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falling asleep during downloads

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  falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 17:31 -0400
    Re: falling asleep during downloads Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-04-06 18:01 -0400
    Re: falling asleep during downloads dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2015-04-07 08:41 +1000
      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 18:55 -0400
    Re: falling asleep during downloads dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-07 11:30 +1200
      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 20:15 -0400
        Re: falling asleep during downloads dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-07 12:43 +1200
          Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 23:49 -0400
            Re: falling asleep during downloads dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-07 18:08 +1200
              Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-07 14:11 -0400
                Re: falling asleep during downloads dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-09 02:18 +1200
                  Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-08 16:50 -0400
                    Re: falling asleep during downloads Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-04-08 19:00 -0700
                      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-09 11:09 -0400
                  Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-08 17:07 -0400
                    Re: falling asleep during downloads dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-09 11:42 +1200
                      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-08 21:10 -0400
                      Re: falling asleep during downloads Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-09 12:40 +0000
    Re: falling asleep during downloads Ed Anson <EdAnson@comcast.net> - 2015-04-06 21:35 -0400
      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-07 00:36 -0400
    Re: falling asleep during downloads Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-07 02:46 +0000
      Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-07 00:43 -0400
        Re: falling asleep during downloads Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-04-07 10:52 -0400
        Re: falling asleep during downloads Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-08 09:57 +0000
          Re: falling asleep during downloads J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-08 16:46 -0400
            Re: falling asleep during downloads Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-09 12:36 +0000

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#72739 — falling asleep during downloads

I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet 
connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If 
I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download 
by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.

Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from 
going to sleep during a download?

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#72740

On 2015-04-06 17:31, J Burns wrote:
> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
>
> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
> going to sleep during a download?

Various apps have a setting in their preferences to not sleep until some 
event is over.

I simply set Computer Sleep to Never in Energy Saver when I want to be 
sure my Mac doesn't sleep during something important.

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#72741

In article <mfutts$nib$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> 
wrote:

> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet 
> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If 
> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download 
> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
> 
> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from 
> going to sleep during a download?

Yes. Get or make a program to do something, loopingly if necessary, 
that should help fix Yosemite, if it forgets its settings. 

You see, it's not like these Mac OSs have no animal feelings; in spite 
of being told to not sleep, they can get *bored* and sleep anyway. 
What could be more boring than very very slow downloading?

You have it do something interesting to itself. What would interest a 
computer? 

Well, they love, absolutely love, I know from my own experience, going 
through amateur Basic programs with lots of loops, trying to get 
better and better solutions to problems for which it would take an 
eternity to solve *perfectly*. 

You see, if it keeps getting better and better solutions, this keeps 
its hopes alive.  When we despair too much, we sleep. Or at least I 
do. However, with hope comes wakefulness.

-- 
dorayme

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#72742

On 4/6/15, 6:41 PM, dorayme wrote:
> In article <mfutts$nib$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
>> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
>> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
>> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
>>
>> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
>> going to sleep during a download?
>
> Yes. Get or make a program to do something, loopingly if necessary,
> that should help fix Yosemite, if it forgets its settings.
>
> You see, it's not like these Mac OSs have no animal feelings; in spite
> of being told to not sleep, they can get *bored* and sleep anyway.
> What could be more boring than very very slow downloading?
>
> You have it do something interesting to itself. What would interest a
> computer?
>
> Well, they love, absolutely love, I know from my own experience, going
> through amateur Basic programs with lots of loops, trying to get
> better and better solutions to problems for which it would take an
> eternity to solve *perfectly*.
>
> You see, if it keeps getting better and better solutions, this keeps
> its hopes alive.  When we despair too much, we sleep. Or at least I
> do. However, with hope comes wakefulness.
>
I think you're on to something.  I'll buy a Roomba, a bluetooth mouse, 
and some duct tape. When I wake up in the morning, the clean floor will 
remind me to see how my download is coming.  I'd better buy one of those 
"I've fallen and can't get up" devices in case I trip over the Roomba.

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#72744

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet 
> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
> 
> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
> going to sleep during a download?

Which web browser are you using to do the download? If your browser
doesn't tickle the system activity detection mechanism, the system would
be able to sleep during a download. Doing large downloads with a
different browser might be a workaround.

I'm using Safari and I haven't seen this issue, but if there was a new
bug in this area for Mavericks and/or Yosemite I might not have noticed,
because I've been running those systems on a MacBook Pro with Retina
Display, which supports Power Nap (as does the MacBook Air) and has
different Energy Saver behaviour and configuration.

For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
(only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72745

On 4/6/15, 7:30 PM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
>> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
>> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
>> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
>>
>> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
>> going to sleep during a download?
>
> Which web browser are you using to do the download? If your browser
> doesn't tickle the system activity detection mechanism, the system would
> be able to sleep during a download. Doing large downloads with a
> different browser might be a workaround.

I suppose I first saw it downloading Mavericks, not involving a browser. 
Maybe it was downloading Yosemite. I use Safari and Firefox. Now that 
you mention it, I don't know if I've seen it with both browsers. 
Normally, downloading doesn't take so long that I have to worry about 
telling the computer never to sleep.
>
> I'm using Safari and I haven't seen this issue, but if there was a new
> bug in this area for Mavericks and/or Yosemite I might not have noticed,
> because I've been running those systems on a MacBook Pro with Retina
> Display, which supports Power Nap (as does the MacBook Air) and has
> different Energy Saver behaviour and configuration.
>
> For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
> before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
> prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
> (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it.
>
My Mini supports Power Nap. when I turn it on, I can still set the sleep 
delays for the computer and for the display. Apparently I couldn't use 
Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap can be used to keep the 
computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.

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#72749

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/6/15, 7:30 PM, David Empson wrote:
> > J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
> >> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
> >> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
> >> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
> >>
> >> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
> >> going to sleep during a download?
> >
> > Which web browser are you using to do the download? If your browser
> > doesn't tickle the system activity detection mechanism, the system would
> > be able to sleep during a download. Doing large downloads with a
> > different browser might be a workaround.
> 
> I suppose I first saw it downloading Mavericks, not involving a browser.
> Maybe it was downloading Yosemite.

App Store, in that case, or its underlying system components. What
system version were you running at the point you were downloading
Mavericks/Yosemite? If the problem occurred while you were running some
earlier OS X version, then it isn't a new problem in Yosemite.

I downloaded Mavericks on my previous MacBook Pro while it was running
Mountain Lion (and multiple earlier downloads of Lion and Mountain Lion
installers via App Store) and never had a problem with the computer
going to sleep on me.

Subsequent downloads of Mavericks and Yosemite installers have been on
my Retina MacBook Pro, which might behave differently.

> I use Safari and Firefox. Now that you mention it, I don't know if I've
> seen it with both browsers. Normally, downloading doesn't take so long
> that I have to worry about telling the computer never to sleep.
> >
> > I'm using Safari and I haven't seen this issue, but if there was a new
> > bug in this area for Mavericks and/or Yosemite I might not have noticed,
> > because I've been running those systems on a MacBook Pro with Retina
> > Display, which supports Power Nap (as does the MacBook Air) and has
> > different Energy Saver behaviour and configuration.
> >
> > For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
> > before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
> > prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
> > (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it.
> >
> My Mini supports Power Nap.

I hadn't noticed that Apple had added Power Nap support for a wider
range of models, so thanks for drawing my attention to that. For desktop
models which support Power Nap, the computer must be running Mavericks
or later. Notebook models (which I already knew about) need to be
running Mountain Lion or later.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204032

It appears that it no longer requires an Apple-supplied SSD, but is off
by default for desktop computers with a hard drive (including a Fusion
Drive).

> when I turn it on, I can still set the sleep delays for the computer and
> for the display.

That appears to be a distinction between desktop and notebook computers,
as shown in the above Apple support document.

> Apparently I couldn't use Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap
> can be used to keep the computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.

I don't see how Ethernet would be involved. The network interface would
affect "Wake for network access" in older models, since Wake on LAN was
an Ethernet-only feature until "Wake on Wireless" was supported. I think
all models which support Power Nap also support Wake on Wireless, but
haven't found a list yet to confirm.

One of the features supported by Power Nap (while plugged into a power
adapter for a notebook model) is continuing Mac App Store downloads in
the background, but this doesn't extend to downloads in a web browser.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72765

On 4/6/15, 8:43 PM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I suppose I first saw it downloading Mavericks, not involving a browser.
>> Maybe it was downloading Yosemite.
>
> App Store, in that case, or its underlying system components. What
> system version were you running at the point you were downloading
> Mavericks/Yosemite? If the problem occurred while you were running some
> earlier OS X version, then it isn't a new problem in Yosemite.
>
> I downloaded Mavericks on my previous MacBook Pro while it was running
> Mountain Lion (and multiple earlier downloads of Lion and Mountain Lion
> installers via App Store) and never had a problem with the computer
> going to sleep on me.
>
> Subsequent downloads of Mavericks and Yosemite installers have been on
> my Retina MacBook Pro, which might behave differently.

I jumped from a PPC Mini with Tiger to a late 2012 with Mountain Lion. I 
believe with Tiger, I could leave it downloading when I went to bed and 
find it complete in the morning. I think I was downloading Mavericks 
with Mountain Lion, the first time I woke the computer hours later and 
had to resume the download.
>
>> I use Safari and Firefox. Now that you mention it, I don't know if I've
>> seen it with both browsers. Normally, downloading doesn't take so long
>> that I have to worry about telling the computer never to sleep.
>>>
>>> I'm using Safari and I haven't seen this issue, but if there was a new
>>> bug in this area for Mavericks and/or Yosemite I might not have noticed,
>>> because I've been running those systems on a MacBook Pro with Retina
>>> Display, which supports Power Nap (as does the MacBook Air) and has
>>> different Energy Saver behaviour and configuration.
>>>
>>> For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
>>> before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
>>> prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
>>> (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it.
>>>
>> My Mini supports Power Nap.
>
> I hadn't noticed that Apple had added Power Nap support for a wider
> range of models, so thanks for drawing my attention to that. For desktop
> models which support Power Nap, the computer must be running Mavericks
> or later. Notebook models (which I already knew about) need to be
> running Mountain Lion or later.
>
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204032
>
> It appears that it no longer requires an Apple-supplied SSD, but is off
> by default for desktop computers with a hard drive (including a Fusion
> Drive).
>
>> when I turn it on, I can still set the sleep delays for the computer and
>> for the display.
>
> That appears to be a distinction between desktop and notebook computers,
> as shown in the above Apple support document.
>
>> Apparently I couldn't use Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap
>> can be used to keep the computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.
>
> I don't see how Ethernet would be involved. The network interface would
> affect "Wake for network access" in older models, since Wake on LAN was
> an Ethernet-only feature until "Wake on Wireless" was supported. I think
> all models which support Power Nap also support Wake on Wireless, but
> haven't found a list yet to confirm.
>
> One of the features supported by Power Nap (while plugged into a power
> adapter for a notebook model) is continuing Mac App Store downloads in
> the background, but this doesn't extend to downloads in a web browser.
>
When I pressed the ? for Help in Energy Saver Preferences, the Power Nap 
description said
"Enable Power Nap (while on battery power or Ethernet)"

I discovered something else, fooling with Energy Saver Preferences. When 
I'd enter the room in the morning, the LED on my Mini would be 
alternately fading and brightening, showing it was asleep. Sometimes 
when I'd come back a minute later, it would be awake although I hadn't 
touched anything. Mouse motion doesn't seem to wake this computer.

I wondered if network traffic waked it.  I don't know what that traffic 
would have been. I deselected the "Wake for network access" button.  Now 
when I arrive in the morning, the light is out. When I press the power 
button, the screen lights up with a faded appearance and the mouse won't 
work.  In a few seconds, it's ready to go, as if waking from sleep.

I think Apple added that feature to meet European efficiency standards.

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#72776

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/6/15, 8:43 PM, David Empson wrote:
> > J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I suppose I first saw it downloading Mavericks, not involving a browser.
> >> Maybe it was downloading Yosemite.
> >
> > App Store, in that case, or its underlying system components. What
> > system version were you running at the point you were downloading
> > Mavericks/Yosemite? If the problem occurred while you were running some
> > earlier OS X version, then it isn't a new problem in Yosemite.
> >
> > I downloaded Mavericks on my previous MacBook Pro while it was running
> > Mountain Lion (and multiple earlier downloads of Lion and Mountain Lion
> > installers via App Store) and never had a problem with the computer
> > going to sleep on me.
> >
> > Subsequent downloads of Mavericks and Yosemite installers have been on
> > my Retina MacBook Pro, which might behave differently.
> 
> I jumped from a PPC Mini with Tiger to a late 2012 with Mountain Lion. I
> believe with Tiger, I could leave it downloading when I went to bed and
> find it complete in the morning. I think I was downloading Mavericks 
> with Mountain Lion, the first time I woke the computer hours later and
> had to resume the download.

OK, so that suggests App Store in Mountain Lion wasn't keeping the
computer awake while it was doing a download. That could have been a bug
specific to App Store in Mountain Lion, possibly one which only affected
desktop models with Power Nap hardware support (but no software support,
since that didn't arrive until Mavericks for desktop Macs).

If you can get a repeatable example of Apple software in Yosemite
letting your computer go to sleep during a download, you should file
feedback or a bug report with Apple. (I doubt they would care about a
bug which only affects Mountain Lion.)

[...]

> >> Apparently I couldn't use Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap
> >> can be used to keep the computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.
> >
> > I don't see how Ethernet would be involved. The network interface would
> > affect "Wake for network access" in older models, since Wake on LAN was
> > an Ethernet-only feature until "Wake on Wireless" was supported. I think
> > all models which support Power Nap also support Wake on Wireless, but
> > haven't found a list yet to confirm.
> >
> > One of the features supported by Power Nap (while plugged into a power
> > adapter for a notebook model) is continuing Mac App Store downloads in
> > the background, but this doesn't extend to downloads in a web browser.
> >
> When I pressed the ? for Help in Energy Saver Preferences, the Power Nap
> description said
> "Enable Power Nap (while on battery power or Ethernet)"

The help lists options which can potentially be shown in Energy Saver on
one or more Mac models. Specific models will offer a subset of those
options. If your Mac didn't mention Ethernet for the Power Nap option in
the Energy Saver preference pane, then the association with Ethernet
isn't applicable.

That may be a typo in the help: it should say "Enable Power Nap (while
on battery power or power adapter)".

The only connection I can think of between Power Nap and Ethernet might
be if there is a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter involved, and it would use
more power than Wi-Fi, then Energy Saver might show a sub-option for
whether or not to enable Power Nap while connected via Ethernet rather
than Wi-Fi. A web search doesn't reveal any hints that such an option
exists, therefore I'm more inclined to think it is an error in the help.

> I discovered something else, fooling with Energy Saver Preferences. When
> I'd enter the room in the morning, the LED on my Mini would be 
> alternately fading and brightening, showing it was asleep. Sometimes 
> when I'd come back a minute later, it would be awake although I hadn't
> touched anything. Mouse motion doesn't seem to wake this computer.
> 
> I wondered if network traffic waked it.  I don't know what that traffic
> would have been. I deselected the "Wake for network access" button. 

"Wake for network access" refers to a mechanism whereby a device on your
network can wake up the computer by sending it a "magic packet" that
contains a repeating copy of the computer's physical network address. It
is specially recognised by the network controller. This mechanism is
often referred to as "Wake on LAN".

Other network traffic received while your computer is sleeping will not
wake it up.

If you have any Airport base stations (including a Time Capsule) or an
Apple TV on your network, it can act as a "Bonjour sleep proxy". If you
have "Wake for network access" enabled and your computer is advertising
any services via Bonjour (e.g. anything enabled in the Sharing pane of
System Preferences, iTunes is running with a shared library, or
similar), then while your computer is asleep, the base station or Apple
TV takes over advertising the service on behalf of your computer. If
anything on the network tries to connect to that service, the proxy
device sends a "Wake on LAN" packet to wake up your computer. The device
trying to connect to your computer gets no response to its initial
connection attempt, so it tries again, and this time it is able to
connect to your computer because it has woken up.

Airport base stations can also wake up Macs for remote access via Back
to my Mac (again only if "Wake for network access" is enabled).

If changing this option affected the sleep behaviour of your computer,
that probably means something else on your network was trying to connect
to your computer.

An obvious example would be if you happened to bring an iPhone into the
room with you and plugged it into power, and it wanted to do a Wi-Fi
sync with iTunes on the Mac Mini, then that could try to wake up the
computer.

> Now when I arrive in the morning, the light is out. When I press the power
> button, the screen lights up with a faded appearance and the mouse won't
> work.  In a few seconds, it's ready to go, as if waking from sleep.

That sounds like the computer has been in hibernation mode (where it has
written memory to disk and powered down everything apart from the SMC).
When waking up from hibernation, memory is reloaded from disk, which
takes a little while during which the display may be dimmer than normal
and it should show a progress bar. Once it has restored, normal
operation can commence.

> I think Apple added that feature to meet European efficiency standards.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72803

On 4/7/15, 2:08 AM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
> OK, so that suggests App Store in Mountain Lion wasn't keeping the
> computer awake while it was doing a download. That could have been a bug
> specific to App Store in Mountain Lion, possibly one which only affected
> desktop models with Power Nap hardware support (but no software support,
> since that didn't arrive until Mavericks for desktop Macs).
>
> If you can get a repeatable example of Apple software in Yosemite
> letting your computer go to sleep during a download, you should file
> feedback or a bug report with Apple. (I doubt they would care about a
> bug which only affects Mountain Lion.)
>

While downloading with Firefox, I set the sleep delay for 2 minutes. The 
display went black in 4. When I woke it, I saw that the download had 
stopped.  In a moment it resumed, so I guess the remote server hadn't 
given up on me.

My only network connection is Ethernet. My normal sleep delay is 15 
minutes. It's not often that I need a download to continue longer than 
that, after I walk away. In such a situation, I need only tell Energy 
Saver not to sleep.

As I've seen it for 2 and probably 3 versions of OS X, I think it's 
intentional.

>
>>>> Apparently I couldn't use Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap
>>>> can be used to keep the computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.
>>>
>>> I don't see how Ethernet would be involved. The network interface would
>>> affect "Wake for network access" in older models, since Wake on LAN was
>>> an Ethernet-only feature until "Wake on Wireless" was supported. I think
>>> all models which support Power Nap also support Wake on Wireless, but
>>> haven't found a list yet to confirm.
>>>
>>> One of the features supported by Power Nap (while plugged into a power
>>> adapter for a notebook model) is continuing Mac App Store downloads in
>>> the background, but this doesn't extend to downloads in a web browser.
>>>
>> When I pressed the ? for Help in Energy Saver Preferences, the Power Nap
>> description said
>> "Enable Power Nap (while on battery power or Ethernet)"
>
> The help lists options which can potentially be shown in Energy Saver on
> one or more Mac models. Specific models will offer a subset of those
> options. If your Mac didn't mention Ethernet for the Power Nap option in
> the Energy Saver preference pane, then the association with Ethernet
> isn't applicable.
>
> That may be a typo in the help: it should say "Enable Power Nap (while
> on battery power or power adapter)".
>
> The only connection I can think of between Power Nap and Ethernet might
> be if there is a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter involved, and it would use
> more power than Wi-Fi, then Energy Saver might show a sub-option for
> whether or not to enable Power Nap while connected via Ethernet rather
> than Wi-Fi. A web search doesn't reveal any hints that such an option
> exists, therefore I'm more inclined to think it is an error in the help.

Help says if I have Time Machine on and connected by Ethernet, Power Nap 
will wake the computer for hourly backups.
>
>> I discovered something else, fooling with Energy Saver Preferences. When
>> I'd enter the room in the morning, the LED on my Mini would be
>> alternately fading and brightening, showing it was asleep. Sometimes
>> when I'd come back a minute later, it would be awake although I hadn't
>> touched anything. Mouse motion doesn't seem to wake this computer.
>>
>> I wondered if network traffic waked it.  I don't know what that traffic
>> would have been. I deselected the "Wake for network access" button.
>
> "Wake for network access" refers to a mechanism whereby a device on your
> network can wake up the computer by sending it a "magic packet" that
> contains a repeating copy of the computer's physical network address. It
> is specially recognised by the network controller. This mechanism is
> often referred to as "Wake on LAN".
>
> Other network traffic received while your computer is sleeping will not
> wake it up.
>
> If you have any Airport base stations (including a Time Capsule) or an
> Apple TV on your network, it can act as a "Bonjour sleep proxy". If you
> have "Wake for network access" enabled and your computer is advertising
> any services via Bonjour (e.g. anything enabled in the Sharing pane of
> System Preferences, iTunes is running with a shared library, or
> similar), then while your computer is asleep, the base station or Apple
> TV takes over advertising the service on behalf of your computer. If
> anything on the network tries to connect to that service, the proxy
> device sends a "Wake on LAN" packet to wake up your computer. The device
> trying to connect to your computer gets no response to its initial
> connection attempt, so it tries again, and this time it is able to
> connect to your computer because it has woken up.
>
> Airport base stations can also wake up Macs for remote access via Back
> to my Mac (again only if "Wake for network access" is enabled).
>
> If changing this option affected the sleep behaviour of your computer,
> that probably means something else on your network was trying to connect
> to your computer.
>
> An obvious example would be if you happened to bring an iPhone into the
> room with you and plugged it into power, and it wanted to do a Wi-Fi
> sync with iTunes on the Mac Mini, then that could try to wake up the
> computer.

WiFi is off. If my computer were responding to magic packets, I'd 
sometimes find it awake when I first walked in. It's always a few 
seconds later.

Google has its driverless car. Maybe I'm part of Apple's research on a 
driverless computer.  Traditionally, a driverless computer is called a 
television, but what television comes on when you enter the room? This 
is a technological marvel!  Apple stock will soar!

Maybe it's the IR Remote Port on my Mini. In my bedroom, turning the 
17-watt lamp on or off can turn the stereo on or off, across the room. 
I'm not that bright, but maybe I don't have to be very bright to trigger 
a Mini.
>
>> Now when I arrive in the morning, the light is out. When I press the power
>> button, the screen lights up with a faded appearance and the mouse won't
>> work.  In a few seconds, it's ready to go, as if waking from sleep.
>
> That sounds like the computer has been in hibernation mode (where it has
> written memory to disk and powered down everything apart from the SMC).
> When waking up from hibernation, memory is reloaded from disk, which
> takes a little while during which the display may be dimmer than normal
> and it should show a progress bar. Once it has restored, normal
> operation can commence.
>
I suppose it couldn't hibernate when I had "Wake for network access" 
selected. It had to sleep with one eye open.

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#72841

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/7/15, 2:08 AM, David Empson wrote:
> > J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > OK, so that suggests App Store in Mountain Lion wasn't keeping the
> > computer awake while it was doing a download. That could have been a bug
> > specific to App Store in Mountain Lion, possibly one which only affected
> > desktop models with Power Nap hardware support (but no software support,
> > since that didn't arrive until Mavericks for desktop Macs).
> >
> > If you can get a repeatable example of Apple software in Yosemite
> > letting your computer go to sleep during a download, you should file
> > feedback or a bug report with Apple. (I doubt they would care about a
> > bug which only affects Mountain Lion.)
> >
> 
> While downloading with Firefox, I set the sleep delay for 2 minutes. The
> display went black in 4. When I woke it, I saw that the download had 
> stopped.  In a moment it resumed, so I guess the remote server hadn't
> given up on me.

That's Firefox's fault, not Apple's.

I did a similar test. For reference, I'm running Yosemite 10.10.2. I set
my display sleep delay to 1 minute. (My Retina MacBook Pro automatically
sleeps the computer after the display is sleeping if nothing is keeping
it active.) Running from Battery, with Power Nap disabled.

I started a big download from a relatively slow server which would take
more than ten minutes.

Results:

Safari 8.0.4: display went to sleep after a minute. I waited a couple
more minutes and was able to confirm the computer was still awake as I
could ping it from another device. Woke it up and the download had
progressed.

Firefox 37.0.1: display went to sleep after a minute. About two minutes
later the computer had gone to sleep and I couldn't ping it. Woke it up
and the download had paused.

Conclusion: Safari was tickling the activity detector which prevents the
computer going to sleep, even though the display was asleep. Firefox
wasn't, so the system assumed it was idle and went to sleep.

(I don't have any other browsers installed so didn't bother testing
anything else.)

> My only network connection is Ethernet. My normal sleep delay is 15 
> minutes. It's not often that I need a download to continue longer than
> that, after I walk away. In such a situation, I need only tell Energy
> Saver not to sleep.
> 
> As I've seen it for 2 and probably 3 versions of OS X, I think it's 
> intentional.

No, it is an oversight in Firefox, not using the Mac OS X APIs which
tell the system that the application is doing a background task and
sleep should be deferred.

Try Safari instead.

> >>>> Apparently I couldn't use Power Nap without Ethernet; so maybe Power Nap
> >>>> can be used to keep the computer awake while downloading by Ethernet.
> >>>
> >>> I don't see how Ethernet would be involved. The network interface would
> >>> affect "Wake for network access" in older models, since Wake on LAN was
> >>> an Ethernet-only feature until "Wake on Wireless" was supported. I think
> >>> all models which support Power Nap also support Wake on Wireless, but
> >>> haven't found a list yet to confirm.
> >>>
> >>> One of the features supported by Power Nap (while plugged into a power
> >>> adapter for a notebook model) is continuing Mac App Store downloads in
> >>> the background, but this doesn't extend to downloads in a web browser.
> >>>
> >> When I pressed the ? for Help in Energy Saver Preferences, the Power Nap
> >> description said
> >> "Enable Power Nap (while on battery power or Ethernet)"
> >
> > The help lists options which can potentially be shown in Energy Saver on
> > one or more Mac models. Specific models will offer a subset of those
> > options. If your Mac didn't mention Ethernet for the Power Nap option in
> > the Energy Saver preference pane, then the association with Ethernet
> > isn't applicable.
> >
> > That may be a typo in the help: it should say "Enable Power Nap (while
> > on battery power or power adapter)".
> >
> > The only connection I can think of between Power Nap and Ethernet might
> > be if there is a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter involved, and it would use
> > more power than Wi-Fi, then Energy Saver might show a sub-option for
> > whether or not to enable Power Nap while connected via Ethernet rather
> > than Wi-Fi. A web search doesn't reveal any hints that such an option
> > exists, therefore I'm more inclined to think it is an error in the help.
> 
> Help says if I have Time Machine on and connected by Ethernet, Power Nap
> will wake the computer for hourly backups.

Again, the help is generic and not specific to your model, as it says
right on that page in the help:

"Important: The table below lists all of the options available in the
Energy Saver pane of System Preferences. Because the features of the
computer you're using determine the options shown, you may not see all
the options listed below."

I'm pretty sure it is a typo in the help, and both "Ethernet" references
in the Enable Power Nap entry should say "power adapter". Having TM
backups while in Power Nap limited to Ethernet makes no sense as there
is no technical reason for such a limitation.

Ignoring the help and looking at System Preferences > Energy Saver
(which shows the options that apply to your Mac model):

On my MacBook Pro, in the Energy Saver settings for Power Adapter, the
Power Nap option lists Time Machine backups as one of the things it will
do, but in the settings for Battery, the Power Nap option doesn't
mention Time Machine backups.

Therefore Time Machine backups can only be done while in Power Nap if
the power adapter is plugged in.

For a desktop Mac there is no battery, so there is only one set of
Energy Saver settings, corresponding to the "Power Adapter" settings for
a notebook model. If the desktop Mac supports Power Nap, the text in
Energy Saver will mention Time Machine backups as one of the things that
it can do, without any warning about it only working over Ethernet.

In any case, Power Nap has nothing to do with Firefox letting the
computer go to sleep during a download.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72882

On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> While downloading with Firefox, I set the sleep delay for 2 minutes. The
>> display went black in 4. When I woke it, I saw that the download had
>> stopped.  In a moment it resumed, so I guess the remote server hadn't
>> given up on me.
>
> That's Firefox's fault, not Apple's.
>
> I did a similar test. For reference, I'm running Yosemite 10.10.2. I set
> my display sleep delay to 1 minute. (My Retina MacBook Pro automatically
> sleeps the computer after the display is sleeping if nothing is keeping
> it active.) Running from Battery, with Power Nap disabled.
>
> I started a big download from a relatively slow server which would take
> more than ten minutes.
>
> Results:
>
> Safari 8.0.4: display went to sleep after a minute. I waited a couple
> more minutes and was able to confirm the computer was still awake as I
> could ping it from another device. Woke it up and the download had
> progressed.
>
> Firefox 37.0.1: display went to sleep after a minute. About two minutes
> later the computer had gone to sleep and I couldn't ping it. Woke it up
> and the download had paused.
>
> Conclusion: Safari was tickling the activity detector which prevents the
> computer going to sleep, even though the display was asleep. Firefox
> wasn't, so the system assumed it was idle and went to sleep.
>
> (I don't have any other browsers installed so didn't bother testing
> anything else.)
>
>> My only network connection is Ethernet. My normal sleep delay is 15
>> minutes. It's not often that I need a download to continue longer than
>> that, after I walk away. In such a situation, I need only tell Energy
>> Saver not to sleep.
>>
>> As I've seen it for 2 and probably 3 versions of OS X, I think it's
>> intentional.
>
> No, it is an oversight in Firefox, not using the Mac OS X APIs which
> tell the system that the application is doing a background task and
> sleep should be deferred.
>
> Try Safari instead.
>

Thanks. In the past, I've had sleep interrupt big Apple update 
downloads, but I don't recall any trouble with Safari.

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#72900

On 2015-04-08 20:50:15 +0000, J Burns said:

> On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
>> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> While downloading with Firefox, I set the sleep delay for 2 minutes. The
>>> display went black in 4. When I woke it, I saw that the download had
>>> stopped.  In a moment it resumed, so I guess the remote server hadn't
>>> given up on me.
>> 
>> That's Firefox's fault, not Apple's.
>> 
>> I did a similar test. For reference, I'm running Yosemite 10.10.2. I set
>> my display sleep delay to 1 minute. (My Retina MacBook Pro automatically
>> sleeps the computer after the display is sleeping if nothing is keeping
>> it active.) Running from Battery, with Power Nap disabled.
>> 
>> I started a big download from a relatively slow server which would take
>> more than ten minutes.
>> 
>> Results:
>> 
>> Safari 8.0.4: display went to sleep after a minute. I waited a couple
>> more minutes and was able to confirm the computer was still awake as I
>> could ping it from another device. Woke it up and the download had
>> progressed.
>> 
>> Firefox 37.0.1: display went to sleep after a minute. About two minutes
>> later the computer had gone to sleep and I couldn't ping it. Woke it up
>> and the download had paused.
>> 
>> Conclusion: Safari was tickling the activity detector which prevents the
>> computer going to sleep, even though the display was asleep. Firefox
>> wasn't, so the system assumed it was idle and went to sleep.
>> 
>> (I don't have any other browsers installed so didn't bother testing
>> anything else.)
>> 
>>> My only network connection is Ethernet. My normal sleep delay is 15
>>> minutes. It's not often that I need a download to continue longer than
>>> that, after I walk away. In such a situation, I need only tell Energy
>>> Saver not to sleep.
>>> 
>>> As I've seen it for 2 and probably 3 versions of OS X, I think it's
>>> intentional.
>> 
>> No, it is an oversight in Firefox, not using the Mac OS X APIs which
>> tell the system that the application is doing a background task and
>> sleep should be deferred.
>> 
>> Try Safari instead.
> 
> Thanks. In the past, I've had sleep interrupt big Apple update 
> downloads, but I don't recall any trouble with Safari.

...and now you can update to OSX10.10.3. It was surprisingly quick and 
painless. Safari is at 8.0.5, and Photos is here. I will poke at it to 
see what sort of reaction I get, but I work with a Creative Cloud 
workflow with Lightroom & PS. I might use Photos for managing my iPhone 
pics.
-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

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#72929

On 4/8/15, 10:00 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>> Thanks. In the past, I've had sleep interrupt big Apple update
>> downloads, but I don't recall any trouble with Safari.
>
> ...and now you can update to OSX10.10.3. It was surprisingly quick and
> painless. Safari is at 8.0.5, and Photos is here. I will poke at it to
> see what sort of reaction I get, but I work with a Creative Cloud
> workflow with Lightroom & PS. I might use Photos for managing my iPhone
> pics.
> --
My computer stayed awake and finished the download.  In the Dock, the 
Photos icon is easier to spot than the iPhotos icon.

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#72886

On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
> In any case, Power Nap has nothing to do with Firefox letting the
> computer go to sleep during a download.

I wondered how the issue of Power Nap arose. I looked back. You said,

"For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
(only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it."

Mine supports Power Nap and lets me adjust the computer sleep display 
from 1 minute to never.  I wonder why yours won't allow it. (It's beside 
the point.  Thanks for your help.)

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#72890

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
> > In any case, Power Nap has nothing to do with Firefox letting the
> > computer go to sleep during a download.
> 
> I wondered how the issue of Power Nap arose. I looked back. You said,
> 
> "For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
> before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
> prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
> (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it."

After I wrote that, I discovered that only applied to notebook models
which support Power Nap. Desktop models still have separate display and
computer sleep settings.

> Mine supports Power Nap and lets me adjust the computer sleep display
> from 1 minute to never.  I wonder why yours won't allow it. (It's beside
> the point.  Thanks for your help.)

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an Apple support article which
shows screen shots of Energy Saver for desktop and notebook models,
which clearly shows the difference.

As to the reason why there is a difference, I can only speculate.
Perhaps Apple thinks that desktop Macs are more likely to be used in a
situation where they need to be configurable with a longer computer
sleep than display sleep.

I can see it being a limitation for people who use a notebook as a
desktop replacement and want to be able to do background processing for
a limited time after display sleep. Effectively the setting is either
"just after display sleep" or "never".

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72893

On 4/8/15, 7:42 PM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
>>> In any case, Power Nap has nothing to do with Firefox letting the
>>> computer go to sleep during a download.
>>
>> I wondered how the issue of Power Nap arose. I looked back. You said,
>>
>> "For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
>> before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
>> prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
>> (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it."
>
> After I wrote that, I discovered that only applied to notebook models
> which support Power Nap. Desktop models still have separate display and
> computer sleep settings.

Aw, you got me!  :)

>
>> Mine supports Power Nap and lets me adjust the computer sleep display
>> from 1 minute to never.  I wonder why yours won't allow it. (It's beside
>> the point.  Thanks for your help.)
>
> Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an Apple support article which
> shows screen shots of Energy Saver for desktop and notebook models,
> which clearly shows the difference.
>
> As to the reason why there is a difference, I can only speculate.
> Perhaps Apple thinks that desktop Macs are more likely to be used in a
> situation where they need to be configurable with a longer computer
> sleep than display sleep.
>
> I can see it being a limitation for people who use a notebook as a
> desktop replacement and want to be able to do background processing for
> a limited time after display sleep. Effectively the setting is either
> "just after display sleep" or "never".
>
There are some good movies with expired copyrights. (Buster Keaton!) If 
I downloaded with Firefox and I predicted that I'd be leaving it to 
download longer than my normal delay, I could lengthen the computer 
delay and shorten the display delay.

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#72918

In message <1m2lz67.1h4z3x31jchtrdN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz> 
  David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

>> On 4/8/15, 10:18 AM, David Empson wrote:
>> > In any case, Power Nap has nothing to do with Firefox letting the
>> > computer go to sleep during a download.
>> 
>> I wondered how the issue of Power Nap arose. I looked back. You said,
>> 
>> "For computers which support Power Nap, you can't configure a delay
>> before sleeping the computer, only the display. There is a setting to
>> prevent the computer sleeping automatically while the display is asleep
>> (only while running from power adapter), but I haven't enabled it."

> After I wrote that, I discovered that only applied to notebook models
> which support Power Nap. Desktop models still have separate display and
> computer sleep settings.

>> Mine supports Power Nap and lets me adjust the computer sleep display
>> from 1 minute to never.  I wonder why yours won't allow it. (It's beside
>> the point.  Thanks for your help.)

> Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an Apple support article which
> shows screen shots of Energy Saver for desktop and notebook models,
> which clearly shows the difference.

> As to the reason why there is a difference, I can only speculate.
> Perhaps Apple thinks that desktop Macs are more likely to be used in a
> situation where they need to be configurable with a longer computer
> sleep than display sleep.

Which is of course the case. My desktop computers are all set to sleep
the display, but to never sleep the computer.

> I can see it being a limitation for people who use a notebook as a
> desktop replacement and want to be able to do background processing for
> a limited time after display sleep. Effectively the setting is either
> "just after display sleep" or "never".

You set display sleep to never and manually turn off the display with
control-shift-eject (or control-shift-power on the newer laptops with
no eject key).

-- 
Ninety percent of true love is acute, ear-burning embarrassment. --Wyrd
Sisters

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#72754

On 4/6/15 5:31 PM, J Burns wrote:
> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
>
> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
> going to sleep during a download?

When needed, I use an app called Caffeine. It adds an icon to the menu 
bar. A single click caffeinates my Mac, keeping it awake until I click 
again. It's a free download.
http://caffeine.en.softonic.com/mac

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#72769

On 4/6/15, 9:35 PM, Ed Anson wrote:
> On 4/6/15 5:31 PM, J Burns wrote:
>> I have Yosemite with "Wake for network access" checked. My internet
>> connection speed is 1 GB per hour. Apple downloads may be several GB. If
>> I forget to set my Mini never to sleep, it will interrupt the download
>> by sleeping. There were older versions of OS X that would stay awake.
>>
>> Besides telling my Mac never to sleep, is there a way to keep it from
>> going to sleep during a download?
>
> When needed, I use an app called Caffeine. It adds an icon to the menu
> bar. A single click caffeinates my Mac, keeping it awake until I click
> again. It's a free download.
> http://caffeine.en.softonic.com/mac
>
>
Thanks. My wide screen has lots of room for menu bar icons. As I don't 
often need to keep my Mac awake for long downloads, I guess I'll use 
Energy Saver Preferences.

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