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Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite

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  Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-29 19:21 -0700
    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2014-07-30 14:35 +1200
      Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-29 22:03 -0700
        Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2014-07-30 17:55 +1200
          Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-30 00:26 -0700
            Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Bruce Esquibel <bje@ripco.com> - 2014-07-30 12:21 +0000
              Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-30 13:10 +0000
              Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-30 07:57 -0700
            Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-30 13:06 +0000
              Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-30 07:58 -0700
                Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-30 15:25 +0000
                  Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-30 18:03 -0700
                    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-31 01:56 +0000
                Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-08-01 15:23 +0000
            Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-30 13:13 +0000
    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-07-30 02:36 +0000
      Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-07-29 22:10 -0700
        Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-08-01 15:16 +0000
          Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2014-08-01 08:46 -0700
            Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-08-01 15:48 +0000
            Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-08-02 00:40 +0000
              Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> - 2014-08-02 12:57 +0200
                Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-08-02 07:04 -0400
                  Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> - 2014-08-02 13:42 +0200
                    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-08-02 12:52 +0000
                      Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2014-08-02 09:00 -0400
                    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-08-02 13:36 +0000
                    Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2014-08-02 13:48 -0400
                      Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2014-08-03 08:43 +1000
                Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-08-02 12:48 +0000
                  Re: Can't receive mail with a POP account with Yosemite MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> - 2014-08-02 15:37 +0200

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#62821

Okay, so one time? In band camp? Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> was all, like: 
 --> 	 Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:46:29 -0700 <010820140846298243%michelle@michelle.org>
> In article <slrnltnbrd.1to1.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> BTW, I would never ever ever check a pop account with beta software,
>> since you have 0 recovery options if there is a problem.

> I have options set to keep the message on the server for one week.

And? If there is a bug in the beta code that ignores that, screws it up,
mauls it, then what do you do?

At least with IMAP the mail is going to almost certainly exist on other
machines or devices.

-- 
"It's unacceptable to think" - George W Bush 15/Sep/2006

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#62866

Am 02.08.14 um 02:40 schrieb Lewis:

> At least with IMAP the mail is going to almost certainly exist on other
> machines or devices.

I'm not using IMAP, but just out of curiosity - isn't there a 
(technical) way that (any) email client software can actually delete a 
mail, even from an IMAP account, if the user wishes to do so? Or are 
IMAP mails entirely undeletable by manual activity from the user/client? 
(I don't know, so that's a real question...)

And: Is it possible to set rules in Apple Mail or Thunderbird etc. to 
automatically delete certain mails, once they pass some filter?

Because - if you accept that beta software may accidentally kill mails 
through POP3 access if it fails, then why would beta software never kill 
a mail through IMAP access if this deleting process is actually 
something that the software is capable of in general?

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#62867

In article <lrig5s$122$1@dont-email.me>, MartinC
<noreply@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > At least with IMAP the mail is going to almost certainly exist on other
> > machines or devices.
> 
> I'm not using IMAP, but just out of curiosity - isn't there a 
> (technical) way that (any) email client software can actually delete a 
> mail, even from an IMAP account, if the user wishes to do so? Or are 
> IMAP mails entirely undeletable by manual activity from the user/client? 
> (I don't know, so that's a real question...)

of course they can.

> And: Is it possible to set rules in Apple Mail or Thunderbird etc. to 
> automatically delete certain mails, once they pass some filter?

yes, but don't expect filters to work properly at all times in apple
mail. i don't know about thunderbird.

> Because - if you accept that beta software may accidentally kill mails 
> through POP3 access if it fails, then why would beta software never kill 
> a mail through IMAP access if this deleting process is actually 
> something that the software is capable of in general?

it could, and it's not just with beta software either.

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#62868

Am 02.08.14 um 13:04 schrieb nospam:

> it could, and it's not just with beta software either.

Thanks for your quick reply / explanation, it was exactly what I thought...

That was actually my point, once a software is able to delete mails, 
then one might be aware of dangers if you use beta and/or buggy software 
on your mail account.

But that won't be a problem of POP3 vs. IMAP. There's a function to 
delete a mail with POP3, and there's a function to delete a mail with 
IMAP, and if you consider that the "delete" function may run wild, it 
makes no difference which protocol will then deliver the wrong "delete" 
command.

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#62871

Okay, so one time? In band camp? MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> was all, like: 
 --> 	 Sat, 02 Aug 2014 13:42:55 +0200 <lriirv$h19$1@dont-email.me>
> Am 02.08.14 um 13:04 schrieb nospam:

>> it could, and it's not just with beta software either.

> Thanks for your quick reply / explanation, it was exactly what I thought...

But it's nospam, so it was almost certainly incorrect.

> That was actually my point, once a software is able to delete mails, 
> then one might be aware of dangers if you use beta and/or buggy software 
> on your mail account.

Yep, almost certainly wrong. Read my reply.

> But that won't be a problem of POP3 vs. IMAP. There's a function to 
> delete a mail with POP3, and there's a function to delete a mail with 
> IMAP, and if you consider that the "delete" function may run wild, it 
> makes no difference which protocol will then deliver the wrong "delete" 
> command.

It does make a difference because there is no function to delete a mail
message in IMAP. There is a function to mark a message for deletion, and
there is an entirely separate function that actually asks the server to
delete all the marked messages in a mailbox.

Two actions, much harder to imagine a big that would trigger them both.

-- 
Is a vegetarian permitted to eat animal crackers?

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#62872

In article <slrnltpno6.1c6s.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> > But that won't be a problem of POP3 vs. IMAP. There's a function to 
> > delete a mail with POP3, and there's a function to delete a mail with 
> > IMAP, and if you consider that the "delete" function may run wild, it 
> > makes no difference which protocol will then deliver the wrong "delete" 
> > command.
> 
> It does make a difference because there is no function to delete a mail
> message in IMAP. There is a function to mark a message for deletion, and
> there is an entirely separate function that actually asks the server to
> delete all the marked messages in a mailbox.

with imap, messages can be lost when moving between folders, either on
the server or to a local folder, or even just syncing to one. 

when i was evaluating which mail app to use post-eudora, one of them
(don't remember which) completely lost an email. it was a test message
so no big deal, but needless to say, that app was immediately rejected.

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#62874

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.mac.apps.]
On 2014-08-02, MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Am 02.08.14 um 13:04 schrieb nospam:
>
>> it could, and it's not just with beta software either.
>
> Thanks for your quick reply / explanation, it was exactly what I thought...
>
> That was actually my point, once a software is able to delete mails, 
> then one might be aware of dangers if you use beta and/or buggy software 
> on your mail account.
>
> But that won't be a problem of POP3 vs. IMAP. There's a function to 
> delete a mail with POP3, and there's a function to delete a mail with 
> IMAP, and if you consider that the "delete" function may run wild, it 
> makes no difference which protocol will then deliver the wrong "delete" 
> command.

One major difference is that many mail clients come with a default
behavior where they delete messages from POP servers as soon as they are
received by the mail client, while they do *not* delete IMAP messages as
soon as they are received.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#62896

In article <lriirv$h19$1@dont-email.me>,
 MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> Am 02.08.14 um 13:04 schrieb nospam:
> 
> > it could, and it's not just with beta software either.
> 
> Thanks for your quick reply / explanation, it was exactly what I thought...
> 
> That was actually my point, once a software is able to delete mails, 
> then one might be aware of dangers if you use beta and/or buggy software 
> on your mail account.

It's also possible for the Mail app to delete all the files on in your 
home folder. But some types of bugs are more likely than others.

In the case of POP clients, there's a common option whether to delete 
files from the server after downloading. And a mistake in implementing 
this option is somewhat plausible.

IMAP clients don't typically have this option, so there's much less 
chance that the programmer will accidentally do it.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

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#62926

In article <barmar-3FF566.13480702082014@news.eternal-september.org>,
 Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In the case of POP clients, there's a common option whether to delete 
> files from the server after downloading

And a choice for a time delay before doing so.

-- 
dorayme

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#62870

Okay, so one time? In band camp? MartinC <noreply@nospam.invalid> was all, like: 
 --> 	 Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:57:00 +0200 <lrig5s$122$1@dont-email.me>
> Am 02.08.14 um 02:40 schrieb Lewis:

>> At least with IMAP the mail is going to almost certainly exist on other
>> machines or devices.

> I'm not using IMAP, but just out of curiosity - isn't there a 
> (technical) way that (any) email client software can actually delete a 
> mail, even from an IMAP account, if the user wishes to do so? Or are 
> IMAP mails entirely undeletable by manual activity from the user/client? 
> (I don't know, so that's a real question...)

Yes, it is possible. However, that deleted mail is still going to exist
on the other machines before they sync to delete, for example.

Also, in general, IMAP mail is MARKED as deleted, but is not actually
deleted until some further action is taken. It would take a look more
effort to really remove a message, and it's hard to imagine it happening
accidentally.

> And: Is it possible to set rules in Apple Mail or Thunderbird etc. to 
> automatically delete certain mails, once they pass some filter?

To mark the messages as deleted, yes. To actually delete them? I don't
think so.

> Because - if you accept that beta software may accidentally kill mails 
> through POP3 access if it fails, then why would beta software never kill 
> a mail through IMAP access if this deleting process is actually 
> something that the software is capable of in general?

Because the deleting, moving, tagging, etc of IMAP messages is done by
the server which is *not* running beta software.

-- 
and I swear it happened just like this: / a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss,
the Gates of Love they budged an inch / I can't say much has happened
since / but CLOSING TIME

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#62875

Am 02.08.14 um 14:48 schrieb Lewis:

> Yes, it is possible. However, that deleted mail is still going to exist
> on the other machines before they sync to delete, for example.

Thank you, didn't know that, but is good to know.

I know the POP3 vs IMAP war, and I know the Pros & Cons, but the fact 
that it is impossible to delete a certain mail immediately (even if only 
one computer accesses the account, and the deletion is intended) wasn't 
obvious.

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