work and
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be still able to do most of the buisness nowerdays. That people
>>>>>> get so
>>>>>> stupid and lost there imagination so far that they need for every
>>>>>> small shit
>>>>>> a graphical help is a pitty. Up til now nobody could tell me why I
>>>>>> need for
>>>>>> EMail, Calculations, Texting or similar things a graphical System.
>>>>>> Infact
>>>>>> with a Standardeditor and a bit of Tex I am finished in a tenth of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> Yes I am now using a full featured computer with all the shiny things
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> for fun. But I am working in the embedded computing area and trust me
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> we are doing with hardware which is even less powerfull than the
>>>>>> raspberry
>>>>>> is astonishing. 2018 we will start a programm to launsch 900
>>>>>> satelittes to
>>>>>> put cheap internet all over the world. Each satelitte must be below
>>>>>> 50Kg and
>>>>>> have a powerconsumption below 20W. That is a call for embedded
>>>>>> computing.
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ciao Nobbe
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1000
>>>>> A PDP/11 could have been outperformed by an 8086 with 128Mbyte of
>>>>> RAM if
>>>>> it had had Unix on it...
>>>>>
>>>>> And IIRC those PDPS are still there controlling all sorts of
>>>>> industrial
>>>>> kit.
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a bit of a stretch.  The last PDP11 I saw was on a
>>>> piece
>>>> of electronic assembly equipment going to the dump some 10 years ago.
>>>
>>> Probably true for electronic assembly equipment; less true for paper
>>> mills...
>>>
>>> There are still stories of Apple II's being used in process control
>>> and lab
>>> automation--and even the occasional veterinary office. ;-)
>>>
>>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>>
>> How do they fix them when they *do* break?  No computer runs forever.  I
>> can't see how the Nuke plants could be running on PDP11s.  They haven't
>> been made for decades.  Where do they get their spares?
>>
> Do you know how many WWII Merlin engines there are still in the world?
>
> Despite none having been made since about 1950?
>
> FFS a DEC PDP is just TTL logic and old fashioned DRAM surely?
>
> Oh it started that way but eventually they made a chip, with Harris, and
> the russians ripped it off as well.
>
>
My old DG Nova 1200 was pure TTL with a single 74189 ALU. That meant 
each arithmetic op on 16bit words was processed in 4x 4bit nibbles. I 
still regret having to get rid of it.

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#9703

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:05:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:

>
>Oh it started that way but eventually they made a chip, with Harris, and 
>the russians ripped it off as well.

	Everything I've found indicates the LSI version was initially done by
Western Digital...

	Seems even Heathkit had one for sale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathkit_H11
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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